LWN.net Logo

The first arm64 Debian image is available

From:  Wookey <wookey-Xpnwy/r4z8dg9hUCZPvPmw-AT-public.gmane.org>
To:  cross-distro-cunTk1MwBs8s++Sfvej+rw-AT-public.gmane.org, debian-arm-0aAXYlwwYIJuHlm7Suoebg-AT-public.gmane.org, linaro-dev-cunTk1MwBs8s++Sfvej+rw-AT-public.gmane.org, debian-devel-0aAXYlwwYIJuHlm7Suoebg-AT-public.gmane.org, ubuntu-devel-nLRlyDuq1AZFpShjVBNYrg-AT-public.gmane.org
Subject:  arm64 Debian/Ubuntu port image available
Date:  Wed, 27 Feb 2013 02:10:40 +0000
Message-ID:  <20130227021039.GN5031@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk>
Archive-link:  Article, Thread

State of the Debian/Ubuntu arm64 port
=====================================

*** Arm64 lives! ***

Executive summary
-----------------

 * There is now a bootable (raring) image to download and run
 * Everything has been rebuilt against glibc 2.17 so it works
 * A bit more work is needed to make the rootfs useable as a native buildd
 * Multiarch crossbuilding and the build-profile mechanism is mature enough to cross-build 
    a port from scratch (this is a big deal IMHO)
 * All packages, sources and tools are in a public repo and this work should be reproducible.
 * This image is fully multiarched so co-installing armhf for a
    64/32 mix should work nicely, as should multiarch crossbuilding to
    legacy x86 architectures. :-) (but I haven't tried that yet...)


 * Linaro wants 'the distros' to take this work forward from here so people interested in 
    Debian and Ubuntu on 64-bit arm hardware need to step up and help out.


Bootable images
---------------

A milestone was reached this week: Enough packages were built for arm64 to debootstrap an
image which booted to a prompt! After a bit of fettling (and switching to multistrap) I got
an image with all the packages configured which boots with upstart to a login prompt (I
admit, I did get quite excited about this, as it represents the coming together of nearly 3
years work on multiarch, crossbuilding, bootstrapping, cyclic dependencies and arm64 :-)

The images are available for download:   http://wiki.debian.org/Arm64Port#Pre-built_Rootfs
And there are destructions there for making your own.

All these packages were cross-built on raring, untangling cyclic dependencies with build
profiles (see wiki.debian.org/DebianBootstrap for how that works), making this the first
(non x86) self-bootstrapped debian port ever (so far as I know). All (?) previous ports have
been done using something else like OpenEmbedded (armel, armhf), RedHat/HardHat (arm, alpha,
mips), something IBMy (s390) to get an initial linux rootfs on which debian packages are
built. 

The new bootstrap process is (almost) just a list of sbuild commands. In practice there are
still a few rough edges around cross- build-dependencies so of the 140 packages needed for
the bootstrap, 9 had to be built manually with 'dpkg-buildpackage -aarm64 -d' (to skip
build-dep checks) instead of 'sbuild --host arm64 <package>'. 

The current bootstrap packageset status is here: 
  http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/raring-arm64/stat...

There is no armv8 (arm64/aarch64) hardware available yet, so this image can currently only
be run in a model. ARM provide a free-beer prorietary 'Foundation model' so we do have
someting to test with. It's sluggish but perfectly useable. Booting the images takes a
couple of minutes on my fairly average machine.

The images are using the Linaro OE release kernels which seem to work fine for this purpose.
Thanks to Marcin for modified bootloader lines in .axf files. 



Image status
------------

I was impressed that things basically 'just worked' on first boot. There is of course plenty
of breakage, I'm sure, and I haven't looked very hard yet, but it's a lot better than I
expected after months of just building stuff and testing nothing. (Things that are poorly:
nano can't parse it's own syntax-coluring files for example, and multiarch perl has the
wrong @INC path compiled in; I'm sure there is more). Consider this alpha-grade until it's
been used a bit more.

Things that are not yet built which would make the images a lot more useful are apt and a
dhcp client. apt needs gnupg needs curl needs nss. The nss cross-build needs fixing to
unbung that. A debian chroot without apt turns out to be disappointing quite quickly :-)
Expect an updated image with more packages very soon.


Multiarch crossbuilding
-----------------------

It's really nice to have building and crossbuilding using exactly the same mechanisms
and tools, with all files having one canonical location, and dependency mechanisms that
are reliable. The more I've used this, the more I've been impressed by it. There is
still work to do to expand the set of cross-buildable stuff, but it's a solid base to
work from. 

Getting this port working has been 'interesting' because it's attempting 4 new things all at
once: multiarch (file layouts and dependencies), crossbuilding (tools and packaging support
in a distro that historically was always natively built), arm64 (aarch64) support in
packages that need it, and build-profiles to linearise the build-order. 

The arm64 part of this is a relatively small part as the heavy lifting has been done
upstream (gcc, (e)glibc, binutils, kernel, libffi, autotools and a lot of minor fixes in
various packages). Thanks are due to doko (Matthias Klose) for sterling work getting all
that integrated into the debian and ubuntu toolchain packages, and infinity (Adam Conrad)
for merging various eglibc branches. There were also hordes of very boring patches of the
form 'update config.sub and guess before building'.

Most of the work has been in making things cross-build (exactly the same fixes needed for
armel/hf too so I've had plenty of help there from canonical types who want cross-building
for arm to work nicely), and particular thinks to Neil Williams for taking on the perl
cross-build challenge and creating the debian-perl-cross package to manage the
cross-configury, whilst also working with upstream to make the whole thing a bit less 1996. 

Multiarchifying has been going on nicely in libraries and -dev packages, but things like
perl and python needed significant work, along with a lot of boring bugs saying 'mark this
package MA: foreign' and 'build-dep on python:any or perl-base:any'. Thanks are due to doko
for the python multiarching and Niko Tyni for the perl multiarchification. Getting all 3
'aspects' of multiarch perl, cross-built perl and arm64 perl config to work at the same time
was quite hard work, and there are still bugs there. Wider usage of multiarched perl would
no doubt sort this out reasonably quickly. I started a wiki page to track the status of
multiarched cross-buildable perl: http://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/Perl . Help would be
welcome.

The build-profile work is described on the http://wiki.debian.org/DebianBootstrap page.
Progress has been greatly helped by GSOC projects last year, with good work on the tools
(crossbuild-essential packages, build-profile support) from P.J McDermott and an impressive
contribution from Johannes Schauer on dependency analysis tools around libdose, and apt
build-profile support.


All of this apart from multiarch perl, crossbuildable perl and build-profile stuff (and
a few pending patches) is already in raring.


Building stuff yourself
-----------------------

Setting up an arm64 build environment is very simple. Use sbuild-createchroot or mk-sbuild
and point at the bootstrap repo, with a bit of config and some updated tools packages from
the repo (amd64 only supplied). Details are given on
https://wiki.linaro.org/Platform/DevPlatform/CrossCompile...

Once you've created a tarball chroot builds are simply done with 
sbuild -c quantal-amd64-sbuild -d quantal --host=arm64 <package.dsc> or 
sbuild -c quantal-amd64-sbuild -d quantal --host=arm64 <package>_<version>  (I'd love it 
 if sbuild got smart enough to work out the version itself when given a distro - Roger
says he's working on it)

To deal with the chore of 'find version, run sbuild, sign result, upload to repo, import to
repo, deal with reprepro bitching if you re-upload the same version of something' for every
package build, I wrote 'dimstrap' which is a simple-minded tool to wrap that up and either do
one-off builds or run through a list. It is part of the xbuilder package here:
https://launchpad.net/~linaro-foundations/+archive/cross-... It also includes the
logfile-parsing script ('generate html') which generates the nice status pages:
http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/raring-arm64/stat... 


Image building
--------------

The config and instructions provided (in
http://wiki.debian.org/Arm64Port#Building_your_own_rootfs... ) is
for multistrap. Debootstrap sort-of produces working images too but
takes a lot longer to unpack/configure, and misses out various vital
packages (like libperl5.14). I'm sure it could be kicked into
submission. In theory multistrap (apt really) should have got all the
arch all packages from the main repo, but in practice it refused to do
that so I had to rebuild them or copy them over anyway (grumble). 

Any package that installs replaced conffiles seems to generate invalid
dpkg status entries (ifupdown did this to me). I've not got to the
bottom of that yet. Deleting the offending line gets you an image that
works. 

Issues
------

General:

The build-profile patches for dpkg and apt need to be pushed into the distro to make
that feature permanent. A thread on debian-devel is working on that
(http://debian.2.n7.nabble.com/Bootstrappable-Debian-propo...).
The main issue is what syntax to use '<>' or '[]' and how to deal with multiple overlapping
profiles. The patches to debian control cannot go in until at least the syntax is agreed and
the tools will parse them without barfing. Johannes ands I will send an updated spec
soonish. 

The missing piece of bootstrapping with regard to build-deps is packages that build-dep on
gcc-4.6 or binutils. When cross-building this should be satisfied by <triplet>-gcc-4.6 or
<triplet>-binutils. Nothing makes that happen currently. A scheme has been mooted but
nothing is implemented yet.

There is debate about whether cross-toolchains should build against multiarch libraries
(libgcc, libstdc++) like everything else, or have their own internal copies. Doko and I
disagree on this matter. That will need to be worked out at some point.

We won't get that much further with fixing cross- object-introspection, which is a
non-trivial job. 

Image-related:

The images do essentially work but very little has been tested so far. 

Multiarch perl still needs work.

nss needs cross-building in order to get apt cross-built

I've not got networking working yet. Info is here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM/AArch64/...
lack of a dhcp client in the image hasn't helped there. 


More info 
---------

The canonical arm64 port info page is: 
http://wiki.debian.org/Arm64Port

Full arm64 cross-build status (i.e everything that has been tried) is here:
http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/raring-arm64/stat...

All the patches generated so far are here:
http://people.debian.org/~wookey/bootstrap/patches/

(most that can, have been filed as bugs - there is a backlog of stuff
filed in Launchpad but not yet forwarded to the Debian BTS - yes I am
a bad boy - blame the fact that you can't use reportbug or bts from
inside ARM due to their idiotic email policies). 


Future work
-----------

Firstly we should say thank you to Linaro for sponsoring this work in various ways over
the last 3 years. We wouldn't be at this point now if it wasn't for that. However
Linaro has a lot of things to do and is trying hard not to do distro's work for them,
concentrating on upstream things. This makes sense for commercially-backed distros like
Red Hat and Ubuntu, but rather less for Debian where we _are_ the distro just as much
as anyone else is, and ultimately someone has to spend the time to get stuff working.

Anyway, I was supposed to stop work on this some time back, but have largely failed to
do so (cross-building is so moreish - there is always one more build to try before
bedtime!) and appreciate being given enough slack to get this to a point of actual
utility. However I expect to have much less time to spend on this from now on, except
insofar as it still co-oncides with things Linaro wants doing. I'd love to hear from
people who actually want to use this, to get more packages built, the Debian
cross-toolchains sorted, build-profiles finalised, and a whole pile of stuff fixed once
Wheezy is released. I'm pretty sure there are quite a lot of people who want multiarch
Debian or Ubuntu on their arm64 machines (or models). 

I hear rumours that actual hardware may appear sometime around the middle of the year
with some bagsied for Debian. Setting up the ports infrastructure for that would be
good. I don't know if anyone is interested in building slowly on models in the
meantime, or if we should just carry on crossing and see how far we get. This table
shows that 471 packages in raring can be expected to cross-build already:
http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/cross/armhf/raring/

Todo:

Fix up multiarch/cross perl
Fix nss
Build missing packages for apt
Build missing packages for build-essential
Build Debian cross-toolchain
Get all this working in unstable as well as raring
Setup buildds
Build all the other packages
Set up automated bootstraping runs (eventually) 


Current setup
-------------

Builds have all been run locally using the sbuild/chroot setup described above and on
the Arm64Port page, which should be easy for anyone to reproduce. The main irritation
is keeping up with raring: out of sync libraries are not MA-installable.  Logs are
uploaded to people.linaro.org (rsync). The reprepro repo is on people.debian.org
(dupload).  This stuff should probably move to ports.debian.org and ports.ubuntu.com,
but neither of those are set up for cross-building so I'm not quite sure how this will
work.

I could go on at great length about the machinery of profiled bootstrap builds, and
interactions between tools, but it's not very exciting, so will resist. Suffice it to
say that whilst it's all pretty slick I'd still like better buildd tools. 


Build-profile changes
---------------------

The build-profile patches are not yet upstreamable so are collecting in the repo. 
The patch set so far is here:
http://people.debian.org/~wookey/bootstrap/patches/profil...


Other thanks:
Other people who have helped make this happen in various ways but not got a mention above:
Colin Watson, Dmitry Ledkovs, Steve Langasek, Harry Leibel, Thibaut Girka, Roger Leigh,
Marcus Shawcroft, James Morrisey, Jonathan Austin, Steve McIntyre, Peter Pearse, Aurelien
Jarno, and whoever does sysadmin at people.{linaro,debian}.org

I hope I didn't forget anyone, or any important information.

Feedback from anyone attempting to get this working outside my computer is very
welcome. I have almost certainly forgotten to write down some things, and upload
correct versions of some other things. 


Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/


(Log in to post comments)

The first arm64 Debian image is available

Posted Feb 27, 2013 16:02 UTC (Wed) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

As clarified by wookey, this is work is on top of Ubuntu raring rather than Debian:

http://lists.debian.org/20130227133737.GO5031@stoneboat.a...

The first arm64 Debian image is available

Posted Feb 28, 2013 9:19 UTC (Thu) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link]

Is it because the work was easier to do with Ubuntu than with real Debian ?

The first arm64 Debian image is available

Posted Feb 28, 2013 10:10 UTC (Thu) by hrw (subscriber, #44826) [Link]

Debian is in freeze now due to Wheezy release preparation. That's why Ubuntu was used.

The first arm64 Debian image is available

Posted Feb 28, 2013 10:16 UTC (Thu) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link]

The more time passes, the more I find reasons testing freeze is itself a problem...

The first arm64 Debian image is available

Posted Feb 28, 2013 10:23 UTC (Thu) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Debian testing freeze wouldn't be so problematic if it was shorter. Wheezy's freeze has lasted eight months.

The first arm64 Debian image is available

Posted Mar 1, 2013 4:00 UTC (Fri) by ras (subscriber, #33059) [Link]

It needs to be 8 months. We have distributions that freeze for a shorter time - Fedora and Ubuntu, and I take the 8 or even 12 months over what they produce every time.

The problem is really that not on is testing frozen, it is that unstable gets locked down as well. Not officially, but that is what happens in practice. It seems like we should be able to fork testing into wheezy, and then let unstable / testing go on their merry way. However, I suspect freezing everything forces the DD's minds to focus on the task at hand - getting the next stable out the door. With that impetus 8 months might end up being short ....

The first arm64 Debian image is available

Posted Mar 1, 2013 9:01 UTC (Fri) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link]

> It needs to be 8 months

It needs more. It is 8 months at the moment, but it will probably be 15-16 months when Wheezy is released and sid is finally unfrozen.

I agree on the fact the freeze would not be a problem anymore if sid was not frozen.

The first arm64 Debian/Ubuntu image is available

Posted Feb 28, 2013 12:51 UTC (Thu) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link]

I would have preferred to do this in Debian, rather than Ubuntu, not least because doing it in Ubuntu means filing nearly every bug twice, which is a pile of time-wasting (check versions, make new patch, check it works, file bug) I could do without.

But Ubuntu has been more aggressive on getting multiarch and cross fixes in for some time now so was already a little ahead, and then nearly all of the recent intensive work co-incided with the Wheezy freeze where there was no chance of getting anything with any risk of disruption in.

From my (farily low-level) point of view Debian and Ubuntu are the same thing, and exactly where the patches get filed is not a big deal, but working as far upstream as possible is always preferred. Patches do get applied _much_ faster in Ubuntu (on average) (or at least multiarch, cross and arm64 patches do), which is very helpful.

On the other hand some things would have been easier in Debian (no need to get plymouth (and thus cairo and pango and libxcb1 and libthai libx11 and more $stuff) just to get a bootable system.

I am also artificially restricted by stupid email policy at ARM (where my main dev machine sits and thus all the patches end up) which prevents the use of reportbug or bts to file/control bugs from in there (every patch has to be scp-ed somewhere else and reportbug run on a machine where its automatic checks will get all the wrong answers and have to be overridden). So the web-based launchpad bug-tracker is rather more useful in such an environment (despite being annoying in other ways). If I had ended up working primarily on Debian I might have taken the bloody machine home just to get some work done.

I have of course, not helped the freeze at all by doing almost exactly no bugfixing, and just doing new stuff. So I can't really complain about it getting in the way.

All the new good multiarch-cross stuff applies to both distros in the same way and any differences (between raring and jessie, the next release) are probably bugs. The practical outcome of all this is that this stuff should work 'reasonably well' in raring, 'somewhat' in wheezy, and very well in raring+1 and jessie.

The first arm64 Debian/Ubuntu image is available

Posted Feb 28, 2013 13:32 UTC (Thu) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link]

Ah, thank you !

I didn't think of the freeze (that was also pointed above), I expected something like the "things move faster", and I had no idea the bts could have been such a problem, though I admit I refrained from filling bugs because many time because i find it a bit painful, which is maybe a net gain for the project.

Well that's probably a good thing there are distros so close technically but so different in schedule and in how they work so you could choose the easier one to work on at that moment.

(BTW... cairo, pango, libx11 for mere boot !)

The first arm64 Debian/Ubuntu image is available

Posted Feb 28, 2013 15:27 UTC (Thu) by carenas (subscriber, #46541) [Link]

slightly offtopic, but you know by any chance anyone that can provide one of those bloody machines for me to take home? ;)

The first arm64 Debian/Ubuntu image is available

Posted Feb 28, 2013 17:07 UTC (Thu) by hrw (subscriber, #44826) [Link]

Read article again.

There is no HW so far.

The first arm64 Debian/Ubuntu image is available

Posted Mar 1, 2013 17:19 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953) [Link]

Sounds like you should tell your employers at ARM that their policy is hindering development of Linux on ARM. If they aren't willing to make exceptions for the single largest OS using their chips then they have management issues.

The first arm64 Debian/Ubuntu image is available

Posted Mar 2, 2013 3:08 UTC (Sat) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link]

Don't worry. Bitching at IT for nonsensical policy that makes life difficult for Linux users and/or free software devs is a popular pastime here. But actually getting things changed in any reasonably-sized corporate is remarkably slow and difficult.

The first arm64 Debian/Ubuntu image is available

Posted Mar 2, 2013 14:50 UTC (Sat) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link]

Updated images now have working networking and apt so you can apt-get stuff (very slowly). And build-essential is now installable. Some perl issue is breaking dpkg-dev unpacking at the moment so I haven't yet managed to actually download and build a native package.

Copyright © 2013, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds