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Python trademark at risk in Europe
The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has announced that the trademark on "Python" is at risk in the European Union. A company called Veber has applied for a community trademark on Python "for all software, services, servers... pretty much anything having to do with a computer". The PSF is looking for help in opposing the application: "According to our London counsel, some of the best pieces of evidence we can submit to the European trademark office are official letters from well-known companies 'using PYTHON branded software in various member states of the EU' so that we can 'obtain independent witness statements from them attesting to the trade origin significance of the PYTHON mark in connection with the software and related goods/services.' We also need evidence of use throughout the EU." (Thanks to Ben Boeckel and Sebastian Pipping.)
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Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 15, 2013 14:42 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]
So here's the thing. Why not trademark every name you use in the first place? If you care about the trademark (like Mozilla), you'll be forced to defend it. If you don't and someone challenges it as generic (like aspirin), let it go - but then no one else can trademark it either. Why wouldn't that work?
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 15, 2013 15:55 UTC (Fri) by dmitrij.ledkov (subscriber, #63320) [Link]
Because one never knows if something that "is NOT portable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably never will support anything other than AT-harddisks" will become so big.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 15, 2013 15:58 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]
But that's why one should trademark it, right?
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 15, 2013 16:33 UTC (Fri) by farnz (guest, #17727) [Link] Registered trademarks aren't free - a UK trademark costs £200 (£170 if you're prepared to apply via the online forms) for your initial application in one class, and £200 for each renewal (every 10 years). Add an extra £50 to each fee if you want to hold the mark in multiple classes. It's generally more sensible to rely on unregistered trademarks - the fact of use of a trademark is enough to establish it such that you can either reclaim the trademark yourself if someone else applies and you think you can show you're using it (£200 fee), or have the IPO declare it a "generic" mark (£200 fee). You can also (£200 fee for this) have an existing trademark removed due to non-use. Basically, costs of registering your trademark for 10 years are about the same as stopping someone else from obtaining it or using it. You might as well wait until you need to claim it before you do so - it's similar cost, and that way, you're not out the price of a reasonable SSD every time you start a project.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 15, 2013 23:01 UTC (Fri) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]
The article states that opposing the trademark will cost them tens of thousands of dollars. Pretty sure that more than 200 pounds.. I know the dollar isn't quite what it used to be, but I don't think the exchange rate is that bad ;)
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 16, 2013 18:49 UTC (Sat) by farnz (guest, #17727) [Link] That's including the costs of retaining a good trademark lawyer, not just the fees from the IPO - they would pay a similar amount if they hired a trademark lawyer for the initial application.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 15, 2013 16:24 UTC (Fri) by endecotp (guest, #36428) [Link]
Because registering a trademark is not free-of-charge, and is non-trivial.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 15, 2013 23:30 UTC (Fri) by compudj (subscriber, #43335) [Link]
If you intend to create an open source project that could possibly be used across the globe, and if you wish to protect your trade mark by registering it, you will need to secure it on a per-territory basis. The WIPO Madrid system helps a lot in this matter nowadays, but US and EU only joined this system in 2003 and 2004, respectively. However, even today some countries require trade mark registration for their territory.
Therefore, it's not just a matter of a single 200 pounds for 10 years; you must multiply that by the number of independent territories on which you want to protect your trade mark. I expect that providing world-wide protection for a trade-mark was even most cumbersome than it is today when Python was created.
I'm only talking from my own experience, and I advise people to ask experts in that field if they need to secure a trade mark.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 17, 2013 1:53 UTC (Sun) by AngryChris (subscriber, #74783) [Link]
So what happens if this UK company is awarded the trademark? European developers can't use python anymore? What is the actual impact?
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 17, 2013 17:29 UTC (Sun) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]
Not being a lawyer and only describing my impressions from previous situations of this kind, the risk is that anyone offering products and services that involve and thus mention the Python programming language in their name might be told by the aspiring trademark holder to stop doing so, with the argument being that people might get confused between those products and the products of the aspiring trademark holder.
So, if I were running a company called "Paul's Python Hosting" or had a product of that name, even though everyone in the target audience for my product (and the majority of potential hosting customers) would realise that the product involves hosting for software and services written using the Python programming language, I might be told to lose the "Python" from the name because some people might mix it up with a particular company's products (that as far as I know are not even available yet and certainly haven't been available globally for over twenty years).
Being told not to use a name that is widely known and commonly associated with a specific technology when describing that technology would certainly be an injustice, although it obviously wouldn't stop people using the technology or even the name in many other contexts. However, I am reminded of the much more blatant injustice of the MobiliX case (http://tuxmobil.org/mobilix_asterix.htm) where a trademark holder was (and maybe still is) attempting to assert ownership of a class of names, not just one.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 18, 2013 16:06 UTC (Mon) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]
There's nothing to stop the trademark holder from asking you to stop using their trademark.
But they need to ask a court to force you. And these people would lose fair and square. All the Python people would need to do is produce a couple of documents from back in the day in 1995 or whenever, and the Judge would toss the trademark as invalid. Prior use trumps registration! Which is why, with all the software I've tried to start, I always stick a (TM) after the name. It's not a formal registration, but it's a stake in the ground making a claim. And that stake WILL void any formal claim made later by someone else.
The problem is (admittedly to a far lesser extent than in the US) that this whole mess causes uncertainty and expense. Legally, it's extremely clear cut. If Python was using that name before the trademark was registered, then it's up to the trademark holder to prove that they were using it earlier still.
I personally couldn't, but someone could set up a new burger bar called McDonalds and there's nothing the big burger chain could do about it - AS LONG AS the guy setting it up was called McDonald (and hadn't changed his name by deed poll, as this would be seen as an end-run round the rules).
Cheers,
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 22, 2013 13:28 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]
> Prior use trumps registration! [...] Legally, it's extremely clear cut.
I don't think so. According to http://www.wipo.int/madrid/en/faq/trademarks.html#P41_1812
> In countries which have a legal system based on common law, “prior use” is generally sufficient for claiming rights over a given trademark in case of dispute. In civil law countries, however, this is usually not the case.
Europe has many civil law countries.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 24, 2013 12:39 UTC (Sun) by Jandar (subscriber, #85683) [Link]
> Europe has many civil law countries.
I didn't research but hope civil law countries are in the majority. Judges making case law seems to be a major violation of the principle of separation of powers.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Feb 24, 2013 16:33 UTC (Sun) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] Civil law countries are the vast majority everywhere; only the UK and its former colonies use common law.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Mar 1, 2013 1:47 UTC (Fri) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]
Civil law was, I believe, invented by Napoleon. Hence its overwhelming use in Continental Europe and their colonies.
As for Common Law, it is NOT "Judges inventing case law". It comes from Englands "Courts of Equity" which, in turn, looks like it comes from the Judaic Judges. Read the Book of Judges, which describes Jewish life before their first King, Saul.
The Courts of Equity settled civil disputes between citizens. And before the reforms in Dickensian times (is it Great Expectations?), there was no case law - every dispute was settled "on the merits" based on the prejudices of the Judge and no reference (much) to anything else.
Statute law over-rides case law, in any case. And actually, there really is in law something called "time immemorial". It's the law as it was before the system of statute law was set up in 1200 and something (Magna Carta and all that). In other words, Common Law.
Like everything else, Common Law can be a good thing, or a bad thing. When you have sensible Judges able to use their discretion, it works well (like in the UK). When you have Judges hidebound by precedent and pretty much forbidden from using their judgement and common sense (like in the US) it's a mess.
From a common-law viewpoint, civil law looks an awful mess and I'm glad we don't have it ...
Cheers,
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Mar 1, 2013 7:56 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] Civil law was, I believe, invented by Napoleon. Civil law actually goes back to the Romans, plus medieval influences. Napoleon promulgated a set of laws called the Code Civil, which is generally seen as an embodiment of the ideas of civil law, but not as the origin of these ideas.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Mar 1, 2013 13:24 UTC (Fri) by Jonno (subscriber, #49613) [Link]
>Civil law actually goes back to the Romans
While what the Romans had is what eventually evolved into the modern civil law system, they lacked the primary feature of modern civil law: A single book (or otherwise well-defined collection of documents that can be re-published as a single book) that is "the law".
To my knowledge the first one of those was the Code Civil by Napoleon, marking it the first civil law system, as the term is understood today.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Mar 1, 2013 16:32 UTC (Fri) by jwakely (subscriber, #60262) [Link]
Didn't Byzantium have several well-defined collections of "the law"? Creating such collections was a bit of a hobby for some emperors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_law
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Mar 1, 2013 9:47 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] Bleak House, containing the equity (rather than common-law) case of Jarndyce v. Jarndyce.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Mar 1, 2013 18:09 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] As for Common Law, it is NOT "Judges inventing case law". It comes from Englands "Courts of Equity" which, in turn, looks like it comes from the Judaic Judges. Read the Book of Judges, which describes Jewish life before their first King, Saul.My understanding is that it derives from a system which predates the Norman Conquest, and is similar to systems known in Icelandic and other Scandinavian cultures. Pre-Christian, so highly unlikely to be related to anything in the Book of Judges.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Mar 1, 2013 19:11 UTC (Fri) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]
You do know that the Book of Judges is on the Old Testament, don't you? It is the seventh book on the Bible.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Mar 1, 2013 20:27 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] It seems exceedingly unlikely that anyone shared the contents of the Tanakh with the Germanic peoples in Scandinavia prior to the arrival of Christian proselytizers carrying Greek translations.
Python trademark at risk in Europe Posted Mar 1, 2013 21:14 UTC (Fri) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]
For the second time in a couple of days (that I am aware of) I made a fool out of myself, because I did not take the time to fully understand what I was responding to.
I apologize, especially to nix, but to other people on the thread too.
IOW, nix is absolutely right.
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