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Distribution quote of the weekDistribution quote of the weekPosted Mar 18, 2013 11:33 UTC (Mon) by dgm (subscriber, #49227)In reply to: Distribution quote of the week by Rudd-O Parent article: Distribution quote of the week
You somehow managed to get it wrong in all accounts. Congratulations.
> so many techies in that thread condescending ... And these are people that influence the UI's direction!
Really? I thought Mairin was the one actually influencing UI's direction.
> "fuck you got mine" attitude that kept desktop Linux dead
"fuck you got mine" is the universal attitude. Most people download Linux for free and never, ever, give something back. It doesn't keep anything dead, though, because it's the expected behavior. It's the extremely *rare* few with a "this can be done better" attitude that keep the show going.
> Android finally delivered on the promise of hundreds of millions of Linux installs.
Show me just *one* non-technical user who has installed android on a phone that was running anything else. Got ahead, I'll wait here.
> I wonder why Android succeeded while these [expletive] in charge of the "Linux Desktop" never got their act together.
Maybe it's because Android is backed by a big corporation with capacity to talk directly and influence device vendors. Maybe it's because phone users do not have an expectation to run Windows applications and games on them. And maybe there a dozen more similar reasons...
> Do you think it might have something to do with the lack of "fuck you got mine" attitude from Android developers in charge of building the UI?
Definitely not. Because *most* people in charge of building anything do not have such attitude, specially those doing it for free, on their own time and often paying the expenses with their own money. Those people are most often doing a labor of _love_ and deserve all our respect and admiration.
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Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 18, 2013 20:55 UTC (Mon) by duffy (guest, #31787) [Link]
"Really? I thought Mairin was the one actually influencing UI's direction."
I try my very best along with the rest of the Fedora team, but nobody likes making decisions and implementing things that the community is against - community members obviously have a say and influence here and their opinion is extremely important. We don't exist without them. I'm just so very disappointed that some have this opinion, I'm not sure where it's coming from, although elsewhere in the same thread it's pointed out that high schoolers have no business using Linux - I mean, really? I started using Linux when I was in high school! Who is Linux for if it's not for normal folks who are just as deserving of software freedom as you or me, who is Linux for if it's not for high school students with extra time on their hands wanting to hack on things?
It really seems like a bizarre form of elitism and I really don't like it.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 18, 2013 21:45 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
If there was a +1 button on LWN, I would press it next to your comment ten thousand times.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 19, 2013 11:03 UTC (Tue) by ortalo (subscriber, #4654) [Link]
Nah nah. You should patch the button to implement a +10,000 button, then press it.
Note I would certainly i18n-ed it to +10 000 before pressing it myself too!
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 19, 2013 10:26 UTC (Tue) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
>> "Really? I thought Mairin was the one actually influencing UI's direction."
> I try my very best along with the rest of the Fedora team, but nobody likes making decisions and implementing things that the community is against - community members obviously have a say and influence here and their opinion is extremely important. We don't exist without them. I'm just so very disappointed that some have this opinion, I'm not sure where it's coming from,
So, are you telling me that you are NOT influencing the UI?
> although elsewhere in the same thread it's pointed out that high schoolers have no business using Linux - I mean, really?
I'm sorry to say that, but this is a blatant lie. I will quote here the relevant excerpt of the discussion, so people can make their own oppinion:
---
> It really seems like a bizarre form of elitism and I really don't like it.
Beware who you call an elitist. When you point a finger at someone, there are four fingers pointing at you.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 19, 2013 11:20 UTC (Tue) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] Saying someone is "the one influencing" a decision is not the same as saying they are influencing the decision. Disputing the validity of being called "the one influencing" the decision is not the same as denying influencing the decision.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 19, 2013 12:01 UTC (Tue) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
Isn't her *the* *one* with the greatest influence, by virtue of her job?
But, anyway, what I see is not a valid argument. First she claims that user's opinions are of the greatest value and influence. But on the next paragraph she uses dubious accusations of "elitism" to discredit someone that just had a different point of view.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 19, 2013 15:16 UTC (Tue) by duffy (guest, #31787) [Link]
"Isn't her *the* *one* with the greatest influence, by virtue of her job?"
The ultimate influence/power is held by those with commit privileges. Generally designers don't have this.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 19, 2013 15:01 UTC (Tue) by duffy (guest, #31787) [Link]
Yeah you missed this gem
"i wonder how i survived to learn all this stuff which
Essentially analogizing my students as less astute than trained monkeys.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 19, 2013 21:51 UTC (Tue) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
Maybe he was suggesting that YOU think that they are less astute than trained monkeys.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 19, 2013 23:42 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
There are lots of users who are not really familiar with such as a boot loader menu before they look into Linux. Comparing them to trained monkeys or implying that other people are doing so just for stating that a boot loader is confusing to such users isn't really defensible in any way. There are repeated comments like these that say people are stupid just because they don't understand or not interested in learning all the minutia of how things work under the hood and I find them entirely inappropriate.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 20, 2013 12:39 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
Allow me to disagree. There are few users so unfamiliar with anything as my 4 years old son. Yet our PC's boot menu has not represented a problem for him, or for my wife who is completely uninterested in technology. In fact, I have yet to find someone who is confused in the slightest by a boot menu.
But that's not the point. The point is that you cannot pretend to win an argument by playing the offended card. At most you will halt discussion and poison the relation with the community. That's too high price a price to pay for wining an on-line discussion.
People that are easily offended are as dangerous (if not more) to a healthy on-line community as people that are too prone to aggressive behavior. Note that I do not say "prone to offend", and that's for a reason: offensiveness is a relative personal interpretation. Anybody can choose to feel offended by anything, no matter how unreasonable may it seem.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 20, 2013 13:04 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] Unfortunately, I mostly associate utterances along the lines of "Anybody can choose to feel offended by anything" with the likes of Bernard Manning, Jim Davidson, and Jeremy Clarkson.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 20, 2013 17:33 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
Interesting. I associate it with people like Salman Rushdie or Galileo Galilei, instead.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 20, 2013 18:37 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
Being provocative is fine at times but just being rude doesn't make you Salman Rushdie. It makes you a jerk.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 21, 2013 17:41 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
Rude is a subjective quality, just like offensive or beautiful: Salman Rushdie is a jerk for quite a few people out there.
But that was not a good example, Rushdie was being *deliberately* provocative. That's not what I saw in the mail exchange. What I saw was someone choosing to ignore a valid point on the grounds that the messenger was offensive and elitist, a clear ad hominem fallacy even if it was true.
And that leads us to the crux of the matter. Was Malone rude and elitist, as purported by Duffy? The mails are out there for all to see and consider.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 21, 2013 17:49 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
Feel free to call it whatever you want but if you have a valid point, you are better off expressing it politely. Human nature being what it is, you are unlikely to convince someone else by comparing non technical users to monkeys.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 22, 2013 9:56 UTC (Fri) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] Absolutely.But that's not important here. Let me reuse your words and say that, Human nature being what it is, everybody can (and do) behave inappropriately eventually. We all have had a bad day. And if I have to deal with people because of my job, I have to understand that. Otherwise I'm behaving like a jerk too. Do two wrongs make a right? Curiously enough, I have just read about the "donglegate" thing that happened at PyCon. Those things should get us thinking about what's the correct behavior in those situations.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 22, 2013 14:10 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
For most people contributing to Fedora, it is *not* their job and this discussion has nothing to do with anyone having a bad day since such opinions have been expressed by the same people consistently. So your argument doesn't make much sense and I think you aren't aware of the history here.
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 19, 2013 15:05 UTC (Tue) by duffy (guest, #31787) [Link]
There's also a longer history of this anti students / anti girls in Fedora line of thought, e.g.:
http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/2011/01/fedora-from-bleeding...
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 19, 2013 16:21 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
In Fedora? In free software as a whole :((
Distribution quote of the week Posted Mar 20, 2013 9:32 UTC (Wed) by renox (subscriber, #23785) [Link]
Bah, it's easy to find dumb/sexist members in every big enough group of people.
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