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FSF raising funds for the Replicant project
The Free Software Foundation has announced
a fundraising effort for the Replicant project. "While most of
Android is already free software, device manufacturers distribute the OS
with some key nonfree parts. Those parts are in the layer of Android that
communicates with the phone or tablet hardware, such as the WiFi and
Bluetooth chips. In addition, every commonly available Android device comes
pre-loaded with a variety of proprietary applications running on top of the
operating system. Replicant seeks to provide all of the same functionality
using only free software."
(Log in to post comments)
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 7:29 UTC (Fri) by hadess (subscriber, #24252) [Link] The device status Wiki page is at great pains to mention that the Wi-Fi drivers require non-free firmwares, but the telephony stack just says "working". Where's the Free Software firmware that runs on the baseband processor? My other concern is that there seems to be no mention of the upstreaming efforts. What drivers did get upstreamed to the Linux kernel?
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 10:16 UTC (Fri) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640) [Link]
> My other concern is that there seems to be no mention of the upstreaming efforts. What drivers did get upstreamed to the Linux kernel?
An android phones kernel is usually already open source due to the virtue of GPL. The binary code is in various libraries and in the android HAL. A lot of what replicant does is rewriting those closed userspace bits, such as writing an open RIL for samsung phone modems.
Mainlining the existing open source code something that could be done in parallel.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 10:42 UTC (Fri) by PaulK (guest, #92096) [Link]
> but the telephony stack just says "working". Where's the Free Software firmware that runs on the baseband processor?
We do mention that issue in the device's pages. There is always a list of "Known freedom issues" and the modem firmware being non-free is one of them. It is simply marked as working because the system (userspace) code is free software and the modem firmwares is preinstalled in the phone. Apart from the ones supported by OsmocomBB, there are no phones that can run a free baseband.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 11:08 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
FSF is more and more annoying these days. They have every right to execute their philology. But I guess they better build their own stuff rather than parasite on other people's stuff.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 11:23 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]
The FSF is doing the right thing here: supporting and encouraging support amongst others for people doing the actual work in Free Software, in this case providing a sustainable software environment for smartphones so that purchasers aren't obliged to replace fully functioning equipment because the vendor has lost interest and has new products to sell (amongst other reasons why one might choose to run Replicant).
If the FSF is so "annoying" just switch channels, rest your eyes on something that doesn't bother you, and maybe go and buy an Ubuntu Edge or something.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 14:26 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
> providing a sustainable software environment for smartphones so that purchasers aren't obliged to replace fully functioning equipment because the vendor has lost interest and has new products to sell
I guess a more pragmatic project, e.g., CyanogenMod, can do a better job here.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 16:04 UTC (Fri) by mikebenden (guest, #74702) [Link]
> I guess a more pragmatic project, e.g., CyanogenMod, can do a better job here.
One man's pragmatism is another man's getting sold down the river...
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 12:26 UTC (Fri) by swetland (subscriber, #63414) [Link]
The FSF does plenty of stuff that seems kinda silly to me at times (their GNU/Linux name crusade for example), but trying to fill in the gaps replacing proprietary-binary-only components on Android devices with open source replacements seems like a wonderful thing for people to work on.
As is pointed out upthread, at least for all the Nexus devices (and the vast majority of other devices, afaik), the kernel source is open and available (GPL), and the bulk of userspace is open and available (mostly Apache2), there are just a handful of proprietary glue libraries like the RIL (typically just an IPC bridge between Android's modem interface and whatever transport / protocol the cellular modem uses), etc.
Probably the biggest challenge (ignoring the cellular modem firmware which is an enormous can of worms) beyond stuff like the wifi firmware is the userspace openGL libraries.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 14:21 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
What can you get from such replacement?
Before the replacement becomes perfect, you just replacement your phone.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 14:27 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Before the replacement becomes perfect, you just handicap your phone.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 14:40 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] The ability to more comfortably display the digitus impudens to device manufacturers who want us to replace our devices at the rate indicated by their marketing department rather than the rate indicated by the natural lifespan of the hardware.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 14:50 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
digitus impudens means impudent finger, if I understand correctly.
Well, anything beyond the fact that you bought the device masters?
If you want to extend the lifespan of your device, I guess there is plenty of third-party Android firmware out there. You don't have to stick with free software dogma and leave your phone handicapped (as of today's status of Replicant) .
At the mercy of manufacturers Posted Jul 27, 2013 10:50 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] Until the day that some manufacturer sues the CyanogenMod project for distributing its firmware and causes unneeded grief for all parties. A free replacement may come handy then.Having a truly free distribution is as useful for mobile phones as for desktop computers. If you have not understood the latter proposition yet, then there is little that I can do to explain the former.
At the mercy of manufacturers Posted Jul 28, 2013 3:42 UTC (Sun) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Nice FUD about CyanogenMod. Maybe you can forward this message to Linus: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+LinusTorvalds/posts/8KBkzumMEc1
At the mercy of manufacturers Posted Jul 28, 2013 7:42 UTC (Sun) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] FUD? I cannot even begin to understand what your post is about.
You've all been trolled Posted Jul 29, 2013 8:05 UTC (Mon) by DonDiego (subscriber, #24141) [Link]
Trolling of course. It's been a long time since i saw such a successful troll on lwn. Now if people could go back to ignoring instead of feeding the troll...
You've all been trolled Posted Jul 29, 2013 13:26 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
What a jerk.
You've all been trolled Posted Jul 29, 2013 13:50 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] OK, that's enough of that, please? maxiaojun, you are working your way up the list of accounts that readers are filtering comments from, it might be worth considering why that might be. And, regardless, comments like this one bring value to nobody, please stop.
You've all been trolled Posted Jul 29, 2013 14:51 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Dear editor.
Can you elaborate the value of DonDiego's post?
And I don't care the fact some people want to be deaf about view points they don't like; I filter out nobody myself.
You've all been trolled Posted Jul 29, 2013 14:59 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] No, I do not need to "elaborate the value" of anybody's posts. But I can certainly say that there is only negative value to nursery-school name-calling posts, so I ask you to not do that again.With regard to filtering: that feature is not heavily used; LWN readers appear to appreciate well-expressed points of view. As far as I can tell, it's not "view points they don't like" that cause people to filter; it has a lot more to do with the nature of the discussion.
You've all been trolled Posted Jul 29, 2013 15:08 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Are you trying to infer that DonDiego's post is not "nursery-school name-calling"?
Yes, it's the nature of discussion, there is often some guy like DonDiego throwing some shit on me.
You've all been trolled Posted Jul 29, 2013 15:19 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] I said no such thing. I was talking to you. Concern yourself with your own behavior, please.
You've all been trolled Posted Jul 29, 2013 15:22 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Show me a better response for insulting post like DonDiego's post.
You've all been trolled Posted Jul 29, 2013 23:53 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
You are not making our esteemed editor happy. Please don't make Jon unhappy. He does too much good for the rest of us.
You've all been trolled Posted Aug 1, 2013 6:47 UTC (Thu) by rusty (✭ supporter ✭, #26) [Link]
He is.
Well played, Jon. Well played!
You've all been trolled Posted Aug 1, 2013 12:33 UTC (Thu) by madhatter (subscriber, #4665) [Link]
Esteemed editor: thanks for reminding me about the filtering ability, which I'd forgotten. I have now enabled it, and added a single user to the filtering list to see how well it works. My initial impression is pretty favourable!
At the mercy of manufacturers Posted Jul 28, 2013 11:52 UTC (Sun) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
BTW, how can Replicant be more safe if they are going to do reverse-engineering (I presume) rather than merely remix?
At the mercy of manufacturers Posted Jul 28, 2013 18:31 UTC (Sun) by filteredperception (subscriber, #5692) [Link]
My first guess would be because when you legally reverse engineer something and write original code to support hardware, there is no copyright holder of that code that can sue you for remixing and *redistributing* their copyrighted works? (yes, if you never redistributed, you'd probably have no problem, but that's not what the FSF is aiming for).
At the mercy of manufacturers Posted Jul 29, 2013 7:57 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering#Legality
Reverse-engineering is legal in US and EU for interoperability purposes only, if I understand correctly. I don't think reverse-engineering drivers can fall into this category, even though reverse-engineering drivers are many.
Sure, you can stay in some country where the local copyright law is less tight and less enforced.
And, Yes, redistribution can be a problem in theory (still depends country, I believe). But I cannot see how CyanogenMod could potentially irritate phone vendors. Don't over-estimate Android version's impact on phone lifespan.
At the mercy of manufacturers Posted Jul 29, 2013 16:43 UTC (Mon) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
what could be more 'interoperability' that drivers? the whole purpose of reverse engineering drivers in to 'interoperate' with the hardware.
At the mercy of manufacturers Posted Jul 29, 2013 17:01 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Yes, you can see it that way.
But I may also see reverse engineering drivers as competing drivers to the original ones.
Hope someone with more expertise can give a definite say here.
At the mercy of manufacturers Posted Jul 29, 2013 17:28 UTC (Mon) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
people don't buy drivers, they buy hardware.
And it's hard to swallow that it's competition for the drivers when the drivers that are being reverse engineered aren't available for the target operating system (including when they are not licensed in a way that's compatible with the target operating system)
At the mercy of manufacturers Posted Jul 29, 2013 15:44 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Maybe you can show some previous alternative firmwares that are being sued and discontinued.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 27, 2013 10:18 UTC (Sat) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link] like the wifi firmware Why is the wifi firmware any different from the other firmwares? Just because it is included in the OS image? ... This "logic" never made sense to me.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 27, 2013 12:12 UTC (Sat) by swetland (subscriber, #63414) [Link]
My point was that the wifi firmware can represent a nontrivial amount of work to replace, compared to smaller/simpler userspace proprietary components, not that it's particularly special.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 12:29 UTC (Fri) by tpo (subscriber, #25713) [Link] "parasite on other people's stuff"? You mean that seriously, right? No trolling? From this and other similar comments of yours I am getting the impression that you have a "pragmatic" philosophy:
If I'm not grossly misinterpreting your stance then I think it could be worthwhile to read up a bit on why those people (named "weirdos" above) are doing what they do. It might well be that you do not care and even if you'd read up, you still wouldn't agree. However those people are not idiots, they have thoroughly thought about the problems and their actions and their justifications are based on those reflections. Documents explaining the FSF's rationales should be findable on their site. There's certainly other interesting texts to find about the subject if you look for them or ask here.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 14:00 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Parasite means parasite.
By buying a commodity Android phone, you are already funding various companies produce non-free software, paying patent tax to Microsoft, etc. Then you are very happy that you flash your phone with a handicapped firmware. Shrug.
Alternatively, explain why FSF-endorsed distributions are a negligible niche in the so-called Linux community.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 27, 2013 18:20 UTC (Sat) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
Buy a second-hand phone? The first sale doctrine still works there.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 28, 2013 3:44 UTC (Sun) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Yes, the seller can probably buy a more expensive phone, then.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 12:34 UTC (Fri) by oever (subscriber, #987) [Link]
maxiaojun, the FSF does not do language research (philology). They advocate free software and act in the spirit they advocate by reusing software. I do not know why that riles you. If you are upset with people doing useful work, just look elsewhere.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 13:43 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
I was trying to say philosophy.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 14:54 UTC (Fri) by sml (subscriber, #75391) [Link]
It's true that at times the FSF can take what seems to be an extreme position.
However time and time again, they have proven to have been just a little more perceptive than most.
For example, regarding recent NSA revelations, look at what RMS was saying in 2008:
> "One reason you should not use web applications to do your computing is that
Who knows what backdoors proprietary vendors are putting into our mobile software (and hardware) today, that we'll find out about in a decade or so? The FSF are doing outstanding and very important work.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 15:10 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
You are right. But if your concern your privacy as much as RMS, you better give up mobile phone usage at all.
Someone already mentioned, except OsmocomBB, all baseband software are proprietary. And certainly, carriers can spy you in arbitrary ways no matter how free your phone is.
Therefore, I failed to see the reasons why people is bothered when the OpenGL drivers on their phones are not wholly FOSS.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 15:33 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] The proprietary baseband software and the not-wholly-FOSS OpenGL driver are both problems in need of fixes, and you should not treat either problem as a reason to dismiss people's concerns about the other problem.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 16:56 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Yes, but fixing OpenGL shouldn't have any impact on privacy. And baseband should be unfixable on most devices. So Replicant has better privacy protection may be just a myth.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 27, 2013 5:26 UTC (Sat) by swetland (subscriber, #63414) [Link]
If you're concerned about the baseband and privacy, focusing on devices where the baseband is a discrete device instead of fully integrated with the AP (no need to wonder if there's adequate isolation between various internal cores, memories, peripherals, etc), where the codec (and thus audio routing) is controlled only by the AP (thus the baseband can't decide to listen to you without the OS conspiring with it), and where the AP is able to depower the baseband entirely (if you want to go for maximum paranoia and just power it off entirely if you're not making a call or using mobile data), would be the thing to do.
High integration tends to allow for smaller, lower cost, lower power solutions, so it is often favored by OEMs, but implementation does vary and you can find devices out there that still use discrete baseband designs.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 27, 2013 6:31 UTC (Sat) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Thank you very much for your information.
What I infer from your information is that despite the fun of baseband replacing, it cannot have a noticeable social effect as some, if not many, devices' baseband are not replaceable in the first place.
The reason I focus on social effect is that if you are one out of 100 people using LibreOffice, you are just a distractor. Some imaginary social benefits of free software adoption are just irrelevant in this case.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 15:38 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]
Did I and others not mention why it matters? Having a binary blob that works only with some kernel version means that you forego the benefits of potential updates to the parts that are Free Software: that binary holds you back and keeps you on that specific kernel version (and any dependent user space stuff) until you get tired and make an excuse about buying a new phone.
It has bothered me and others in practice when we have had to put up with binary GPU drivers for our workstations, where someone has to go scurrying off to Nvidia's Web site to get something that might work, and then go through an installation ceremony that would be avoided if only Nvidia's stuff were a proper part of the system. So if you fail to see practical inconvenience as anything to be bothered about, I'm sure you have a long and happy career ahead of you in front-line support. Just remember that the inconvenienced users aren't enjoying it as much as you might be.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 16:46 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
> Having a binary blob that works only with some kernel version means that you forego the benefits of potential updates to the parts that are Free Software: that binary holds you back and keeps you on that specific kernel version (and any dependent user space stuff) until you get tired and make an excuse about buying a new phone.
Cool, if a kernel constantly breaks its ABI, it should be a good one (for example Linux).
Well, even if I share this vision of kernel and acknowledge your practical concern, it is still unrelated to the free software dogma that FSF always try to propaganda.
PC is a different story, are there fund raisings for Nouveau and/or Bumblebee project?
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 23:18 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]
One can debate whether the kernel driver ABI should be stable or not (and what that says about the developers), but not having the source code for something usually proves to be an annoyance in the long term. As for "dogma" and "propaganda", as well as previous references to pragmatism, the insistence on the four freedoms follows from practical observations from situations where people were inconvenienced (and still are) when those freedoms aren't available. The FSF aren't making stuff up for the fun of it.
And as for Nouveau, I thought that there was a fundraising campaign for it, or perhaps for other GPU-related projects.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 27, 2013 3:27 UTC (Sat) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Four-freedom should sound nice to everyone. But in practice, free software often have more issues. For example, compare a FSF-endorsed GNU/Linux distribution and Windows on driver support of commodity PC.
The reason is simple; parasite on other people's ecosystem isn't going to work well on a large scale. A few dissenters cannot make every hardware of much much larger ecosystem work nicely. For example, Nouveau just have serious regression on one of my old laptop (pre-install OS was Vista). I just don't have enough energy to debug and report this issue currently. Not to mention that Nouveau still have many missing features. Another example is that some OpenWrt hacker also brick their wireless routers occasionally.
( Some Linux users get excited whenever drivers get improvements. I get baffled instead, is a working full-feature driver such a luxury that we need at least a few years to see? )
Replicant is nothing wrong of its own. But I think FSF should be more selective and should try to endorse more original projects only. Parasite-based project will hit a wall before it has noticeable social effect outside FOSS-chamber.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 27, 2013 5:30 UTC (Sat) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640) [Link]
> I just don't have enough energy to debug and report this issue currently
But somehow you have plenty of energy to spread negativity and argue with people in the internets.
I don't know about you, but I would feel having achieved something after debugging reporting and bug in a free software project, which is not the feeling one gets from arguing...
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 27, 2013 6:23 UTC (Sat) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
> I would feel having achieved something after debugging reporting and bug in a free software project
Search the bugs I reported or participated before and check the responses. Few of them is hardware related, though.
Commenting on LWN is much less pressured ( The pressure of debugging comes from the fact that I have to keep the system in a bug reproducible state for quite some time. For example, to keep Nouveau bug reproducible, I have to live with a broken system. ) . And I have greater freedom to express negative prospective. Some project just sucks, to a extent that I believe sane people shouldn't waste their time there, but they always considered themselves winners because they are doing FOSS.
People say PC, whose official OS is Windows (find a non-niche PC vendor doesn't say they recommend Windows), is losing relevance. But the same applies for many traditional FOSS projects. That's why I find free software dogma more and more banal these days. I comment on LWN, is LWN website (not including content) free software? Which decision is more important, using Replicant or using FOSS Android App only? How many people here managed to use FOSS Android App only?
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 27, 2013 13:43 UTC (Sat) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] People say PC, whose official OS is Windows And there you have it! Who says that the "official OS" of the PC is Windows? You accept the tying of a software product to a hardware platform as if it were the most natural thing in the world when it is, in fact, an artificial arrangement brought about by anticompetitive meddling. Are you even aware that before Microsoft got into trouble for bundling things like media players and Web browsers, the company was demanding OS licensing payments for every Intel processor sold regardless of whether the purchaser would be running their software? Only if you challenge your assumptions about what is natural and normal will you see that you have been deceived. For those of us who have been around long enough to know that things weren't always this way, it is easier to see the deception, but maybe for those whose first computing experience was Windows on Intel it is more difficult to roll back the prejudices established from the very beginning of their computing experiences. Maybe you are part of this latter group. Choice and competition are essential things, both in the marketplace and in what people decide to do with their own time and resources. I find it difficult to understand why anyone would argue for a corporate-imposed monoculture and spend so much time telling people not to bother supporting other initiatives. And the real "parasites" here are those companies that have inserted themselves into a position of guaranteed revenue, regardless of whether anyone wanted to choose those companies' products in the first place. Perhaps you should try and understand the history of the industry before telling people who clearly do understand it what they should and shouldn't be doing.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 28, 2013 3:38 UTC (Sun) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
> Are you even aware that before Microsoft got into trouble for bundling things like media players and Web browsers, the company was demanding OS licensing payments for every Intel processor sold regardless of whether the purchaser would be running their software?
Is there anything wrong with that? Why don't you buy fancy m68k, PowerPC, Zilog, whatever instead?
All you write sounds like losers' grumble.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 28, 2013 14:28 UTC (Sun) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] Excuse me? Is there anything wrong with one company demanding payment when another company delivers a product? Yes there is: educate yourself about competition law before you accuse others of being "parasites" and "losers". Intel has been fortunate that, for example, AMD did not manage to deliver enough volume around ten years or so ago when they had the edge over Intel, but then again Intel managed to keep AMD's products away from the market: If things like facts and established codes of ethics can't persuade you that we need things like regulators and alternatives, then I can't see you move beyond name-calling, sadly.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 28, 2013 17:42 UTC (Sun) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
> educate yourself about competition law
Well, maybe the particular practice you mentioned did violated some law in some country, who knows. I hope you better provide full source of evidence. There are dozens if not hundreds of microprocessor vendors out there. Why cannot one software company out of countless many have a deal with a microprocessor company? Do you presume that, IBM-PC, a particular configuration of Intel microprocessor and friends the only way of doing personal computing? Certainly it is not the case today. At the end of day, if Microsoft Tax is that high, why tax payers do not embrace an alternative? I think Microsoft splitting makes perfect sense, but we didn't get there.
Anyway, the practice is not happening and I doubt it ever happened, despite conceived.
As I mentioned, Intel is also a company tried to extinguish competition by immoral and potentially illegal method. I can also say that Google utilize their de facto monopoly in web search to promote their Web browser and more. There are other Google "evil" doings. The only problem with Microsoft seems to be that fact their immoral actions were too successful; gains many haters.
Many people have problems with Windows's monopoly. But I doubt whether there are any real demands for non-Windows system outside FOSS and/or Unix chamber. Why all major PC vendors being loyal Microsoft Tax payer and Windows promoters? Why component vendors (GPU, Printers, Gaming mice, etc.) always give 100% working Windows driver without giving a shit to anything else (except OSX sometimes) ? Why pre-installed Linux system often being replaced by pirated Windows system right way? Why it is still very hard to buy a Unix friendly IBM-PC? Even guru like Lennart Poettering asked on G+ about which model to buy (from Samsung, IIRC). If there is really a noticeable demand, why there is no supply? Remember, The hypes about Linux started as early as 2000 and virtually every year is the year of Linux desktop.
On the other hand, the products really challenged the relevance of Windows, are those redefined the way of using personal computing, e.g., iPhone, and created new demand. That's the key difference between innovative product and parasitic product. Parasitic product can gain a small market share, e.g., 1%, and that's it. Using this criteria, Ubuntu Edge (not contributed a cent yet) is on right track and Replicant is not.
I'd also remind you again that you are paying Microsoft Tax in terms of patent by buying Android devices. You are free to handicap your devices with Replicant. But I really doubt how can explain to non-technical what the h--l is Replicant.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 13:34 UTC (Mon) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] Anyway, the practice is not happening and I doubt it ever happened, despite conceived. This is history denial as I have pointed out in another response.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 28, 2013 12:15 UTC (Sun) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
BTW, Intel is the company whose compiler tries to cripple AMD performance until they are forced to remove such stuff.
http://www.osnews.com/story/22683/Intel_Forced_to_Remove_...
Shouldn't you boycott Intel products because you are a choice advocate?
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 28, 2013 18:55 UTC (Sun) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Windows haters are sometimes vocal. But I seriously doubt whether they are the majority. And I don't think geeks should have more says on this issue; they are not unbiased as everyone else.
But a fact is that, most computer vendors, most component vendors, most ISVs, most users (pirate or not) all "vote" for Windows despite the fact Microsoft is a presumptive "evil" company.
Many of Microsoft very immoral practices have been things of past. I really feel that, Apple is actually the most "close-minded" company now. For example, watching WWDC requires QuickTime while Build Windows offers WebM video.
I don't like Microsoft and want diversity also. But I don't think contribute to PC Linux specific stuff can ultimately have noticeable impact. (Contribution can be fun and/or painful, though.) The evidence is obvious, where is the Linux friendly PC supply after more than one decade of advocate? (I know there is some niche vendors.) If I have spare money, I'd "vote" for Ubuntu Edge, Chromebook or MacBook. These devices may also involve Microsoft Tax somehow but at least they are demand-creating products that can potentially challenge Windows's monopoly.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 1:21 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
Could you please take your stuff elsewhere? This article is not about Windows, Apple, etc.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 5:38 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
No. It also explain why parasitic project like Replicant won't go beyond a niche.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 17:51 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
Maybe I missed this in your other comments, but on what basis are you calling Replicant a "parasitic project"? Are they stealing developer resources from other projects? If you're referring to code, it's FOSS and there's nothing you nor I can do about them using it how they see fit.
I see:
> By buying a commodity Android phone, you are already funding various companies produce non-free software, paying patent tax to Microsoft, etc.
But how does that mean the *FSF* the parasite, and not Microsoft?
If Replicant doesn't go beyond a niche, I'd expect the developers are fine with that (though they may be disappointed) since freedom is their ultimate goal.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 1, 2013 15:35 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
A project that forks another and make some changes are not necessarily parasitic. For example, Go-oo, nowadays LibreOffice, is not parasitic project over OpenOffice.org, nowadays Apache OpenOffice. The reason is that both OOo and Go-oo are not generally related to hardware OEM. They compete freely and equally.
Replicant, on the other hand, try to compete with the origin firmwares come with smart phones. The origin firmwares have 100% market share when the phones are traded. All modified firmwares are therefore parasites. Such parasites can bring fun to a certain group of people, i.e., geeks. However, it won't make free software in FSF sense the mainstream by all means.
Regarding the patent "tax" of MSFT, I'm not trying to say that MSFT is doing any good. And I have serious problems with the current state of exFAT. The point is, the real economic effect of buying an Android phone and flash Replicant maybe totally unrelated to the advance of free software. I don't know good alternative phones, though, I'm still using N9.
BTW, MSFT released Office Mobile for Android the other day: http://blogs.office.com/b/office365tech/archive/2013/07/3...
Maybe this is another example shows why the real "battle" is not about whether the OpenGL drivers of the Android phones are FOSS or not.
From what I've observed, the ODF camp doesn't gain notable supporters outside AOO and LibO. Sharing ODF files among big-three-OS is not smooth actually due to font issues. The ODF camp is certainly lag in mobile world and probably fall behind in Web world also.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 1, 2013 16:03 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
> Replicant, on the other hand, try to compete with the origin firmwares come with smart phones. The origin firmwares have 100% market share when the phones are traded.
So if Microsoft forced all OEM manufacturers to only sell Windows (which isn't beyond them (see BeOS' battle to get shipped on PC's)), Linux now becomes a parasite? Also, all Apple hardware sells with OS X or iOS. Is any distribution which runs on it a parasite as well?
Really, I think you're missing the point. As said elsewhere, people don't buy a phone for its firmware or drivers and users typically don't care about whether they're replaceable or not. However, the FSF *does* care and considers it important enough to work on. Whether they get users of their project directly isn't the end goal; getting more phones to use more free firmware *is* and if they don't do the work, who else has made any indication that they're willing?
> Maybe this is another example shows why the real "battle" is not about whether the OpenGL drivers of the Android phones are FOSS or not.
So because it's not the most important "battle", we should drop everything related to it? That's a great plan there, General.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 1, 2013 16:34 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
> So if Microsoft forced all OEM manufacturers to only sell Windows (which isn't beyond them (see BeOS' battle to get shipped on PC's)), Linux now becomes a parasite?
No one cares about "force". Everyone cares about profit. Unless you can otherwise show MSFT used some illicit measures to actively hinder Linux (recent 5 years, please) adoption. I rather find the reason is that almost no home users really want to use Linux. What I've observed is people that actively replace pre-installed Linux with pirated pirated Windows after PC purchase.
The Linux on IBM-PC is considered parasite because I cannot find a single IBM-PC model from major vendors that is primarily designed with Linux in mind. Can you find one? Chromebook doesn't count here.
By the way, I've heard that people who bought IBM-PC model with Linux pre-installed get very poor support at end of day. That's no surprise to me as I mentioned no one is serious about Linux prodigies at all.
> Also, all Apple hardware sells with OS X or iOS. Is any distribution which runs on it a parasite as well?
Sure.
> Whether they get users of their project directly isn't the end goal; getting more phones to use more free firmware *is* and if they don't do the work, who else has made any indication that they're willing?
If end user is not a priority of FOSS project in general, I would seriously whether FOSS is doing any good to the society and whether it is worth to contribute a minute and/or a penny.
If the endorsement of Replicant is just an "indication" that FSF cares about smart phones. Well, any one outside of FOSS-chamber cares? Even if the general public might look dumb from time to time, they are indeed wise in the sense that they value originality and innovation, rather than illusionary freedom.
> So because it's not the most important "battle", we should drop everything related to it?
I was not trying to infer that. But which thing is more important may be something needs some consideration when one wants to donate money but doesn't have infinite budget.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 1, 2013 20:08 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
> <crazy definition of parasitism>
WTF? Why are you here then? By this logic, we should all be grateful for the crap that companies do give us since any use of it other than the designed and intended purposes is a bastardization of their hard work, good nature, and kindness at letting us even *know* of their products. I call bullshit.
> If end user is not a priority of FOSS project in general, I would seriously whether FOSS is doing any good to the society and whether it is worth to contribute a minute and/or a penny.
I didn't say it's not a priority, it's just not the end goal.
> I was not trying to infer that. But which thing is more important may be something needs some consideration when one wants to donate money but doesn't have infinite budget.
Sure, that's the same with anything that requires money. Do you have suggestions for where else for people with extra money looking to make free software/culture/hardware better to contribute which would have a more "useful" impact?
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 1, 2013 16:41 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
> As said elsewhere, people don't buy a phone for its firmware or drivers and users typically don't care about whether they're replaceable or not.
People buy phones for a good combination of hardware and software. Very few phone vendors use stock Android, they generally customize Android to fit their vision. The additional components in the customizations are generally proprietary, sorry free software zealot.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 1, 2013 19:50 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
> People buy phones for a good combination of hardware and software.
That's basically what I said; the firmware is the least of their worries. Who asks "but are they Qualcomm drivers?" when buying a phone? The stuff in the middle is the stuff which users care about least.
> Very few phone vendors use stock Android, they generally customize Android to fit their vision. The additional components in the customizations are generally proprietary <snip>.
What's the point here? Yes, people buy non-free software; that's nothing new.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 2, 2013 5:20 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Who asks "but are they Qualcomm drivers?" when buying a phone?
No one.
But you know Samsung S Pen? HTC Sense? MIUI? The list can continue.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 6:08 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
> Microsoft got into trouble for bundling things like media players and Web browsers
Yes, these are problems because the couple between Windows and IE, for example, is too tight.
On the surface level, it's a different story, though.
What is purported more "moral" competitor, a typical Linux distribution, doing? Integrating even more stuff, a full functional productivity suite, a full functional text editor, a full functional archive manager, etc.
Another detail is that Windows allows easy show/hide access of certain programs as shown in the following link: http://www.7tutorials.com/how-set-program-access-and-comp...
I seriously don't how to easily hide the access of Firefox, for example, on Fedora/GNOME Shell system. I know I can edit a .desktop file.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 13:33 UTC (Mon) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] Microsoft got into trouble for bundling things like media players and Web browsers You cut the "before" and the actual point I was making, to which you responded with flat-out denial despite the fact that it is documented in the historical record. I dug up a reference from 1994 ("Deal clears deck for Novell DOS 7.0", Personal Computer World, October 1994), but you can find a summary of the investigation here. The PCW article says (amongst other things)... Microsoft agreed to stop: * charging royalties on a 'per processor' basis. In effect, this meant PC vendors paid Microsoft a fee even on PCs not using MSDOS, thus putting an extra premium on sales of DOS 7.0, NetWare, or OS/2. As far as media player and browser bundling is concerned, I was merely using those things as a point of reference. In fact, the EU should have forced vendors to unbundle the Windows product completely and given everyone the choice of which OS they want to run. Once upon a time you could expect major vendors to offer a choice or not even ship an OS at all, but I expect you'll deny that now because you never saw it personally. I tolerate curiosity and even ignorance, but I draw the line at the denial of history.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 14:17 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
So a issue of almost 20 years ago still annoys you? I don't understand why you are so concerned about such junk. I care the issue you presented as much as how much I care about Germany's invasions in WWII. Can you please be more focused on what is happening today or recently?
Yes, there is naked PC, there is PC pre-install FreeDOS, i.e., effectively naked, etc.
So what?
Can you find a single PC model from any of major PC vendors that doesn't have fully working Windows drivers but have fully working drivers on other OS?
Can you find a single piece of PC component or peripheral that doesn't have fully working Windows drivers but have fully working drivers on other OS?
Why only one OS, Windows, is subjected to browser ballot and media player removal in EU? Isn't this unfair?
Any EU country has non-negligible usage share of non-Windows, non-OSX OS?
Any noticeable component vendors give serious shit to non-Windows, non-OSX OS?
Any noticeable ISVs give more shit to non-Windows, non-OSX OS than Windows and/or OSXcd, except special things like CrossOver and Fluendo?
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 15:47 UTC (Mon) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] Why only one OS, Windows, is subjected to browser ballot and media player removal in EU? Isn't this unfair? No, it isn't unfair (at least, it's not unfair in a way harmful to Microsoft). As I understand it, Microsoft was found to have illegally abused its monopoly in the desktop operating systems market in pursuit of a monopoly in the web browser market; the "browser choice" system (i.e. compelling them to "play nice" in the web browser market by actively making Windows users aware of competitors to IE) is thus a reasonable remedy to require from Microsoft.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 16:06 UTC (Mon) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
IIRC, Netscape was a pay ware. So IE hurt it hard. But, today, once a user uses her OS bundled browser to visit Google, she get the recommendation of Google Chrome...
I agree that Microsoft's IE bundling gives IE an unfair advantage on Windows. But shouldn't Ubuntu users be aware of Firefox competitors? Shouldn't OSX users be aware of Safari competitors?
Well, maybe someone believe that the monopoly player must help its competitors. Maybe there is even some law enforce that. But Windows's situation by itself is not actually worse than Ubuntu or OSX.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 16:41 UTC (Mon) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] Competition law doesn't usually require a monopolist to help their competitors. It does, however, usually require them to not actively hinder their competitors. If they are found guilty of doing so, then the equitable remedy imposed as part of the judgement will typically require them to help the competitors they were actively hindering.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 31, 2013 15:03 UTC (Wed) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]
Do you even believe what you write? I assume you are not intentionally trolling, and that means you are seriously out of touch with reality. Servers provide you with a ton of evidence that your so-called parasiting is extremely effective. The linux kernel in itself is a prime example. Drivers is today a perfect example, nouveau is soon the only remaining challenge on the desktop. Intel and radeon miss some performance improvement and opengl extensions, both coming within a year or two with the current pace. Crawl out from your rock and smell a breath of free air.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 1, 2013 15:05 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
> Drivers is today a perfect example
I've been using Linux desktop, not exclusively, starting from the days before the launch of Ubuntu.
Have you long forgotten the joy of serious 3D gaming? If you don't have problems working with handicapped GPU drivers for a decade, I have. Ask a Steam gamer whether open source GPU drivers are "perfect".
The Linux kernel is meta-project serving people with different interests; not parasitic. The interests could range from smart phones to supercomputing, Yes. But, as I mentioned, on the land of IBM-PC, no major vendors in the ecosystem is serious about Linux support. Linux distributions built for IBM-PC are therefore parasites.
If you think Linux works perfectly on your IBM-PC machines, fine. I'd ask two things.
1. How can you verify that your machine is fully hardware enabled. For example, assume that you get a laptop which has no working WiFi, how can tell these three cases: there is no WiFi hardware at all, the WiFi hardware has some unfixable problem, the driver installation is wrong.
( The performance of b43 driver are quite random among my laptops. I switched to wl driver on some of them. )
2. Can you help many people out there find their Linux installation produces more heat, keep cooling fan turned on, etc. on their laptops. I've seen some proposed methods. But I've found none of them universal and there doesn't seem to have a simple way of "resetting".
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 1, 2013 15:28 UTC (Thu) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]
(disclaimer... I work 9 to 5 in the team that supports a park of >3000 Windows machines)
> 1....
Are you seriously trying to tell me that Windows does not have such problems? We have mainly Dells and HPs, and we have those (and other) bugs to deal with all the time.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 1, 2013 15:48 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
The story of Windows broken from a not unbiased people isn't interesting by all means.
For 1 and 2, i don't have enough samples to argue Windows is perfect, but it is certainly much better. Maybe some prodigy prefers lspci to Device Manager, maybe.
Let me ask some more questions. When a stupid driver choke your machine, how can you *reliably* enter a safe mode when using Linux? How to know which driver is the culprit? How to disable the culprit driver then?
Also, consider why you are doing Windows support even if you might be a Linux fan. What's the economic reasons behind it?
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 1, 2013 18:17 UTC (Thu) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]
> The story of Windows broken from a not unbiased people isn't interesting by all means.
I couldn't parse your triple negatives properly... you meant "hummassa is biased therefore his story is not interesting" or "hummassa is unbiased therefore his story could be interesting?"
> For 1 and 2, i don't have enough samples to argue Windows is perfect, but it is certainly much better.
Not in my experience. It's marginally better for *most* hardware, certainly better for *some* hardware, and utmostly worse for *many* machines.
> Maybe some prodigy prefers lspci to Device Manager, maybe.
That is exactly the problem: lspci works. Always. Device Manager, when you have a borked driver, eh, you are not guaranteed to get there, better re-image the machine. User, kiss your data good-bye.
> When a stupid driver choke your machine, how can you *reliably* enter a safe mode when using Linux?
Usually there is a recovery option in the Grub menu. If there isn't, there are incantations to get there (F8 during an exact two-second window is an incantation, too, you know?)
The probability of that working is higher than the probability of F8-induced coma-wake-up working on linux.
> How to know which driver is the culprit?
Simple: read /var/log/dmesg*, modprobe the last used drivers in order, wait for the panic :D
> How to disable the culprit driver then?
/etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf
> Also, consider why you are doing Windows support even if you might be a Linux fan. What's the economic reasons behind it?
Many, many reasons, in a vicious circle:
1. Dell/HP &c bundle license cost in computer cost;
Our user's machines are Windows, but all the servers infrastructure are Linux.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 2, 2013 6:05 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
When you compare Linux and Windows. Are you comparing Linux server you support and Windows desktop you support? Conclusion cannot be draw from such settings because server usage and desktop usage have totally different patterns.
Have you supported Linux desktop also? In what scale?
Since you seems to be quite experienced with driver issues, Cool. Still have some questions.
From my experience, the initial setup of Windows can be erratic. But once a working setup is there, it's very unlikely to have driver issues again. Do you think so? In what situation can you get a setup with driver issues from a non-savvy user?
For Linux, well, despite the lack of formal support (I know servers have formal support, but desktops and laptops don't), kernel and/or Xorg upgrade can have random effects. I guess it is pretty safe stay with RHEL/CentOS, though desktop application installation can be quite hard there. But if it is Arch, even Ubuntu, things can be "fun".
In fact, some pirated distribution of Windows (the most famous one may be Tomato Garden) get automatic driver installation working at least 99% of times many years ago. People seldom bother with driver issues afterwards. So it is a bit surprised to me that you seems to suffering from it still. Even if genuine Windows may require manual driver installation, Dell/HP should have listed nicely working drivers for models on their website.
For the reasons 1-5 you mentioned. I guess developer experience is a key factor. From a surface level, you may ask your fellows about their opinions on Lazarus. I look forward to hearing your answer.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 2, 2013 14:45 UTC (Fri) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]
> When you compare Linux and Windows. Are you comparing Linux server you support and Windows desktop you support? Conclusion cannot be draw from such settings because server usage and desktop usage have totally different patterns.
You are 100% right.
> Have you supported Linux desktop also? In what scale?
Yes, but, yes, in much smaller scale (1% = 30 desktops, largely of the same hardware types as the Windows desktops), but with some exclusivity (I am part of a team of 30 people that gives suppport to the Windows desktops, but I am the sole responsible for the support to the Linux desktops, and the Mac support team is me plus one colleague).
> Since you seems to be quite experienced with driver issues, Cool. Still have some questions.
> From my experience, the initial setup of Windows can be erratic. But once a working setup is there, it's very unlikely to have driver issues again. Do you think so? In what situation can you get a setup with driver issues from a non-savvy user?
It is my experience that, in an enterprise, non-savvy users do not install operating systems. We do that in the lab, for the new batch of computers, get it right, and clone the others.
> For Linux, well, despite the lack of formal support (I know servers have formal support, but desktops and laptops don't), kernel and/or Xorg upgrade can have random effects. I guess it is pretty safe stay with RHEL/CentOS, though desktop application installation can be quite hard there. But if it is Arch, even Ubuntu, things can be "fun".
You don't upgrade critical Windows major versions without review (hell, we don't even let users' machines install the Windows shutdown-time hotfixes without reviewing them). If you keep the same procedure for Linux, you'll be safe too.
> In fact, some pirated distribution of Windows (the most famous one may be Tomato Garden) get automatic driver installation working at least 99% of times many years ago. People seldom bother with driver issues afterwards. So it is a bit surprised to me that you seems to suffering from it still.
I believe you (seriously). More ahead.
> Even if genuine Windows may require manual driver installation, Dell/HP should have listed nicely working drivers for models on their website.
Dell and HP are actually the culprits, driver-wise speaking. They change their models' chipsets mid-batch and their drivers are not always perfectly aligned. These are the source of many of our headaches. Sometimes some other hardware's drivers (I'm looking at you, Lexmark) causes evil drivers interactions, too.
> For the reasons 1-5 you mentioned. I guess developer experience is a key factor.
Yes, it is. Availability, too. (more ahead, again :D)
> From a surface level, you may ask your fellows about their opinions on Lazarus. I look forward to hearing your answer.
I use Lazarus here, the initial fellow-developer reaction is "that's Delphi, isn't it?" :D Now, seriously, we don't migrate everyone to Lazarus because my city has a score of Delphi consultants that we can contract if something goes wrong or if we have a spike on development needs...
That and politics. Recently, thanks to some database-driver problems, we had to migrate the database-middleware-layer away from BDE. To Zeos, you ask? No, to "pay-for-upgrades, pay-for-every-bug-correction" UniDAC. Go figure.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Aug 3, 2013 6:29 UTC (Sat) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]
I have been using linux as my main workhorse since rhel came to existence about ten years ago. It replaced much more expensive SGI Octane machines running Irix Unix. I believe this is exactly what you see as parasiting. Otherwise you will have a very hard time coming up with a definition of parasiting that is remotely consistent.
Since then I have been through a number of workstations from IBM and HP. The only software related instabilities we have had has to my recollection always been related to the nvidia driver, the only closed source component on these machines.
The next linux kernel comes with full power management for ati cards in the open source driver. Head over to phoronix and you will see that it is in good shape. Intel has had it for some time, nouveau is working on it. Laptops running hot from open gpu drivers is soon history.
Wireless is another sucsess story. Broadcom is the only vendor left fucking up, and it hurts them big-time. The are totally left out of the Android market, while Atheros is doing great. Even Broadcom has caved in these days, have a look at the brcmsmac driver. Still not at the level of Atheros and Intel, but it may get there.
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 26, 2013 15:24 UTC (Fri) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Telecommunication industry is always strictly controlled by governments; that's the major issue if you don't fully trust your government.
How can a switch from Opera to Firefox or origin firmware to Replicant help?
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 27, 2013 21:36 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] Telecommunication industry is always strictly controlled by governmentsThat's certainly not true in the UK -- sure, law-and-order and the spooks can tap into it, but it's not controlled by the government, just regulated (with a remarkably toothless regulator) and with one big fish which used to be nationalized (BT). (But not as big a fish as it used to be: it bet the farm on going global and on mobile and failed at both.)
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 28, 2013 3:18 UTC (Sun) by maxiaojun (subscriber, #91482) [Link]
Yes, your word is more precise. But are you sure that the private firms won't reveal your information when needed "by law"?
FSF raising funds for the Replicant project Posted Jul 29, 2013 16:05 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Well, of course they will, unless they want legal sanctions to be applied against them. But that doesn't mean they're government-controlled any more than it means that I'm a government agent because I'll have legal sanctions applied against me if I mug someone. They're part of a (not very well) regulated industry.
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