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Intel and XMir

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 7:36 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950)
In reply to: Intel and XMir by maxiaojun
Parent article: Intel and XMir

You really have a thing for Red Hat in a way you cannot see things objectively anymore.

I am talking about Canonical and Canonical projects. Upstart did not start out at Canonical, they just hired the main developer. Canonical focusses within just one project solely on Ubuntu. Red Hat and SuSE do not.

Regarding IBus, I don't know. Maybe out of all the projects their sponsor one is focussed solely on Fedora. That's not the case though.

You only make clear you have an issue with Red Hat. I don't care.


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Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 8:59 UTC (Thu) by cjwatson (subscriber, #7322) [Link]

> Upstart did not start out at Canonical, they just hired the main developer.

This is a curious piece of historical revisionism, and since I was there I can't let it pass.

Scott was arguably Canonical's first full-time employee (things were a little fuzzy in the very early days and he and Robert Collins had a long-running debate over who was first), hired in early 2004. To start with Scott wasn't doing anything related to init systems, and indeed wasn't initially on the "distro team" that was focusing solely on Ubuntu, but was mainly working on problems related to revision control.

In late 2004 / early 2005, Scott started working on the boot process (recall that that was the time when everyone was moving over to the various components of Project Utopia, including udev), and over a year or so of working on that he came to the conclusion that a number of problems were fundamentally unfixable without replacing the init system. At a Canonical distro team sprint in early 2006 he presented a design for a new event-based init daemon to us, and I remember going over it in considerable detail and giving him feedback on the proposed state machine (I think that was roughly when he settled on the name "Upstart" too). At UDS in June 2006 he presented this as a spec for the Ubuntu 6.10 cycle (and you can see that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReplacementInit?action=info lines up with this), it was one of his four specced projects for that release cycle, and we switched Ubuntu over to the new Upstart init daemon in September 2006.

Now, it's certainly fair to say that Upstart was Scott's brainchild rather than something that Canonical management asked him to do or whatever, and he did a lot of the work for it in his free time because it was something he cared about. He also did a lot of it on work time, he had many discussions with me and other Canonical employees about its design and implementation, and he felt strongly about making Ubuntu's boot process reliable as well as running it as an upstream project that other distributions could use.

Upstart would not have happened without Scott, just as many projects (corporate-backed or not) wouldn't have happened without their initial primary developers. But it is quite false to say that Canonical "just hired the main developer", as if we noticed this promising Upstart project and decided we should hire the person who'd been developing it. That's not how it happened.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 9:45 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

Oops, I was not trying to say anything factually wrong. I really thought I was correct, so thanks for educating me!

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 13, 2013 0:57 UTC (Fri) by jdub (subscriber, #27) [Link]

I can clear up the employee number debate.

1) David Miller (bugzilla, not kernel)
2) Robert Collins
3) Jeff Waugh
4) Scott James Remnant

(It's Scott and I that argued over 3 and 4.)

:-)

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 13, 2013 2:56 UTC (Fri) by cjwatson (subscriber, #7322) [Link]

Aha, thanks. I had a sneaky feeling I was remembering that slightly wrongly :-), probably because of debates between Scott and Robert after you left ...

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 14, 2013 19:54 UTC (Sat) by jbailey (subscriber, #16890) [Link]

David didn't stay very long, so easy to forget. I only remember because one of my starting tasks was "we need XMLRPC in Bugzilla" and I had to ask him for help finding the installation. No one seemed to know quite where or how it was all setup.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 17:18 UTC (Thu) by kiko (subscriber, #69905) [Link]

> Canonical focusses within just one project solely on Ubuntu

C'mon Olav.. you of all people know that there is no such thing as a company contributing code to an open source project; open source is contributed to by people, and Canonical's engineers certainly do -- regularly -- contribute code to open source projects in general. It's a small company, though, with 600 employees and about 2/3 that of engineers. If you compare that population to the size of the RHEL engineering contingent, it's no wonder their contributions upstream have less impact.

If you were saying that a) Canonical prioritizes Ubuntu as its own product and b) focuses on integration and polish as opposed to upstream features, there is absolutely no contest there. You're right -- last-mile polish is the area where the biggest gap existed in open source when it was founded, and I think Ubuntu' s success and adoption confirm it was an effective goal to pursue. I truly wish the company had more resource to invest in upstream features -- I myself miss many -- but when you are a small and yet-to-be-profitable company, focus can be a good way to avoid failure.

I know Canonical has its share of policy problems. But as a key influencer, your criticism could help us fix them, as opposed to blending them all into a big Canonical Does Nothing For Open Source meme.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:23 UTC (Thu) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

Your arguments about focusing and polish would carry much more weight, if Canonical actually focused and polished. But it much rather seems to invest huge amounts of resources into rewriting the whole desktop stack single handedly. From init system to display server to desktop, everything home grown. Seems like a huge task for a small company. I can very well understand that Canonical's engineers don't have time to contribute much to upstream projects. But is this actually helping the Linux desktop? I fear it's actually harming it.

As an application developer, I see for example systemd as a unifying force long overdue. I've never had the time to write init scripts for distributions other than the one I use, but I can be quite sure that my systemd unit files work just about everywhere (or at least will work). Well except for Ubuntu. And sadly they do not even have any good reasons. The same story now seems to be happeing with Mir.

Intel and XMir

Posted Oct 1, 2013 12:21 UTC (Tue) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

AFAIK there is no guarantee that your unit files will work (as intended) on every systemd-based distro?

Intel and XMir

Posted Oct 1, 2013 12:31 UTC (Tue) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

Is there a guarantee? Probably not. But I never said I was guaranteed. I said I can be quite sure. For example the following few lines will probably work on every systemd distribution:

[Unit]
Description=X Window Virtual Framebuffer
After=network.target

[Service]
Type=simple
ExecStart=/usr/bin/Xvfb -screen 0 800x600x24
Restart=always

[Install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target

There might be some obscure system where this might not work. Maybe. Small chance.

Now write a SysV init script that does the same and works on at least the major distributions. After network's up, Xvfb should be started with the given parameters and if it crashes it should be restarted. It should by default be enabled in a multi-user runlevel. And to make things interesting: do it without having these distributions to test. Bonus points for not even having to try to find distribution specific documentation.

Systemd makes this so, so, so much easier. Finally.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 20:05 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]

> Regarding IBus, I don't know. Maybe out of all the projects their sponsor one is focussed solely on Fedora. That's not the case though.

Go and learn about it, otherwise don't claim anything about Red Hat.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 20:22 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

Go learn to have a discussion before posting anything on LWN.

Anyway, I do whatever I please and please just shut the fuck up.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 20:27 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]

Shut the fuck up yourself, troll.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 20:30 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]

Lost for words I see :P

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 20:36 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]

Obvious troll obvious.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 22:43 UTC (Thu) by ean5533 (subscriber, #69480) [Link]

This conversation is devolving. Please take a deep breath and step back for a while. Aggressive insulting and arguing is not good for anyone.

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