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Was firing an over-reaction?Was firing an over-reaction?Posted Mar 22, 2013 17:19 UTC (Fri) by smurf (subscriber, #17840)In reply to: Was firing an over-reaction? by bkuhn Parent article: Blum: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost
The point is, she didn't "stand up". She took a picture without asking and then posted it, intending to harm the reputation of the guys in question.
"Standing up" would mean to turn around and tell them to stop the sexist offal they've been spouting. (How loudly to do that would be entirely her choice.)
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Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 22, 2013 17:57 UTC (Fri) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] "Standing up" would mean to turn around and tell them to stop the sexist offal they've been spouting.There's no proof that they actually said anything sexist. A dirty joke isn't sexist by itself
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 23, 2013 4:02 UTC (Sat) by sjj (subscriber, #2020) [Link]
I'm not sure what linking to your own comment is supposed to prove or demonstrate.
Dirty jokes and sexualized language in general make people uncomfortable in a work environment because they don't belong there. Simple as that. Work is for work stuff. There is no freedom of speech issue at all in not behaving like a dick at work. If your coworkers are not comfortable talking with you, do you think you're going to be productive?
Yeah, people's comfort levels with jokes, "jokes", etc are different. If somebody is offended, there's a good chance it's because they honestly are. A woman who complains about sexist remarks in a male dominated workplace needs to be taken seriously because just the act of complaining is a big step - you're sticking your neck out on a delicate subject.
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 23, 2013 5:08 UTC (Sat) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]
How does your comment relate to anything you were replying to? I didn't say that telling dirty jokes at work is appropriate. I didn't say that women complaining about sexism should be ignored. I merely said that to date there's no indication that those two guys said anything sexist and linked to my own comment detailing that point further. Actually it's pretty sad I even have to explain this.
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 24, 2013 8:05 UTC (Sun) by sjj (subscriber, #2020) [Link]
Sorry I was unclear. What I was trying to get at before going on tangent is that trying to separate "sexism" and "dirty jokes" in this context is meaningless. Both use sexual language that in a professional conference would sound the same.
I cannot change what some guy in the next row *thinks* (if he's sexist, racist, whatever), but I have the right to ask them to keep that shit in their heads without blurting it out for all around to hear in a public space.
Make sense?
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 24, 2013 12:42 UTC (Sun) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]
> Sorry I was unclear. What I was trying to get at before going on tangent is that trying to separate "sexism" and "dirty jokes" in this context is meaningless. Both use sexual language that in a professional conference would sound the same.
No, it's not meaningless and no, sexism doesn't necessarily involve sexual language. Which is exactly the point I made in that other comment I had linked to.
Oh, and by the way, I don't consider puns about "big dongles" to be a big deal. It's more like picking one's nose: sure, you don't do it in public, but when it happens, why make a lot of fuss about it?
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 24, 2013 23:05 UTC (Sun) by sjj (subscriber, #2020) [Link]
You are arguing by assertion - why do you think it's a meaningful distiction in this case?
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 25, 2013 0:26 UTC (Mon) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]
The culprits are being (probably falsely) accused of sexism, and whether they're guilty of that very much depends on what sexism is. So how is the distinction between sexism and obscenity *not* meaningful here?
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 25, 2013 0:51 UTC (Mon) by sjj (subscriber, #2020) [Link]
They were not accused of sexism, they were accused of behaving in an inappropriate way. Both sexist and obscene talk are inappropriate in that situation, so I still don't see your point.
Hint: they are not being accused of *being* sexist, they are being accused of *behaving in a sexist way*. It's not about what people think, it's about what they do. This matters in a public setting exactly because the two would sound the same. If you don't want people around you to think you're sexist or racist etc, don't say things sound racist or sexist. How are the people in the next row who don't know you supposed to tell the difference and just think "oh he's a nice guy, he didn't mean it, it's just a joke"?
Society/community/organization cannot police what people think, but they can police what they do.
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 25, 2013 2:37 UTC (Mon) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] This matters in a public setting exactly because the two would sound the same.Here's an example: All women are stupidis sexist, but not obscene. I have a really big dongis obscene, but not sexist. So no, they don't sound the same at all. Stop saying that because it's bollocks.
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 25, 2013 3:37 UTC (Mon) by sjj (subscriber, #2020) [Link]
Sigh. Yeah, so what? Both are INAPPROPRIATE behavior in this context. So is smoking weed in a presentation and heckling a female presenter: http://term.ie/blog/how-to-get-banned-from-pycon/
Again, inappropriate behavior is the problem. There's no need to lawyer around which exact bin it belongs to.
I'm so out of this thread.
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 25, 2013 8:20 UTC (Mon) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]
> I'm so out of this thread.
... but apparently only as long as you have the last post in every sub-thread.
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 25, 2013 10:30 UTC (Mon) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]
By that logic, running a red light is the same as shooting someone because they're both forbidden by law. Of course, someone as unable to make distinctions as you will fail to see why that is a problem.
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 25, 2013 0:32 UTC (Mon) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]
OK, I think I understand now. You seem to consider obscenity to be just as condemnable as sexism. I don't, so that's probably why we were talking past each other.
Was firing an over-reaction? Posted Mar 24, 2013 10:12 UTC (Sun) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link]
+1
Very well put.
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