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Kroah-Hartman: AF_BUS, D-Bus, and the Linux kernelKroah-Hartman: AF_BUS, D-Bus, and the Linux kernelPosted Feb 19, 2013 19:25 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252)In reply to: Kroah-Hartman: AF_BUS, D-Bus, and the Linux kernel by mmarq Parent article: Kroah-Hartman: AF_BUS, D-Bus, and the Linux kernel
Well, PS IV is going to be HSA modeled... is not PowerPC, is x86 AMD, and Sony entered the HSA... Wow! Looks like SONY just can't ever produce nice, easy-to-program console. After Cell fiasco (which is theoretically so much more powerful then XBox's CPU but so hard to program that most PS3 game ports are inferior to XBox360) then decided to use of-the-shelf-hardware but now they want to still screw the developers in some other way? I wish them luck, they'll need it.
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Kroah-Hartman: AF_BUS, D-Bus, and the Linux kernel Posted Feb 19, 2013 22:50 UTC (Tue) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
Funny you say that, because Microsoft and Nintendo, decided exactly the same thing... so by your POV their are all up to screw the developers! lolzz...
Sony should not be about nice and easy to program... it would be nice for a change... but primarily Sonny i think is after "PERFORMANCE"(try to match both the why of HSA)
See!?... the reason is simple, many bickering in hardware/review sites... but its seems CLEAR that if you want performance, PERFORMANCE IS IN THE SOFTWARE... arguing this CPU and that processor is best than this or that, only controversy to entertain morons!... it is best but with what software ???
More!... according to a leak that circulates, the Durango GPGPU that goes for the Xbox720 is very unusual and seems a highly customized design... many still do laugh and foresee the doom of Xbox, but that is what Microsoft choose, perhaps fitting better their tools and their programming paradigms... since its clear PERFORMANCE IS IN THE SOFTWARE, its highly premature to judge anything only by the hardware features alone...
So your argument of "off-the shelf" is simple WRONG by many accounts... and you should applaud because gives the software side much more leverage.
But i understand your point about "off-the shelf", the "traditional" world of graphics and video is just too stupid to begin with... with super bloated Driver an VM JIT layers for the GLs of the GPGPUs -> crazy!, usually those Console guys **program much more to-the-GPGPU-metal** and are able to extract an **order of magnitude (10x) more performance** than in the "PC world"... Microsoft is in the same boat some how, Xbox and Microsoft will be around *compute* and C++AMP allover...
LINUX IS NOT ABOUT "COMPUTE POWER", AND POWERS SEEMS NOT WANTING IT TO BE... that is why client side "mass adoption" concerning (it has to do with graphics/video)... Microsoft will win for Linux in the foreseeable future, and history repeats itself... even when they F### up as they did with Windows 8...
Sounds crazy but its true... and there is where HSA foundation entered... the idea is exactly "facilitate" this, open it to general languages, and that is why it catched so many interest and is a "de-facto" and "de-jure" standard right now.
Kroah-Hartman: AF_BUS, D-Bus, and the Linux kernel Posted Feb 20, 2013 17:54 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] usually those Console guys **program much more to-the-GPGPU-metal** and are able to extract an **order of magnitude (10x) more performance** than in the "PC world" This one phrase says it all: bollocks. If you ever actually go and compare console versions of games and PC versions of the same you'll see that yes, they achive "10x more performance"... by replacing nice textures with tesselation and other niceties with blurry POS. Hardly an achievement worthy talking about. I think I'll side with viro: this is not a slashdot and since effective discussion with you is impossible I'll just use this nice LWN's feature and silence you in my stream. Have a nice day.
Kroah-Hartman: AF_BUS, D-Bus, and the Linux kernel Posted Feb 20, 2013 22:17 UTC (Wed) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
hey! the discussions is not me, don't try to make it personal.
I even can agree with some things you say, but everything must be in its proper context, and those are not fixed, they evolve tremendously...
Its not to hurt feelings, to make controversy... but the idea i trowed about forking the Linux Kernel... as exposed... perhaps are not off base.
And i'm not the right person to answer most things, i'm sure the HSA have ppl around here, they could answer erroneous ideas if they are "allowed"... perhaps in another thread...
Kroah-Hartman: AF_BUS, D-Bus, and the Linux kernel Posted Feb 21, 2013 8:11 UTC (Thu) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link]
If you compare equivalent hardware, yes, we do make way more use of the hardware in consoles than PCs. This is entirely because we are targeting a fixed hardware spec, though. PC versions can be better because you're comparing 2013 era PC hardware with 2006 era console hardware, which is why mmarq's argument is flawed even if he has a glimmer of insight in his rambling.
There was some AMD buffoon who clearly only knew consoles claiming that D3D12 would likely do away with most of the API since developers wanted to directly target the hardware. This is obviously impossible in a world with multiple GPU vendors, and even things like AMD replacing its machine code format in its own product line.
Also, we don't _want_ to do this direct hardware coding so much as we _have to_ to make sure the games we put out in 2012 looked better than our competitors' games in 2008 despite using the exact same hardware. We have to push micro-optimizations and tricks to improve performance because the hardware is locked in the stone age.
Consoles can be faster than an equivalent PC because we have no real OS and can micro-optimize in ways that PC/phone developers can't. This is not a good thing, for developers or users. Users want diversity and competition, and developers want easy APIs that make development cheap and efficient. Consoles do neither.
Meanwhile, real PCs can massively outperform consoles because for all the bloat, the hardware is massively more powerful, partly because many companies can compete to make the best hardware and users can and do upgrade at will. So mmarq's argument is just silly. Hardware does bring massive performance improvements, and software trickery is about making the most of limited hardware.
Kroah-Hartman: AF_BUS, D-Bus, and the Linux kernel Posted Feb 21, 2013 9:18 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] The only games which "make way more use of the hardware in consoles" are exclusives like Uncharted where you really can throw away all these HSA discussions and code to bare metal. Most cross-platform games (and very few games are exclusives nowadays) are better in XBox360 because it's hardware is closer to PC and usually you don't need 10x more powerful PC to beat the console game in quality (2x is more then enough) which implies that these "micro-optimizations and tricks" are not all that popular. They are used in some "computationally heavy" places (because otherwise game will just not work on console) but most of the time it's just plain simple reduction in quality (number and size of textures, etc) till you have the required FPS. And of course there are no HSA or "bare metal" access: it's OpenGL or Direct3D on consoles, too.
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