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GNOME 3.10 ReleasedGNOME 3.10 ReleasedPosted Sep 26, 2013 19:36 UTC (Thu) by hummassa (subscriber, #307)In reply to: GNOME 3.10 Released by Cyberax Parent article: GNOME 3.10 Released
Because it's simple, and fast. Select, middle-click. Copy-paste is, for some workloads, a frequent operation, so, Huffman encoding: smallest possible sequence for a frequent output.
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GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 26, 2013 19:50 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
No, it's not. And it always confuses users.
For example, you select a text and try to middle-paste it into the address bar of Firefox. Except that when you click on the address bar it replaces your selection. Nice.
And then there's the constant problem of keeping track whether you've copied the selected text or not.
An absolutely total mis-feature that should have been strangled in the crib.
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 26, 2013 20:17 UTC (Thu) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]
> No, it's not. And it always confuses users.
It doesn't seem to confuse me.
On the other hand, I find a touchpad with gestures and tapping enabled to be dibilitating. Windows open faster than I can close them. The first thing I do on a new install is run synclient and disabled as much of it as I can. But middle copy and paste, I'm fine with that.
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 26, 2013 20:18 UTC (Thu) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]
> For example, you select a text and try to middle-paste it into the address bar of Firefox. Except that when you click on the address bar it replaces your selection. Nice.
?!
If you Middle-click, it just appends (or inserts, depending on where you middle-click) the selection in the point where you middle-clicked.
It's not select - click - middleclick; it's just select - middleclick.
> And then there's the constant problem of keeping track whether you've copied the selected text or not.
I don't get it. If you selected, then you "copied". If you middleclicked, then you "pasted"...
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 27, 2013 20:35 UTC (Fri) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]
> If you Middle-click, it just appends (or inserts, depending on where you middle-click) the selection in the point where you middle-clicked.
Which is useless. I want to replace the address with the contents of the PRIMARY selection. Inserting a new URL in the middle of an old one is *never* what I want to d.
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 27, 2013 22:37 UTC (Fri) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
speak for yourself, I frequently need to paste in URLs in multiple steps when people send me links that are extremely long and so get broken across lines.
admittedly, this is mostly a case of appending to the URL rather than inserting in the middle, but I've had reasons to do that as well.
a paste should either insert the text whereever the cursor currently is (my preference) or insert it where the pointer is (fallback), it should never blindly replace everything with a new thing if you didn't tell it ot
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 28, 2013 17:33 UTC (Sat) by james (subscriber, #1325) [Link] Have you tried pasting the entire broken URL into the address bar, line-breaks and all? Most GUI browsers will (attempt to) DTRT and remove the line-breaks for you.
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 29, 2013 0:19 UTC (Sun) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
Yes, sometimes it works, sometimes not.
all too frequently, the URL now has spaces (or quote characters) added at the beginning of each line that will prevent the broawser from DTRT
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Oct 2, 2013 7:58 UTC (Wed) by jospoortvliet (subscriber, #33164) [Link]
KDE apps feature this x icon at the end of every text input which does exactly that - a middle click on it will empty the field and replace its contents with what was in the buffer while a click somewhere in the field will insert. Firefox (and every other app/platform lacking this) is to blame for not having this totally simple and obvious feature... reminds me of how session management was badly implemented and then blamed for not working, thus removed. Ignorance is bliss...
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 26, 2013 20:43 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] For example, you select a text and try to middle-paste it into the address bar of Firefox. Except that when you click on the address bar it replaces your selection. Works fine here (just checked again, but then I'm using this ability daily thus it's hard for me to imagine that it'll not work). What am I doing “wrong”? And then there's the constant problem of keeping track whether you've copied the selected text or not. Well, it'll be a problem with any copy-paste technique since clipboard is not actually displayed anywhere. There are few features which are done wrong in Linux UI, but middle click is one of the things which are so brilliant that I don't want to ever lose (in fact that's one of the reasons to pick ThinkPads over other laptops: these beasts actually have a middle button and it's placed in the right place — that is, above touchpad).
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 27, 2013 10:18 UTC (Fri) by alankila (subscriber, #47141) [Link]
It's just that when the address bar already has text, your click may be mistaken as a selection if the pointing device simultaneously moves slightly. It's easy to lose the selections. The ease of accidentally overriding the selection seems like a fundamental limitation of the select+middleclick technique.
What really kills me that on Linux, ctrl-C has dual purpose, the other usage is to send INT to process, and the other is to perform a copy operation. What it means in particular is that terminals tend to copy by ctrl+shift+c, while all other applications copy by ctrl+c (and don't respond to ctrl+shift+c). This prevents efficient memorization and penalizes mistakes: using the wrong keystroke in the application leads to incorrect action being taken. On OS X, they have a separate "cmd" key which is used to do copy and paste, and which leaves ctrl free to do its traditional function.
I guess the only solution to fixing *nix copy/paste is to stop using terminal emulators, forever.
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 27, 2013 10:27 UTC (Fri) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]
> I guess the only solution to fixing *nix copy/paste is to stop using terminal emulators, forever.
Or using the Mac global shortcut mappings...
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 27, 2013 12:14 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] Blame the PC keyboard. The Sun 3 keyboard had »copy« and »paste« keys.
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 27, 2013 13:11 UTC (Fri) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]
> It's just that when the address bar already has text, your click may be mistaken as a selection if the pointing device simultaneously moves slightly. It's easy to lose the selections. The ease of accidentally overriding the selection seems like a fundamental limitation of the select+middleclick technique.
This is why Linux native browsers, like Konqueror, include a "Clear address bar" button. You can get extensions for Firefox for this sort of thing, too. I find it useful enough to use this feature even when not middle clicking.
In FF it's not really required anyway: Middle click in any part of the page will attempt to navigate to the text you last selected, if it looks like a URL. Address bar is not needed.
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 27, 2013 14:11 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] It's just that when the address bar already has text, your click may be mistaken as a selection if the pointing device simultaneously moves slightly. “Slightly”? You must move it all the way out of address bar! If you try move you pointer with middle button clicked it'll be just ignored (mouse cursor is frozen when that happens). Just middle-click again — and you are golden! The ease of accidentally overriding the selection seems like a fundamental limitation of the select+middleclick technique. All such problems in my experience come from keyboards/mices which don't have a middle button and where you can accidentally generate left click or right click instead of middle click. What really kills me that on Linux, ctrl-C has dual purpose, the other usage is to send INT to process, and the other is to perform a copy operation. Yup. And that is why I use trackpoint in combination with middle click. Works fine in most cases (except crazy Java programs, but they are not Linux programs, they tend to try to invent their own way of doing everything anyway).
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 27, 2013 15:57 UTC (Fri) by apoelstra (subscriber, #75205) [Link]
<blockquote>“Slightly”? You must move it all the way out of address bar! If you try move you pointer with middle button clicked it'll be just ignored (mouse cursor is frozen when that happens). Just middle-click again — and you are golden!</blockquote>
The problem is not accidentally selecting while middle-clicking, but accidentally selecting while clicking normally. For example, you might click the address bar, hold down backspace to clear it (itself very irritating, as the more natural "triple-click and hit delete" idiom will also blow out your copy/paste buffer), then middle-click in the blank address bar.
I think, this is why Firefox treats middle-clicking in the middle of the page as a "go to URL" signal. IMHO this convenience is not really worth the suprise of Firefox jumping pages every time you miss a text box. (Pentadactyl and vimperator users can just hit 'p' or 'P' to the same effect, which is harder to do by accident.)
A more common problem, for me anyway, is that I have a habit of (a) selecting text while reading long pages as a way of bookmarking my position while scrolling or checking other windows, and (b) selecting text to delete/overwrite it. It is frustrating that both these activities lose data from the paste buffer, especially when trying to overwrite text from the clipboard.
I love middle-click-to-copy, but it could certainly be improved. Maybe if you had to use the right mouse button while dragging to copy text, that would avoid these conflicts and also prevent users who are unaware of it from accidentally using it.
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Oct 2, 2013 12:40 UTC (Wed) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link]
"The problem is not accidentally selecting while middle-clicking, but accidentally selecting while clicking normally. For example, you might click the address bar, hold down backspace to clear it (itself very irritating, as the more natural "triple-click and hit delete" idiom will also blow out your copy/paste buffer), then middle-click in the blank address bar."
You are attempting to use this like a two-step copy paste and it just isnt. So forget about your copy/paste buffer, that isnt even involved in the yank. You have to clear the space before you start, since there is one step, not two, it is not possible to insert a step between the steps, when there is only one step.
"A more common problem, for me anyway, is that I have a habit of (a) selecting text while reading long pages as a way of bookmarking my position while scrolling or checking other windows, and (b) selecting text to delete/overwrite it. It is frustrating that both these activities lose data from the paste buffer, especially when trying to overwrite text from the clipboard."
But they dont. The paste buffer is unaffected. You access it with shift-insert or ctrl-v or meta-v or whatever you have that mapped to - the middle shift yank uses the primary selection, NOT the paste buffer!
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Oct 1, 2013 20:08 UTC (Tue) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link]
You can only use ctrl-c to copy on a *nix system if you have installed some sort of windows keybindings. I cant completely call for the destruction of such keybindings (I get forced to spend way too much time in windows and therefore use them myself) but please dont mistakenly think they are somehow native keybindings.
Also you wont over-ride the selection unless you click the wrong button. Move the mouse, then middle click, without left clicking, and you should have no difficulty. Unless your mouse, like most, doesnt have a real middle button and instead you are trying to press on the scrollwheel. Which often winds up with the wheel spinning and your finger colliding with the wrong button.
THAT is what often happens with me, and aside from being more careful the only solution is to hunt really hard until you find a decent mouse.
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Oct 2, 2013 3:10 UTC (Wed) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
I tend to buy cheap ($5 or so) mice and haven't had any problems like you are describing. your mileage will vary, so I'm not disputing that you are having problems, but I'm surprised it's a lot of hunting
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Oct 2, 2013 13:43 UTC (Wed) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link]
Well at the moment I have two working mice (I tend to be hard on them) - one is an el cheapo not sure where I got it, the other is a moderately expensive Pixxo gaming mouse I ordered and had shipped - neither one has a satisfactory middle button, but either one will work if I am slow and careful with it. Just not conducive to fast workflow, which is where the middle click should shine.
GNOME 3.10 Released Posted Sep 27, 2013 20:33 UTC (Fri) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]
Don't forget the programs who confuse the two operations so that sometimes selecting text overwrites the CLIPBOARD as well as the PRIMARY selection. XChat, I'm looking at you. And I think Mozilla historically did this as well. No wonder the users are confused--even developers can't always get it right!
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