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Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

By Michael Kerrisk
April 17, 2013

Given Eben Moglen's long association with the Free Software Foundation, his work on drafting the GPLv3, and his role as President and Executive Director of the Software Freedom Law Center, his talk at the 2013 Free Software Legal and Licensing Workshop promised to be thought-provoking. He chose to focus on two topics that he saw as particularly relevant for the free software ecosystem within the next five years: patents and the decline of copyleft licenses.

The patent wars

"We are in the middle of the patent war, and we need to understand where we are and where the war is going." Eben estimates the cost of the patent war so far at US$40 billion—an amount spread between the costs of ammunition (patents and legal maneuvers) and the costs of combat (damage to business). There has been no technical benefit of any kind from that cost, and the war has reached the point where patent law is beginning to distort the business of major manufacturers around the world, he said.

The effort that gave rise to the patent war—an effort primarily driven by the desires of certain industry incumbents to "stop time" by preventing competitive development in, for example, the smartphone industry—has failed. And, by now, the war has become too expensive, too wasteful, and too ineffective even for those who started it. According to Eben, now, at the mid-point of the patent war, the costs of the combat already exceed any benefit from the combat—by now, all companies that make products and deliver services would benefit from stopping the fight.

The nature of the war has also begun to change. In the US, hostility to patents was previously confined mainly to the free software community, but has now widened, Eben said. Richard Posner, a judge on the US Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, has spoken publicly against software patents (see, for example, Posner's blog post and article in The Atlantic). The number of American-born Nobel Prize winners who oppose software patents is rising every month. The libertarian wing of the US Republican party has started to come out against software patents (see, for example, this Forbes.com article, and this article by Ramesh Ponnuru, a well-known Republican pundit).

Thus, a broader coalition against software patents is likely to make a substantial effort to constrain software patenting for the first time since such patenting started expanding in the early 1990s, Eben said. The dismissal of the patent suit by Uniloc against Red Hat and Rackspace was more than a victory for the Red Hat lawyers, he said. When, as in that case, it is possible to successfully question the validity of a patent in a motion to dismiss, this signals that the economics of patent warfare are now shifting in the direction of software manufacturers. (An explanation of some of the details of US legal procedure relevant to this case can be found in this Groklaw article.)

Illustrating the complexities and international dimensions of the patent war, Eben noted that even as the doctrine of software patent ownership is beginning to collapse in the US, the patent war is spreading that doctrine to other parts of the world. Already, China, the second largest economy in the world, is issuing tens of thousands of patents a year. Before the end of the patent war—which Eben predicts will occur two to four years from now—China's software industry will be extensively patented. The ownership of those patents is concentrated in the hands of a few people and organizations with extremely strong ties to government in a system of weak rule of law, he said.

Long before peace is reached, the strategists and lawyers who got us into the patent war will be asking how to get out of the mess that the war has gotten them into, and everyone else in the industry is going to feel like collateral damage, Eben said. As usual, the free (software) world has been thinking about this problem longer than the business world. "We are going to save you in the end, just as we saved you by making free software in the first place."

We're at the mid-point of the patent war over mobile, Eben said. The "cloud services ammunition dumps [patents] will begin to go up in flames" about a year and a half from now. Those "ammunition dumps" are the last ones that have not yet been exploited in the patent wars; they're going to be exploited, he said. He noted that some companies will be feeling cornered after IBM's announcement that its cloud services will be based on OpenStack. Those companies will now want to use patents stop time.

As the patent wars progress, we're going to become more dependent on organizations such as the Open Invention Network (OIN) and on community defense systems, Eben said. OIN will continue to be a well-funded establishment; SFLC will continue to scrape by. Anyone in the room who isn't contributing to SFLC through their institutions is making a serious mistake, Eben said, because "we're able to do things you [company lawyers] can't do, and we can see things you cannot; you should be helping us, we're trying to help you".

The decline of copyleft

Eben then turned a discussion of copyleft licenses, focusing on the decline in their use, and the implications of that decline for industry sectors such as cloud services.

The community ecosystem of free software that sustains the business of "everyone in this room" is about to have too little copyleft in it, Eben said. He noted that from each individual firm's perspective, copyleft is an irritation. But seen across the industry as a whole, there is a minimum quantity of copyleft that is desirable, he said.

Up until now, there has been sufficient copyleft: the toolchain was copyleft, as was the kernel. That meant that companies did not invest in product differentiation in layers where such differentiation would cost more than it would benefit the company's bottom line. While acknowledging that there is a necessary lower bound to trade secrecy, Eben noted the "known problem" that individual firms always over-invest in trade secrecy.

The use of copyleft licenses has helped all major companies by allowing them to avoid over-investment in product differentiation, Eben said. In support of that point, he noted that the investments made by most producers of proprietary UNIX systems were an expensive mistake. "It was expensive to end the HP-UX business. It cost a lot to get into AIX, and it cost even more to get out." Such experiences meant that the copyleft-ness of the Linux kernel was welcomed, because it stopped differentiation in ways that were more expensive than they were valuable.

Another disadvantage of excess differentiation is that it makes it difficult to steal each another's customers, Eben said. And as businesses move from client-server architectures to cloud-to-mobile architectures, "we are entering a period where everyone wants to steal everyone else's customers". One implication of these facts is that more copyleft right now at layers where new infrastructure is being developed would prevent over-investment in (unnecessary) differentiation, he said. In Eben's view, people will come to look on OpenStack's permissive licensing with some regret, because they're going to over-invest in orchestration and management software layers to compete with one another. "I am advising firms around the world that individually are all spending too much money on things they won't share, which will create problems for them in the future." Eben estimates that several tens of millions of dollars are about to be invested that could have been avoided if copyleft licenses were used for key parts of the cloud services software stack.

There are other reasons that we are about to have too little copyleft, Eben said. Simon Phipps is right that young developers are losing faith in licensing, he said. Those developers are coming to the conclusion that permission culture is not worth worrying about and that licenses are a small problem. If they release software under no license, then "everyone in this room" stands to lose a lot of money because of the uncertainty that will result. Here, Eben reminded his audience that Stefano Zacchiroli had explained that the free software community needs help in explaining why license culture is critically important. (Eben's talk at the Workshop immediately followed the keynote speech by Stefano "Zack" Zacchiroli, the outgoing Debian Project Leader, which made for a good fit, since one of Eben's current roles is to act as pro bono legal counsel for the Debian community distribution.)

Eben also noted that SFLC is doing some licensing research on over three million repositories and said that Aaron Williamson is presenting the results at the Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit. Some people may find the results surprising, he said.

Another cause of trouble for copyleft is the rise in copyright trolling around the GPL. That is making people nervous that the license model that has served them well for twenty years is now going to cause them problems. Asked if he could provide some examples of bad actors doing such copyright trolling, Eben declined: "you know how it is"; one presumes he has awareness of some current legal disputes that may or may not become public. However, Eben is optimistic: he believes the copyright trolling problem will be solved and is not overly worried about it.

Eben said that all of the threats he had described—educating the community about licenses, copyright trolls, and over-investment in differentiation in parts of the software stack that should be copyleft but are instead licensed permissively—are going to be problems, but he believes they will be solved. "I'm going to end on a happy note by explaining a non-problem that many people are worrying about unnecessarily."

The OpenStack revolution is putting companies into the software-as-a-service business, which means that instead of distributing binaries they are going to be distributing services. Because of this, companies are worrying that the Affero GPL (AGPL) is going to hurt them. The good news is that it won't, Eben said. The AGPL was designed to work positively with business models based on software-as-a-service in the same way that the GPL was designed to work with business adoption of free software, he said. "We will teach people how the AGPL can be used without being a threat and how it can begin to do in the service world what the GPL did in the non-services software world."

Your editor's brief attempt at clarifying why the AGPL is not a problem but is instead a solution for software-as-a-service is as follows. The key effect of the AGPL is to make the GPL's source-code distribution provision apply even when providing software as a service over a network. However, the provision applies only to the software that is licensed under the AGPL, and to derived works that are created from that software. The provision does not apply to the other parts of the provider's software stack, just as, say, the Linux kernel's GPLv2 license has no effect on the licensing of user-space applications. Thus, the AGPL has the same ability to implicitly create a software development consortium effect in the software-as-a-service arena that the GPL had in the traditional software arena. Consequently, the AGPL holds out the same promise as the GPL of more cheaply creating a shared, non-differentiated software base on which software-as-a-service companies can then build their differentiated software business.

As Eben noted in response to a question later in the morning, if businesses run scared of the AGPL, and each company builds its own specific APIs for network services, then writing software that talks to all those services will be difficult. In addition, there will be wasteful over-investment in duplicating parts of the software stack that don't add differential value for a company and it will be difficult for companies to steal each other's customers. There are large, famous companies whose future depends on the AGPL, he said. "The only question is if they will discover that too late."

Eben concluded on a robustly confident note. "Everything is working as planned; free software is doing what Mr. Stallman and I hoped it would do over the last twenty years." The server market belongs to free software. The virtualization and cloud markets belong to free software. The Android revolution has made free software dominant (as a platform) on mobile devices. The patent wars are a wasteful annoyance, but they will be resolved. The free software communities have answers to the questions that businesses around the world are going to ask. "When Stefano [Zacchiroli] says we are going to need each other, he is being modest; what he means is you [lawyers] need him, and because you need him, and only because you need him, you need me."


(Log in to post comments)

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 17, 2013 12:48 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

I think FSF has a bit misguided opinion about the way companies work.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 17, 2013 13:02 UTC (Wed) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link]

I think that the various licensing regimes reflect the various human motives for code, and the convolution of all of them is greater than any of the free/open/proprietary communties by themselves.
The idea that anyone is rendered "immoral" by their licensing choice for a project is what seems too extreme.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 1:58 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

Copyright is something that predates software by a long long time. It's something that originated in government censorship and later adapted to keep the great publishing houses from losing profits due to competition from smaller publishers.

Therefore all the various licensing regimes are either attempts to exploit copyright to reduce competition in the market place (aka proprietary software producers) or represent slightly different attempts to thwart the negative influence of copyright over technological progress (ie. open source software producers) (regardless of how much the licensing authors understood what they were really trying to do).

I think the falling away of copyleft licensing represents a maturing of the sensibilities and understandings of people that participate in the open source market place. It is becoming understood that attempting to force people to share code when they do not want to share code is not really going to yield useful results. Even when you manage to force people to release code by exploiting government restrictions via copyright the results are not usually going to be favorable. A lot of money and effort is expended, good will is lost, and it does not seem that much useful code is released.

Better results are often gained by allowing people to profit from using open source code and then creating a environment were sharing code is beneficial to them and thus they are compelled to share code out of their own self interest.

The copyright regime is fundamentally corrupt. It's purpose is to restrict markets and it places significant advantages in the hands of big producers/publishers to the detriment of almost all other actors in the market place.

It could be that a lot of people interested in the 'permissive' approach are instinctively understanding this; even though it's very difficult to discern this given we are living in the midst of it (pervasive government controls of the market via copyright law) and is all we have known all our lives. It's much better economically to have more freedom, but maybe importantly: it is much more pleasant to live in a 'volunteer' community then a litigious one. I think it's a mistake to give up copyleft licenses completely, though, as they are a powerful weapon against copyright restrictions for end users and can create beneficial situations for developers were they can operate together under a implicit contractual basis even when the are natural competitors in the market place (like with the Linux kernel).

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 8:46 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

The copyright regime is fundamentally corrupt. It's purpose is to restrict markets and it places significant advantages in the hands of big producers/publishers to the detriment of almost all other actors in the market place.

Yes - and permissive licenses are helping them. The old article is still actual. Time will show but we can see in with Android, LLVM, etc why permissive licensing can be a problem: there are a lot things going there, but most of it is proprietary.

It could be that a lot of people interested in the 'permissive' approach are instinctively understanding this.

Yes, they “instinctively” understand this and then do the wrong choice: since they contribute voluntarily they kind-of-expect that people will continue to contribute if you'll make it easy. And in fact people (individual contributors) tend to do that. But companies... nope, they tend to develop internal forks and usually don't contribute anything upstream.

Copyleft scares companies (which means permissively licensed stuff gains initial adavantage), but if copyleft alternative manages to keep ant developers at all eventually it overcomes other forks. Linux is good example, the next large test will be LLVM, I guess: it moves pretty fast and the quality of code generated is very close to what GCC is producing, but it's easy to see how more and more work goes into proprietary forks and stops returning to the base.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 19, 2013 11:16 UTC (Fri) by mlopezibanez (guest, #66088) [Link]

You are right that it will be interesting to see whether LLVM manages to bring contributions back or it becomes a multitude of semi-proprietary forks.
However, the success of Clang/LLVM and the decline of GCC has more to do with community and architectural issues in GCC than with the GPL.
Clang/LLVM would have been as successful as it is using the GPL (version 2 to make Apple lawyers happy), but it would have taken a bit more time.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 21, 2013 13:44 UTC (Sun) by Lennie (subscriber, #49641) [Link]

Copyleft does not always prevent forks, look at WebKit/Blink. Business interrests can still lead to forks.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 28, 2013 16:21 UTC (Sun) by wtanksleyjr (subscriber, #74601) [Link]

You said: "if copyleft alternative manages to keep ant developers at all eventually it overcomes other forks."

I'm sure you meant to type "any developers" instead of "ant developers", but I delight in the idea of Copyleft development being an "ant colony algorithm".

Sorry, I had nothing to contribute; I just liked that picture.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 17, 2013 13:52 UTC (Wed) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]

Interesting to hear about the patent stuff.

The moving away from copyleft I'm afraid is unstoppable at this point. Many long time and loyal open source contributors will tell you they're not touching anything GPLv3 with a 10 foot pole, especially if they're doing anything embedded. As far for the AGPL, it's really being used as a bait-and-switch at this point: give the software away as AGPL and sell a license if the customer wants to run a custom version. In fact, I've seen a handful of projects that are simply dumping it because of the harm it's doing to their businesses. In the case of status.net, for instance, they just went ahead and rewrote everything from scratch and put it under ASL.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 17, 2013 15:44 UTC (Wed) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

It isn't hard to comply with the GPL or the AGPL, what are these folks afraid of?

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 17, 2013 18:22 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

It can be very very hard to comply with the AGPL in the business world. (I am not going to say corporate because even a mom and pop shop end up with these questions at times.)

Does a one line patch to some code to have a package run in /opt/foo versus /srv/foo need to be made public? In what way is properly making it public?

Does your config file need to be public (especially if the config file contains AGPL headers?)

Ask upstream and you get one answer, Ask your company lawyer and get another answer. As a "customer" ask a lawyer and get a third answer. Ask the FSF and you get possibly a fourth answer.

All of which may not have any meaning until brought before a court as the License may be seen as a Contract due to the fact that you are promising services (download of software) as a third party. Hopefully this can be clarified by various groups, but it is the unanswered Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt I have heard time and time again by even proponents of AGPL.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 17, 2013 19:09 UTC (Wed) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

There's an easy answer to these sorts of questions - be generous. You only need to know exactly where the line is if you're going to insist on getting absolutely as close to it as possible. So don't do that. Do you need to publish a one line patch? Who cares - do it anyway. Config file? Example configs are good - publish it.

You might wind up being a decent sharing member of the community slightly more than the licence and the force of law make you, but that is not something to be afraid of.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 7:25 UTC (Thu) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

You're saying the choice is to publish every little thing or live in fear of being blindsided by AGPL complaints?

No wonder the AGPL has such a poor reputation!

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 13:08 UTC (Thu) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

No, I'm saying be nice, and don't worry.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 16:30 UTC (Thu) by jwarnica (subscriber, #27492) [Link]

"Be nice and don't worry" is hardly a strategy that any lawyer or executive would sign off on.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 20:13 UTC (Thu) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link]

It's the very long standing business strategy of the "baker's dozen" - don't just aim to comply, comply with enough of a safety margin to be sure you've complied, and been seen to comply.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 20:19 UTC (Thu) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

Or don't do it at all and be even more safe. Which is the strategy that many take because it has a lower internal cost. That is the cost AGPL has to beat.. making the cost of sharing lower than the cost of not using the software in the first place.

Cost of complying with AGPL conditions

Posted Apr 19, 2013 16:00 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link]

Or don't do it at all and be even more safe. Which is the strategy that many take because it has a lower internal cost. That is the cost AGPL has to beat.. making the cost of sharing lower than the cost of not using the software in the first place.

Well said. But contrary to the connotation of the phrase "publish every little thing," the cost of using code under AGPL seems to be tiny, with the chance of being "blindsided" negligible. It's not like someone is going to run you out of business because you forgot to publish a 1-line patch. What's going to happen is someone will say, "hey, you forgot to publish that 1-line patch," and you'll say, "I didn't forget; I didn't think it was part of the source code that is supposed to be available. But since you asked, here it is."

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 17, 2013 19:32 UTC (Wed) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link]

That's not particularly true. Let's say that I write a web service that incorporates some form of crypto and license it under the AGPL. You want to use one of the crypto routines in a TLS implementation. Can you actually find a way to satisfy the offer-of-source requirement inside the TLS protocol?

If this were the GPL, those sorts of questions would be quickly dismissed because people use it and there's a standard interpretation of it. But given how little the AGPL is getting used, there isn't a standard interpretation of how to "prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your version". If I connect to your server with openssl s_client, can I claim a license violation because nothing in s_client's output can "prominently offer" me source?

And, of course, why hasn't GNU themselves relicensed GNUTLS (and everything else they write) under the AGPL?

So, for now, as a developer I'm staying away from AGPL code, because a lot of what I interact with tends to be low-level stuff where compliance really isn't clear.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 23, 2013 12:04 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

And, of course, why hasn't GNU themselves relicensed GNUTLS (and everything else they write) under the AGPL?
If you can't figure out the reason why things like glibc are licensed under the LGPL instead, you're not thinking at all.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 25, 2013 13:36 UTC (Thu) by belorn (guest, #90600) [Link]

It helps when discussing licensees if each participant has read the license they are critiquing. The question about an AGPL TLS protocol implementation shows a complete lack of understand in how AGPL works. AGPL clause only requirement is that the user do not remove existing features that prints its own source code. Thus the way to satisfy the offer-of-source is simple: do not remove any existing features that prints the programs own source code, and keep the data archive updated of said features if you do changes to the program. Nothing more, nothing less.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 25, 2013 17:08 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

That's TOTALLY wrong and misleading.

AGPL is as viral as GPL, it simply states that using AGPL code to provide services is equivalent to distribution in consequences.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 10:39 UTC (Thu) by miahfost (subscriber, #51602) [Link]

One concern, at least in the automotive world, with GPL v3 is that you cannot lock the resulting image with an encryption key without violating the GPL v3. This has lead car companies to prohibit GPL v3 licensed software.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 25, 2013 13:42 UTC (Thu) by belorn (guest, #90600) [Link]

GPL v3 do not prevent the use of encryption, only lock-down of devices where the producer has the key and the consumer who bought the device do not. Car manufacturers can use GPLv3 as it was GPLv2 if they either: A) give the key to the consumer, or B) do not reserve a copy of the key for themselves.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 25, 2013 14:07 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

Or, more appropriately, provide a function for the key to be changed or removed and user-provided software to be loaded.

end of the patent war predicted in 2-4 years; what, how?

Posted Apr 17, 2013 15:48 UTC (Wed) by mlinksva (subscriber, #38268) [Link]

> the end of the patent war—which Eben predicts will occur two to four years from now

Did he say how he expected this end to come about in the next two to four years and say what would constitute "the end"?

end of the patent war predicted in 2-4 years; what, how?

Posted Apr 17, 2013 18:18 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Global Thermonuclear War?

I don't see anything happening to patent laws in the US that fast.

end of the patent war predicted in 2-4 years; what, how?

Posted Apr 18, 2013 13:55 UTC (Thu) by rriggs (subscriber, #11598) [Link]

How about a nice game of chess?

end of the patent war predicted in 2-4 years; what, how?

Posted Apr 18, 2013 15:09 UTC (Thu) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link]

What exactly is nice about checkmating an opponent?

end of the patent war predicted in 2-4 years; what, how?

Posted Apr 18, 2013 16:25 UTC (Thu) by etienne (subscriber, #25256) [Link]

> > > Global Thermonuclear War?
> > How about a nice game of chess?
> What exactly is nice about checkmating an opponent?

I think it was a reference to the film "War Games"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames

(for younger people around here...)

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 17, 2013 16:08 UTC (Wed) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

I find it hard to be as enthusiastic about Android as this article suggests that we should.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 7:32 UTC (Thu) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

True. Besides, Android has gone to great lengths to avoid the GPL (probably sensible given GPL3's uncertainty and fragmentation).

It's a little odd to hear Eben counting this among things that are going as planned.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 9:08 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

It didn't "went as planned": war for the FOSS on mobile went badly and was almost lost till Google decided (for one reason or another) to win it with FOSS Android. This is not the outcome everyone expected at the time -all the nimerous FOSS mobile projects (GPE, OPIE, Symbian (which was "almost-but-not-quite" opened up before it's death), webOS, etc) were pushed to the side, but it does not change the fact that war for the FOSS on mobile was won as a result.

"believes the copyright trolling problem will be solved"

Posted Apr 17, 2013 21:02 UTC (Wed) by mlinksva (subscriber, #38268) [Link]

Like prediction about end to patent war (comment above), I'm curious about the theory here. How? What would it look like? Who are the trolls even ... proprietary relicensors?

"believes the copyright trolling problem will be solved"

Posted Apr 18, 2013 1:21 UTC (Thu) by yodermk (subscriber, #3803) [Link]

I suspect Congress will finally get a bit of a clue (after a lot of pressure) and finally do *something* to stave off at least the worst of the problem. I don't expect a complete solution but with some common sense steps they can make things better, and it seems like the pressure will eventually make them do that.

"believes the copyright trolling problem will be solved"

Posted Apr 19, 2013 8:34 UTC (Fri) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link]

> Like prediction about end to patent war (comment above), I'm curious about the theory here. How?

I gather that the suggestion is that the players will simply run out of ammunition:

"We're at the mid-point of the patent war over mobile, Eben said. The "cloud services ammunition dumps [patents] will begin to go up in flames" about a year and a half from now. Those "ammunition dumps" are the last ones that have not yet been exploited in the patent wars; they're going to be exploited, he said."

...and we'll remain just like our mammal ancestors wandering among the ashes in the suddenly dinosaur-less world...

;)

Abot AGPL

Posted Apr 18, 2013 17:06 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Here's my true story about AGPL.

We installed a nice AGPL issue tracking system (written in Python) when we were a small company. All was nice, it worked correctly and providing a link to its source code was not a problem.

However, we later got acquired by a large company. And some time later we needed to integrate with their internal CRM and asset tracking system, they are written in Python as well. So it should be easy enough - just link in the required modules, right?

However, linking even a couple of modules from an internal system would force us to open source of ALL of the internal systems. Or so our lawyers told us. BTW, when they found out that we are using AGPL they went ballistic and immediately sent people to physically remove our server from the premises.

Was it all corporate paranoia? I don't think so, given that AGPL can be interpreted very widely and there are no real precedents so far.

Abot AGPL

Posted Apr 18, 2013 19:01 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

Was this issue tracking system accessible outside your company?

Abot AGPL

Posted Apr 18, 2013 19:09 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Yes, it was. We've solved the problem by buying a commercial version of that system.

About AGPL

Posted Apr 19, 2013 16:26 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link]

linking even a couple of modules from an internal system would force us to open source ALL of the internal systems.

I hate this terminology, even though I know it's common to talk about being "forced" by the offer of a license to publish source code.

It's like saying, "If I visit my mother on Friday, I'll be forced to take a day off of work." Forcing is what happens when you have no alternatives, as in "If my mother shows up on Friday, I'll be forced to take a day off of work (to entertain her)", not when you've chosen an alternative.

I would say, "in order to link even a couple of modules from an internal system, we would have to open source ALL of the internal systems."

About AGPL

Posted Apr 19, 2013 21:57 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> I hate this terminology, even though I know it's common to talk about being "forced" by the offer of a license to publish source code.
Why? It's exactly what it says.

About AGPL

Posted Apr 19, 2013 22:28 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

If you *choose* to use a software component under that license, you have to comply with the requirements of the license but noone is forcing you to use that software component under that particular license in the first place. So the use of the word "force" is at best, misleading.

About AGPL

Posted Apr 19, 2013 22:30 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

I think I stated pretty clear that if one chooses to link in AGPL app then they are _forced_ to open source the rest of their system.

What exactly is incorrect?

About AGPL

Posted Apr 19, 2013 22:35 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

It is misleading since you are allowed to link proprietary applications with AGPL applications just fine. The requirements only kick in when you run the combinations as a public service.

About AGPL

Posted Apr 19, 2013 23:47 UTC (Fri) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

No, they are *not* forced to open the rest of their system. They retain the option of ceasing their use of the AGPL code when confronted with their violation of the license (assuming such a violation exists). If that option is not comfortable to them, then it is their own comfort that might force the release of code, but it is not the AGPL.

About AGPL

Posted Apr 20, 2013 16:44 UTC (Sat) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link]

They retain the option of ceasing their use of the AGPL code when confronted with their violation [of the copyright].

At least in theory, they don't have that option, after they have used (copied) the code. They could, at that point, also have to pay damages for the copyright they have already usurped as well as possibly go to jail for willfully copying without permission.

The option I was referring to in saying that "forced" is an awkward word to use here is the option of not using the code/license linked with proprietary code in the first place. It's just not a proper use of "force" to use it for the known cost of a choice you're presently evaluating.

And the reason I bring it up is that this wording contributes to a common confusion people have about how GPL and copyright law work. Some people believe it works like this: you copy code, then the author makes you release your source code. In reality, it's the other way around: you release your source, then the author gives you permission to copy the code.

That may seem like an academic difference, but it makes a practical difference in the outcome of a lawsuit. If Harald Welte wins a lawsuit against you for using his code in your router and not publishing your driver source code, the court will not order you to divulge the driver source. Rather, the court will order you to pay Harald for the copyright of which you deprived him, and not to copy his code anymore. That's because the violation isn't that you didn't publish your driver source; it's that you did use Harald's code.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 18, 2013 19:05 UTC (Thu) by nevyn (subscriber, #33129) [Link]

> Eben then turned a discussion of copyleft licenses, focusing on the decline in their use

Yes, that's a complete mystery.

I mean I've seen a bunch of software where the developers released a "new and improved" version, which was completely incompatible with the old version and a bunch of people didn't think it was that improved. In those cases some people just kept using the old version and some migrated to completely different things (which were equally incompatible, so the costs were the same).

It's all very very mysterious.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 19, 2013 14:34 UTC (Fri) by jackb (subscriber, #41909) [Link]

There are other reasons that we are about to have too little copyleft, Eben said. Simon Phipps is right that young developers are losing faith in licensing, he said. Those developers are coming to the conclusion that permission culture is not worth worrying about and that licenses are a small problem.

Copyright is a dying paradigm that young developers are correct to not waste too of their attention worrying about.

It's a generational difference - it's simply not going to be socially acceptable to punish people for copying much longer, in the same way that other archaic institutions like arranged marriages are no longer socially acceptable.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 19, 2013 18:25 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

It is irresponsible to claim that any software is under a free and open source license unless you make it legally feasible for other people to use your work under such a license. If you don't care, *nobody* else can ever legally distribute your work at all. Adding a permissive license like 2-clause BSD license or even Apache and adding a note to your README takes maybe two minutes. Just do that.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 23, 2013 12:26 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I think jackb's point is that that attitude itself is changing. In the generation below my own, the vast majority of people consider copyright to be an unjust means by which the rich exploit everyone else, and not something they should go near themselves: after all, whether they obey others' licenses or not they have roughly the same chance of being attacked for it. Copyright is now considered to be a thing which very rich people use to try to extort money from you; a thing which everyone breaks routinely, without intending to, dozens of times a day. Is it a surprise that nobody in that age bracket wants to get involved in anything associated with such a quagmire, from any direction? Would *you* have wanted to get involved in it if your first experience of it was megacorporations issuing takedown notices for stuff you uploaded to YouTube with a radio playing in the background, or suing your friends for insane sums for some utterly trivial transgression like listening to a five-minute-long song in the *wrong format* (on your computer rather than over the radio)?

They end up considering copyright law contemptible, incomprehensible, ignorable -- and risky and downright scary. I have talked to a good few people who refuse to use copyright licenses because they think that using *any* license means some megacorporation might try to sue them for it -- and I can't say their fears are unjustified, since those megacorporations have tried to sue them for every other reason they can think of even tangentially relating to copyright. Hell, they send takedown notices for birdsong: who's to say they won't start threatening people for putting up source code with a copyright notice on it next? Sure, it makes no legal sense, but a lot of the things they've done already make no legal sense, and non-lawyers can't tell what makes legal sense anyway. All they know is that copyright is used to threaten them a lot.

The sue-the-pants-off-everyone copyright moguls' ethical bankruptcy has, as long predicted, infected the entire body of law they are using, which is now widely disrespected and ignored. This is probably not to the benefit of those of us who are using copyright as something more than an extortion scheme for overprivileged middlemen, but it is a social fact. In time, the law will probably catch up with the general population (in a few decades once the generation with those beliefs are in power), and then they'll have to find some way other than copyright to compensate people for creating useful works.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 23, 2013 14:20 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

If you want to change the copyright system, that is a political process. How does unlicensed code help anyone? I just don't get it.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 23, 2013 15:02 UTC (Tue) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Rejecting the systems that the establishment has constructed or permitted to be constructed is a political act. A law may fall into disuse due to the physical impracticality or political infeasibility of its enforcement without ever being formally repealed, and levels of nonparticipation and civil disobedience are a factor in determining the political (in)feasibility of enforcing a given law.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 23, 2013 15:32 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

What you are talking about might be a long term goal but in the meantime, all the code that is unlicensed is effectively unusable by say Linux distributions that cannot afford to ignore the law. So you are inflicting damage on the very people who might agree with you. When RMS wanted to make a political statement, he created GPL. Creative Commons has public domain dedication and CC-BY-SA for content. Permissive license are also political statements by themselves. Use those tools.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted May 10, 2013 14:01 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

They don't want to change the copyright system. They're not influential politicians or CEOs so have no hope of doing that. They're scared by it and just want to leave the whole sorry mess well alone.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 23, 2013 15:25 UTC (Tue) by apoelstra (subscriber, #75205) [Link]

I'm a member of that generation and I tag everything I publish with the CC0 license, more as a political statement than anything else. (As you say, we don't respect or observe copyright law anyway.)

But publishing unlicensed code (a) makes no such statement and (b) prevents anyone concerned with legality from using the code.

I certainly understand the "avoid the quagmire completely" attitude, but thanks to the Berne Convention you can't avoid it no matter what you do. Probably anyone you see publishing unlicensed code is just uninformed.

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 24, 2013 9:06 UTC (Wed) by etienne (subscriber, #25256) [Link]

> it's simply not going to be socially acceptable to punish people for copying much longer

Soon, it will be acceptable to copy banknotes, winning lottery tickets and bus/train/plane tickets?

Current challenges in the free software ecosystem

Posted Apr 24, 2013 13:54 UTC (Wed) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> Soon, it will be acceptable to copy banknotes, winning lottery tickets and bus/train/plane tickets?

I'm not sure about bus/train tickets, but plane tickets can already be copied in most cases without ill effect. They even let you print them out yourself on your own PC. The ticket authorizes a specific person for a specific flight, so extra copies do nothing but protect against accidental loss or damage to the original. Bus and train tickets could certainly work the same way, if they don't already.

A banknote, at least in theory, is a promise from the bank to pay a certain amount to the bearer. Passing off counterfeit banknotes as real ones is fraud--claiming that the bank made a promise which is never did--and unrelated to copyright. Copying the appearance of a banknote, by itself, is not an issue provided you make it clear that what you have is a copy and not something issued by the bank. Lottery tickets are a similar case.

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