Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 24, 2014 22:11 UTC (Thu) by javispedro (subscriber, #83660) [Link]
So basically, one APN is used for the phone and the other one is used for tethering. Old Nokia devices offered this functionality -- Symbian's over-engineered network stack allowed this without any problem. On Linux/Maemo I still have a similar setup except that it just switches the APN for all traffic when tethering, not just PC traffic.
This is probably the reason people may believe this to be a feature and not bug: it allows the above usecase.
The blog post also fails to explain how carriers actually detect tethering. Just because it is routed through a different interface from Linux PoV means nothing .... unless Android also uses a different APN for the different interfaces. Which would be a (intentional) bug in the APN/Carrier DB, not in the kernel or routing configuration.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 24, 2014 22:16 UTC (Thu) by Tara_Li (guest, #26706) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 24, 2014 22:27 UTC (Thu) by zyga (subscriber, #81533) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 4:15 UTC (Fri) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 8:26 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]
Because people are stupid. ISPs (including, no, especially mobile ones) are overselling.
Which means that they can provide fast Internet to Alice, Bob, or any other customer (out of millions they have) but when many of them demand such fast access simultaneously—they are in trouble.
Now, it's not impossible to create “fair” pricing even in such situation—that's how servers are billed, after all! You will have monthly limit, “sustained percentange” of bandwidth you can use and short burst allowed and carefully described in the contract. The only problem: customers will not be able to follow it! Most of them will not be able to even understand it.
That's why they invent descriptions like “traffic is free and unlimited except for these few rules”—but these rules “also” must be in terms layman can understand. P2P (especially if you list them on the dedicated pages) s/he could understand, tethering s/he could understand, but if you'll start talking TCP, UDP, etc then his (or her) eyes will glaze over and all understanding will evaporate.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 12:17 UTC (Fri) by michaeljt (subscriber, #39183) [Link]
> Which means that they can provide fast Internet to Alice, Bob, or any other customer (out of millions they have) but when many of them demand such fast access simultaneously—they are in trouble.
Why does the Linux OOM killer come to my mind when I read your comment?
Yet another reason...
Posted Apr 25, 2014 2:04 UTC (Fri) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]
Yet another reason...
Posted Apr 25, 2014 2:12 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]
Yet another reason...
Posted Apr 25, 2014 3:28 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
Yet another reason...
Posted Apr 25, 2014 13:11 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (guest, #60784) [Link]
s/Much of t/T/; # there are fewer IP addresses than humans
Yet another reason...
Posted Apr 25, 2014 13:58 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
See, that was easy. No need for fancy IPv6.
Yet another reason...
Posted Apr 25, 2014 14:56 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]
Yet another reason...
Posted Apr 25, 2014 19:06 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
Here is one totally reasonable thing to do, that many people could probably use for small businesses but don't realise is an option:
You plug a USB 3G dongle with a SIM from your ISP into the router that does your DSL. If the DSL fails (e.g. backhoe tore up the line, engineer mistook "no dial tone" for "line not in use", power cut to DSLAM) the router drops you onto 3G radio with the same addresses. For a few seconds packets fall on the floor in some telco data centre, but then the routes fix up and you're back on line "as normal", just at lower bandwidth (probably) and higher cost (almost certainly).
To get this obviously you need an ISP that knows what they're doing, and has an agreement with a wireless carrier to do virtual carrier service. This (virtual carriers) is fairly common in Europe, but maybe less so in the US. When your dongle "dials up" the real cell carrier takes your outgoing packets and passes them to your ISP to actually deliver, and vice versa for incoming packets. Tada!
Yet another reason...
Posted Apr 26, 2014 8:37 UTC (Sat) by xanni (subscriber, #361) [Link]
No, APNIC is huge
Posted Apr 25, 2014 19:53 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
India and China are in APNIC's region. APNIC controls about 25% of the IPv4 unicast address space - slightly more than RIPE (the European RIR) and slightly less than ARIN (the North American RIR). Up until IANA's IPv4 allocation function terminated due to exhaustion APNIC was treated exactly the same as ARIN, or RIPE, or indeed AfriNIC. If they needed more addresses, they applied and got them. Most RIRs did this a few times each year. Simple as.
In 2008, a Chinese ISP that needed say 40 million (routable) IPv4 addresses could have obtained them by simply sending the appropriate application paperwork and fees to their RIR. And the same for a US ISP. Today, in 2014, neither will get this allocation because both RIRs are in their exhaustion phase and will provide applicants with only a more modest allocation to help them manage NAT64 or similar transition arrangements.
Yet another reason...
Posted Apr 27, 2014 2:34 UTC (Sun) by javispedro (subscriber, #83660) [Link]
Yeah, it matters: dumb consumers will quickly notice carrier B "empties their batteries faster" and never notice the benefits of real unNATed internet.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 9:17 UTC (Fri) by flaviogrossi (guest, #96820) [Link]
it works because it forces a different (hardcoded, meaning not configurable) apn too.
if i remember correctly (cannot double check this right now), this is when the change was made
https://android.googlesource.com/platform/frameworks/base...
and then there's an xml file with the hardcoded apn based on connection type
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 27, 2014 2:29 UTC (Sun) by javispedro (subscriber, #83660) [Link]
but as said above, there are valid use cases for having different APNs for tethering and non tethering traffic.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 27, 2014 18:44 UTC (Sun) by kpc (subscriber, #46024) [Link]
This looks like the code to figure out which interface to use for routing tethered traffic: frameworks/base/services/java/com/android/server/connectivity/Tethering.javapublic static final int TYPE_MOBILE_DUN
Added in API level 8
A DUN-specific Mobile data connection. This network type may use the same network interface as TYPE_MOBILE or it may use a different one. This is sometimes by the system when setting up an upstream connection for tethering so that the carrier is aware of DUN traffic.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 10:51 UTC (Fri) by tdz (subscriber, #58733) [Link]
DPI. Carriers will look into network packets for application data that usually only happens on the desktops, notebooks, etc. Certain application protocols or browser ID strings are indicators.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 18:04 UTC (Fri) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 26, 2014 9:06 UTC (Sat) by tdz (subscriber, #58733) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 26, 2014 12:28 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]
Surprisingly enough no, it's not an indicator of anything. There are tons of applications on Google Play which offer VPN services: Hotspot Shielf, Hideman, Hideninja, Vpn One Click and others.
Sure, they could not help you to connect to your corporate VPN, but, well, anyone can use them. And the very fact that Android quite explicitly offers VPN Service means that there should be bazillion similar corporate in-house programs, too.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted May 5, 2014 13:53 UTC (Mon) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]
I seldomly use tethering, but I use VPN all the time to access internal company services from abroad, or to access files on my home network from my Wifi DMZ.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 27, 2014 2:31 UTC (Sun) by javispedro (subscriber, #83660) [Link]
The APN DB bug seems much more likely.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 16:08 UTC (Fri) by sadboy (subscriber, #94691) [Link]
There are many ways to detect NAT, the simplest of which involve looking at TTL timestamps. Other more resource intensive methods may involve heuristics based traffic analysis. It all depends on how morally depraved your ISP is.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 24, 2014 22:27 UTC (Thu) by plugwash (subscriber, #29694) [Link]
If you agreed to a contract that says "unlimited data but only on the device itself" shouldn't you be following that contract?
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 24, 2014 22:32 UTC (Thu) by zyga (subscriber, #81533) [Link]
The fact is that this is a mechanism to extort more money out of something that is vague at best, misleading or outright illegal (in some cases) in practice.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 0:49 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 8:25 UTC (Fri) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]
Yeah, carriers have redefined the meaning of "unlimited" - there is always a limit.
When every possible contract will be labelled as "unlimited" (because, why would they stop somewhere?), the word "unlimited" will probably lose its marketing value and they will move to a new word.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 28, 2014 11:01 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]
A few months back I noticed that Sky have/had billboards proudly advertising their 'Super Unlimited' broadband connections. I wasn't quite close enough to make out the small print detailing what the actual limits are.
(In case it's not clear, this is not a joke.)
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 8:40 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]
It may say so in the legalese but the adverts say "unlimited data" *period*.
Wow. Really? Most adverts I've seen say "unlimited data" *asterisk*. Said asterisk then usually points out to something written with very-very-VERY small letters (often it points to some other page on the website).
I've yet to see a contract that says that.
This is quite strange. All contracts I've seen say that. Well, that say “unlimited data if you follow this bazillion rules” and then somewhere in second note to fiveth table in third attachment you can “easily” find out that tethering is actually forbidden—but it's all the same from the legal POV.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 11:12 UTC (Fri) by michaeljt (subscriber, #39183) [Link]
My subjective impression was that, at least in my part of the world, the legal point of view is increasingly taking into account whether or not the person entering into the contract is likely to understand the implications. This tends to depend on whether they are likely to have legal assistance in a particular situation - a company or a professional person is always expected to, a consumer buying a mobile internet connection generally not. In which case there tends to be a lot less tolerance of misleading text.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 2:07 UTC (Fri) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 9:40 UTC (Fri) by moltonel (guest, #45207) [Link]
The carrier has sort of a valid point in that it can only afford to give "unlimited" data as long as you only use the bandwidth of a typical phone. Max out the connection and the price that the carrier has to pay for your data is much higher.
The problem "of course" is that blocking tethering, voip, or whatever else is really the wrong control point. They should just cap the data (whatever the provenance) or drastcally reduce the bandwidth when going over a certain amount, and be honest about it and stop pretending that such contratcts are "illimited". Sadly, the all-powerfull marketing department probably won't allow them to do that.
I actually really wish carriers/ISPs would start charging by the byte. Give me a 2€/month contract with 1G of free data, and let me pay one cent at a time for my usage. Just be realistic about the price, it should certainly remain under 1€/Gb for mobile. This would actually be much clearer than the current fake-unlimited situation, and much fairer between users. Make the per-Gb price dependant on speed. Hey, you could even charge more during peak hours.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 10:12 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]
And this is where the root cause of a problem sits.
Give me a 2€/month contract with 1G of free data, and let me pay one cent at a time for my usage. Just be realistic about the price, it should certainly remain under 1€/Gb for mobile.
Well, that's your POV. Unfortunately carriers have different opinions: for them the break-even price is near $5/Gb (about 3.5-4€/Gb). Now you see why marketing departments need to invent clever “unlimited-but-not-really plan”, “no tethering” and other such bullshit? Straightforward approach just does not work. There are significant gap between what people are willing to honestly pay and what carriers need to make the whole endeavor profitable.
LTE changes the situation in one respect (traffic over LTE can reach break-even point much earlier), but does not change situation principally WRT “unlimited” plans: it's as easy to suck “too much” bandwidth with LTE as it's with 3G, just the absolute number is higher.
“Unlimited” plans have to go, they are just not compatible with reality of mobile data, it's as simple as that. Sadly it's powerful marketing slogan thus I'm afraid “unlimited-but-not-really plans” are here to stay.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 13:07 UTC (Fri) by moltonel (guest, #45207) [Link]
My "under 1€/Gb" figure isn't wishfull thinking, it corresponds to what I'm currently paying (flat montly rate) plus some extra to account for the fact that I'm not using my full allowance. That's Ireland. France is cheaper. Asia proably cheaper still. Sorry USA.
What's important is not the actual figure (it varies by region, and goes down with time), it's the fact that it's a flat per-Gb rate. You don't start paying exhorbitant rates just because you've gone over your quota. I'll be paying 3x my normal bill this month because I went 10% over my quota. This ought to be illegal.
That's the advantage for me the individual. I'd also expect prices to go down on average because big users will not be sponsored by small ones.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 17:08 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]
My "under 1€/Gb" figure isn't wishfull thinking, it corresponds to what I'm currently paying (flat montly rate) plus some extra to account for the fact that I'm not using my full allowance.
Really? Why are you so sure that average payments are only 1€/Gb per month in your region?
I'll be paying 3x my normal bill this month because I went 10% over my quota.
Does it still fit “under 1€/Gb” cap? If not then you've just discovered one way companies use to bridge the gap between what they could profitably offer and what customers demand. There are other way to squeeze more money from customers.
What's important is not the actual figure (it varies by region, and goes down with time), it's the fact that it's a flat per-Gb rate.
As long as we have enough devices on our networks to saturate them this will not be possible. Hosting services often offer similar plans (cheap traffic up to certain point, then suddenly significantly more expensive one if you go beyond that) for the same reasons.
If you know how much data will be transferred by your customers in a given data period (month, day, hour) you can plan for the bandwidth requirements pretty precisely if there are thousands users (mobile data users are limited by base station bandwidth, not by fiber network bandwidth thus we only talk about thousand users at time even if there are millions subscribers). If don't have that information then you need to keep large amount of unused capacity available all the time to cover spikes.
That's the advantage for me the individual. I'd also expect prices to go down.
So you are proposing a “solution” which will need more hardware to implement and will raise the perceived price (because now both people who use less traffic than “prepaid amount” and people who are using more than “prepaid amount” pay more, often much more, than what they say in ads) yet somehow expect that prices will go down. Don't you see any problems with that idea?
Because big users will not be sponsored by small ones.
Once more: “big users” are not a problem at all. Google crawler may use hundreds of gigabytes per month but it uses them at constant rate and it's pretty easy to provision for that. “Bursty users” are problematic—and flat rates encourage them (if I know that I don't have enough monthly traffic to watch football matches from airport then I'll go and find WiFi access point, if I pay cheap plat rate then I'll just use my 3G or 4G connection).
In the future situation may change (land-based internet is in different situation entirely: there “bursty users” are not producing enough traffic to compete with P2P networks even if they want netflix all the time), but for now that's what we have.
P.S. If you see that there are millions of people who are doing X and not Y (no matter what these X and Y actually are) then idea that they are all doing that simply because they are greedy and stupid usually wrong one: if Y is really better then someone eventually will decide to try to do Y and it'll give them competitive advantage. The fact that carriers started with “flat rate” and switched to today's packages is pretty strong hint that there are something besides greed at play.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 26, 2014 14:36 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 26, 2014 15:04 UTC (Sat) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 26, 2014 23:11 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
So that makes sense of the wireless case. Still doesn't explain BT's pricing policy, but 'grasping, failing corp that is gripping hard to its one remaining quasi-monopoly now that all its hopes of gaining anything from international growth or mobile telephony have failed' plus a big dose of big-corp incompetence probably explains that well enough without a need to appeal to rationality.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 26, 2014 16:30 UTC (Sat) by moltonel (guest, #45207) [Link]
You're taking that value way too seriously. I don't care wether it's the national average, or what the actual value is. I just picked a value for the sake of the illustration. What interests me is the concept of a "reasonable price per Gb for mobile consumers". I only reasserted the value because you were questioning it and saying that it must be higher.
But since you ask: I know because that's what I currently pay from one of the major carriers, and because I very recently had a look at most of the carriers' offers in my country.
> Does it still fit “under 1€/Gb” cap?
You don't need to look hard to see that paying 200% more for using 10% more isn't a linear €/Gb price. That "reasonable if within quota, shocking if over quota" price is what I'm complaining about.
> If not then you've just discovered one way companies use to bridge the gap between what they could profitably offer and what customers demand.
Firstly I haven't discovered anything, I just go biten by something that many people (myself included) have long complained about. Google for "bill shock" for countless annecdotes.
Secondly, the argument that a different carrier behaviour wouldn't be financially viable is a strawman. The price of overage is so high that users do their best to avoid it. It's an exceptional occurence and can't contribute much to the carrier's bottom line. Or if you view it from the "economical incentive for users to not use too much data" angle, then a linear per-GB rate would be a much more efficient incentive.
> As long as we have enough devices on our networks to saturate them this will not be possible.
I fail to see the logic in that. Since we'll always be able to saturate the network (if only because the network eventually gets sized by demand), we need ways to push back against overusage. You may not like the price-per-gb model, but it's the most direct incentive you can think of. It's not just possible, it's obvious. All other schemes currently in use (expect the "actually-unlimited" one) are more complicated.
> If you know how much data will be transferred [...] you can plan for the bandwidth requirements
Yes and no. Sizing a carrier or ISP's network hardware is not like starting an AWS instance. Each base station costs an awful amount of money and time to setup. You can plan ahead (months, not days or hours) but you'll also need to reach a compromise between costly overprovisioning and costly annoyed customers.
> So you are proposing a “solution” which will need more hardware to implement
Absolutely not, no hardware change. Metering is already being done. All you need to change is the routine that looks at the data usage and creates the invoice.
And from a network usage point of view, you're likely to see decreased usage. Price your service accordingly so that you still get the same overall amount.
> and will raise the perceived price (because now both people who use less traffic than “prepaid amount” and people who are using more than “prepaid amount” pay more, often much more, than what they say in ads)
It's hard to gauge what would be perceived, but people who use way less than their prepaid amount would pay less (the cutoff point depends on the new per-gb price), and people who use even just a little bit over the prepaid amount would pay way less (because current overage prices are so high).
From a psychological point of view, most people by now have grown highly suspicious of tempting ads that forget to mention the fine-print limitations. It's an uncertainty that adds to the perceived price of an offer (another way of saying that people are willing to pay more to avoid surprises - which you cited as an advantage for prepaid/unlimited plans). Since a linear price naturally solves the carrier's "abusive users" problem, the carrier will be less likely to add silly limitations like "no tethering", and that'll lower the perceived price.
> yet somehow expect that prices will go down. Don't you see any problems with that idea?
While I described a few problems with your reasoning, I've not explained why I think a linear price would lower prices. The reason prices would go down (appart from techonolgical/infrastructure progress) is that simpler prices are easyer to compare. Easy comparision drives competition up and prices down.
> Once more: “big users” are not a problem at all
Really ? How come "unlimited" isn't the only plan available worldwide then ? Heavy users cost more than light users.
> Bursty users are problematic, and flat rates encourage them
As you say, the usage pattern (bursty/unpredictible vs regular) matters more than the actual amount, but I wasn't talking about the usage pattern, and none of the discussed pricing schemes (unlimited, pseudo-unlimited, prepaid, linear...) influence the usage pattern much :
> if I know that I don't have enough monthly traffic to watch football matches from airport then I'll go and find WiFi access point, if I pay cheap plat rate then I'll just use my 3G or 4G connection
What you're describing here is not a problem of burstyness, but a problem of total usage. You'd get the same behaviour (deciding to use wifi instead of 3G) if you had been using data at a steady rate during the month.
Burst usage means that you are using a lot of data in a short time. But a single bursty user isn't likely to matter to a carrier : what's important is the aggregate usage, with the network suffering only during "prime-time".
For this particular problem, the per-gb pricing scheme can help smoothe the usage graph by setting a higher price during prime-time (like we have for electricity). You could actually do the same with prepaid plans (substituting Gbs by arbitrary units), but it's a bit more abstract and therefore complicated/unapealing to the customer.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 26, 2014 23:54 UTC (Sat) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
[1]Which it should be anyways.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 27, 2014 1:08 UTC (Sun) by mangoo (guest, #32602) [Link]
I just bought a €10 prepaid card with 10 GB of data to use, and that includes €5 I can use for phone calls / SMS.
This gives me €0.5/GB price. Provider: MEO.
Tethering allowed.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 26, 2014 14:35 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Thus, everyone using BT for ADSL provision has to cap or charge *somehow*, or get bitten with insane fees.
Openreach WBC
Posted Apr 29, 2014 16:34 UTC (Tue) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
The thing about this price strategy that will perhaps not strike you as coincidental if you know who BT Openreach's biggest customer is (hint: It's BT retail, part of the same group) is that it punishes ISPs for being small.
Random variation caused by the behaviour of a small number of individuals gets drowned out when you're a big ISP, so in fact BT retail can and do offer "unlimited" service (e.g. on "Infinity 2" their most expensive and best performing normal home offering) even though by law they're paying the same fees you've described. A handful of customers may use the service very heavily sometimes, but compared to millions of households on BT's services this handful doesn't matter.
Still, I'm not sure your description is quite right, or rather, I don't think it tells the whole story. The ISPs are not so far as I can tell obliged to take more bits than they want. Smaller ISPs often have only a gigabit feed from BT. No matter how much BT tries, no more than a gigabit will fit through that pipe and they only get to charge for a gigabit. If 500 users on 80Mbit FTTC who buy service from TinyISP are trying to download the entire Breaking Bad simultaneously, too bad, they're rate limited by congestion at TinyISP's 1Gbit fibre in some DC in an industrial estate. Of course those customers may not be happy, regardless of whether they were promised "unlimited" or not, but Openreach doesn't get to charge for 40Gbit transit that didn't and couldn't take place over that fibre.
Eventually this all shakes out. But it shakes out for the biggest players first. I'd guess that the average (mean) household with Infinity 2 only ends up using a hundred gigabytes per month if that. BT retail makes a profit on this product even though in theory every user could run it full tilt 24/7, chewing say 20TB per month and bankrupt them.
Openreach WBC
Posted Apr 29, 2014 23:26 UTC (Tue) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
But "Unlimited" meaning "no more than X data/month before penalties kick in" is something very odd (even if those penalties are "we slow you down" rather than "we cut you off or charge you 100x as much")
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 11:11 UTC (Fri) by fb (subscriber, #53265) [Link]
In The Netherlands I remember a contract with T-Mobile that stated unlimited data but where the speed would get heavily capped after hitting a certain monthly limit.
I think the problem with mobile carriers is simply bad regulation. Just like (certain countries) force anyone selling packaged food to state in a clear and standard way the nutritional content of the package, mobile carriers should be forced to inform some basics about their packages X minutes of voice call per month, Y mobile internet bytes per month at this speed etc with/without tethering etc.
Why fixed rates are common
Posted Apr 25, 2014 11:37 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
You can dismiss it as irrational if you like, but there are coherent arguments for why customers would prefer to pay a fixed rate than a "lower" variable rate. Because humans aren't machines and don't precisely track everything they do, they end up worrying about how much they've spent on variable rate services. And worrying really, really sucks.
So they actually feel _happier_ knowing it's $15 per month for "unlimited" X than paying an average of $13.86 for "X units" but never knowing from one month to the next exactly what the cost will be. Call the $1.14 extra revenue (not to mention the averted cost of accurately measuring and billing) a payment for the resulting psychological well being.
Why fixed rates are common
Posted Apr 25, 2014 13:39 UTC (Fri) by moltonel (guest, #45207) [Link]
Of course; marketing decisions like this are well researched. But I'd be very surprised if that research accounted for the fact that "unlimited" plans often aren't.
Egoistically, I'd take an actually-unlimited plan in favor of a flat per-Gb rate. But actually-unlimited plans are still a rarity in the mobile space, so I'm wishing for the next-best thing that seem obtainable (it's what we had in the pre-adsl days).
> Because humans aren't machines and don't precisely track everything they do, they end up worrying about how much they've spent on variable rate services. And worrying really, really sucks.
I agree with you ! I'm stressing an awfull lot more with my existing 15Gb/month plan than I would be with a flat per-Gb plan. And I can't afford an "unlimited" plan.
For people who would go from "unlimited" to flat per-Gb, an easy way to dispel the worry is to make the daily consumption (which machines, not humans, already track per-customer anyway, even for unlimited plan customers) easily viewable (I have that with my provider, it's just mor convoluted to look at than I'd like) and to place alerts and barriers when consumption is unusually high (that's already the case of all plans I know).
TL;DR: the market is telling customers that the current situation is what they want, but it's only true because it hasn't made the effort of offering something that is actually better. Why would it ? The current situation gives it more leeway. There may be an evolutionarily stable strategy phenomenon that makes the gap hard to cross, but there's no reason we can't get there eventually.
Why fixed rates are common
Posted Apr 29, 2014 4:15 UTC (Tue) by ras (subscriber, #33059) [Link]
So, after trying various things the solution the market found when forced not to lie was ... you have a fixed price cap and a fixed bandwidth allowance per month, but if you go over it we don't cut you off. We just slow you down. The more you go over the slower we go. And everybody is happy.
Governments can force markets to be open and fair for everyone involved. They just need a spine and a desire to represent the people that elected them, not the people who fund their electoral campaigns.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 27, 2014 20:31 UTC (Sun) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]
They should just cap the data (whatever the provenance) or drastcally reduce the bandwidth when going over a certain amount, and be honest about it and stop pretending that such contratcts are "illimited".
This is how T-Mobile structures their contracts in the US today. All their data contracts offer unlimited usage* at EDGE speed with different contracts offering different amounts of LTE data. IIRC, if you hit the data limits and really want more high speed data, you can move up to the next level in the middle of a billing period. It provides a reasonable balance between predictable pricing, not being completely cut off when you hit a cap, and the ability to get more high speed data if you really need it.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted May 1, 2014 1:38 UTC (Thu) by robert.cohen@anu.edu.au (subscriber, #6281) [Link]
You would however, then have a right to feel outraged.
If you don't like a contract, don't sign it.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted May 1, 2014 19:57 UTC (Thu) by cry_regarder (subscriber, #50545) [Link]
Replace "don't like a contract" with "can't or won't comply with and can't afford or insure against the consequences of being in breach of said contract, don't sign it."
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted May 3, 2014 10:58 UTC (Sat) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]
> You do however have a legal obligation. And if you don't follow them, the other party has a perfect right to sue you for breach of contract.
There is no way to prove that, so *this* is what is *actually* irrelevant.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted May 3, 2014 21:15 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]
There is no way to prove that, so *this* is what is *actually* irrelevant.
You probably mean there is no 100% reliable way to prove that. There are plenty of heuristics which may help carriers to catch customer which use tethering—and that's enough. Carrier can just go ahead and add the tethering plan on the behalf of the customer. At this point you can, of course, still go to court and try to sue them, but this becomes not just minor issue of minor violation of contract, but rather issue of lying under the oath. Even if there are relatively large chance that carrier will not be able to prove that you actually used tethering there are also quite large chance that they will present enough evidence to send you to jail for a few years (lying under the oath is criminal offence which can lead to up to seven years in jail). Oh, and if you've removed Android's feature which we are discussing here? Then it's fraud on top of lying under oath.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 11:25 UTC (Fri) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]
I'm not sure that's really true - if I'm using a proper computer it's mostly because I'm doing something text heavy and want a keyboard, and text isn't very big. If I want to watch Netflix, I'm going to leave my desk and my keyboard and go somewhere more comfortable with a tablet.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 16:24 UTC (Fri) by proski (guest, #104) [Link]
When I write to a friend, I use my phone. When I write to a lawyer, I use a laptop with tethering. The risk of sending something prematurely is too high for serious matters. The bandwidth is completely orthogonal to the issue.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 26, 2014 8:47 UTC (Sat) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link]
While that is phrased to appear a tautology, in fact whether or not these contracts do legally say that appears to be something neither you nor I is qualified to determine. Only a judge could do so and their decisions tend to be rather expensive. It seems to me that were there such a case defence lawyers would argue that the contract is self-contradictory and therefore must be construed in the favor of the party that did not write it and thus that the anti-tethering provisions are just as meaningless in law as they are in normal language. And if that argument failed there are probably at least a dozen more that could be made that still might work as well.
Leaving both the meaning and the consensuality of these 'contracts' aside, at the software engineering level this should seen for a pretty shocking ethical lapse as well. Even if your fanciful interpretation of the contracts were to hold, and all other arguments failed, that does not excuse treacherous software.
Programming is not the only field where ethics is needed and yet avoided. But the more important the devices that run software are to peoples lives, the more important it becomes to change that, no?
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 1:19 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]
One of the reasons I'm happy to live in India. Careers here (including Vodafone) explicitly allow tethering at the standard data rate. Some even give detailed instructions on how to set up various devices to tether.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 8:30 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]
Do you have “unlimited” data plans? Where I live most “standard” plans support tethering—but give you quite limited amount of traffic. “Unlimited” plans also exist but they are either extremely expensive or forbid P2P, “tethering” and other traffic-heavy applications.
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 8:44 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 25, 2014 19:00 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
Summary : NAT masquerading for tethered traffic not configured
Posted Apr 25, 2014 6:42 UTC (Fri) by roblucid (subscriber, #48964) [Link]
Really (some) carriers appear to want to charge more to have the phone act as a router for other devices (with likely higher traffic), so they like a way to turn on/off tethered 192.168 unroutable packets as customers choose plans. The rooted phone users are simply enabling NAT masquerading for their phones local addresses given to tethered devices.
It rather amuses me to see use of unroutable 192.168 addresses without working NAT rules described as a feature to flag tethering "Android 4.1.2 introduced that ability (and requirement) for Android devices to properly flag when data is for tethering purposes" bug.
Not so long ago, before cheap routers were providing home Wifi, it was common for ISPs to restrict Internet to 1 device in T&C for home networks, if you chose to breach that you had to know how to configure NAT. Noone was crying "privacy breach" over that, at the time.
Summary : NAT masquerading for tethered traffic not configured
Posted Apr 25, 2014 14:04 UTC (Fri) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]
Summary : NAT masquerading for tethered traffic not configured
Posted Apr 25, 2014 18:56 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
Why complain only about Android?
Posted Apr 25, 2014 18:18 UTC (Fri) by david.a.wheeler (subscriber, #72896) [Link]
Apple's iOS has similar limitations. Apple says that to tether, "your wireless carrier must offer Personal Hotspot and your devices must meet certain system requirements." http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3574
More recently, Apple is preventing the use of hotspots if your carrier doesn't like them: http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/03/19/apple-cracks-do...
Why complain only about Android?
Posted Apr 25, 2014 19:17 UTC (Fri) by proski (guest, #104) [Link]
Because it's against the spirit of free software to introduce features that are disadvantageous to the user. Nobody expects Apple to adhere to such standards. Android, on the other hand, is Linux based.
Why complain only about Android?
Posted Apr 25, 2014 19:59 UTC (Fri) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted Apr 26, 2014 4:53 UTC (Sat) by hicder (guest, #96180) [Link]
Pocock: Android betrays tethering data
Posted May 5, 2014 7:59 UTC (Mon) by midgaze (guest, #96957) [Link]
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