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LCA: The ways of WaylandLCA: The ways of WaylandPosted Feb 14, 2013 15:06 UTC (Thu) by Serge (guest, #84957)In reply to: LCA: The ways of Wayland by richmoore Parent article: LCA: The ways of Wayland
> people complaining about remote desktop support in wayland
I'm not really sure why people always talk about "network transparency" near wayland. I can understand that http://winswitch.org/ idea is fun. But I don't think that many people really depend on it being based on X11 rather than VNC/RDP/NX/SPICE/etc. Anyway, it can be implemented in wayland. Wayland compositor will have to include its own VNC-like server, but it's possible.
Wayland has another fundamental problem: to keep the protocol small it tends to implement everything in a single compositor application. No separate window managers, no custom dockbars, no tools to manage multiple monitors (xrandr), and obviously no small useful tools like x2x/xdotool/xautomation. Regular applications are only allowed to draw something or listen for input. Need something else — write/patch the compositor.
> As a developer who's worked on things that have to deal with X directly like taskbars and screenshot tools all I can say is bring on wayland! Wayland is immature right now, but the design is what we need.
Wayland does not support taskbars and has some troubles with screenshots by design. How are you going to port your tools to wayland? ;)
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LCA: The ways of Wayland Posted Feb 14, 2013 17:12 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]
> Wayland has another fundamental problem: to keep the protocol small it tends to implement everything in a single compositor application. No separate window managers, no custom dockbars, no tools to manage multiple monitors (xrandr), and obviously no small useful tools like x2x/xdotool/xautomation. Regular applications are only allowed to draw something or listen for input. Need something else — write/patch the compositor.
That's not different than today, the X window managers have to know all about multiple monitors, dockbars, etc. and a compositor has to receive all the window contents, compose them together then provide a full screen bitmap for final display which is also not substantially changing. I don't know where you get the idea that there won't be window managers in Wayland, window managers (plural) are the future of Wayland, they are just able to talk more directly with the graphics hardware for final output, since they are doing all of the work today anyway.
I have no idea what 'wayland' protocol you are talking about since it seems to have no relation to the actual Wayland project. You might be interested in watching some of the Wayland presentations at LCA to learn more info.
LCA: The ways of Wayland Posted Feb 14, 2013 17:48 UTC (Thu) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]
> Wayland has another fundamental problem: to keep the protocol small it tends to implement everything in a single compositor application.
Again, I think this needs debunking. For the desktop shell, the task launcher/clock/etc, screensaver/lock, screenshooter, etc, are all separate clients. They use private protocols which aren't available to other apps, but they are not one application.
LCA: The ways of Wayland Posted Feb 16, 2013 11:31 UTC (Sat) by Serge (guest, #84957) [Link]
> Again, I think this needs debunking. For the desktop shell, the task launcher/clock/etc, screensaver/lock, screenshooter, etc, are all separate clients. They use private protocols which aren't available to other apps, but they are not one application.
I guess I misunderstand something. Let's assume that I have just built and installed current (or stable?) version of Weston. Can I write a dockbar for that Weston, without rebuilding or patching it? Or at least something like fspanel? Can I write a Dwm-style tiling manager without rebuilding Weston? How?
LCA: The ways of Wayland Posted Feb 16, 2013 11:33 UTC (Sat) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]
Yes, by writing a shell plugin. With the stable plugin ABI.
LCA: The ways of Wayland Posted Feb 16, 2013 12:31 UTC (Sat) by Serge (guest, #84957) [Link]
> Yes, by writing a shell plugin. With the stable plugin ABI.
Looking through sources. Can't find a way to get list of all windows with their icons, titles and types (to know, what to show).
By the way, the stable plugin ABI is the one in weston/protocol/*.xml?
LCA: The ways of Wayland Posted Mar 11, 2013 14:22 UTC (Mon) by runeks (guest, #74789) [Link]
The protocol bits required to do this have recently been submitted by Scott Moreau to the mailing list.
http://www.mail-archive.com/wayland-devel@lists.freedeskt...
Wayland is still very much in development, so for some things you will have to write additional protocol (which really is very easy), which we start with keeping internal to Weston. Then we will have to evaluate further down the line, whether we should include this functionality in the core protocol.
Please come join us :)
LCA: The ways of Wayland Posted Mar 12, 2013 22:07 UTC (Tue) by Serge (guest, #84957) [Link]
> The protocol bits required to do this have recently been submitted by Scott Moreau to the mailing list.
After 5 years of development somebody have suggested the functionality that everyone in the world use every day, only after I yelled about that like crazy in comments. :-)
And by the way, those patches are changing the core wayland protocol and incompatible with all (few) existing compositors.
>>> Yes, by writing a shell plugin. With the stable plugin ABI.
> Wayland is still very much in development
So is it stable or very much in development? ;-)
Xorg is also in development, but it does not break compatibility and is not missing so obvious features.
> Please come join us :)
I just don't understand what's the point. (If) after 10-20 more years Wayland implement all the features, write all the standards of modern Xorg, will be as large as Xorg and will finally become usable. By that time people could be using special 6D-"displays" wired directly to the brain, and most of the Wayland protocol will be almost unused, as it is now for X11. What would you do then? Declare Wayland obsoleted and start working on another replacement from scratch again?
Wayland has lots of missing features. Its design makes writing dockbars impossible and window managers very hard (to create WM you have to either fork Weston or constantly support your WM within it). It requires heavy modifications to all the toolkits just in order to make things for Wayland look not worse then for Xorg. And all this for what sake?
Users will loose many X11-specific tools that were working before. Toolkit developers will have to do a lot of additional coding. Commercial software development companies will stop developing for Linux while "Linux community is deciding what it's going to use". That will throw linux 10-20 years back in commercial support. And who's going to win from that all? Is it just NIH for fun? Or is that some evil Microsoft plan of destroying Linux from within? ;-)
LCA: The ways of Wayland Posted Mar 16, 2013 8:47 UTC (Sat) by renox (subscriber, #23785) [Link]
> I just don't understand what's the point.
Given that Wayland has support from X developers, maybe you should ask them?
LCA: The ways of Wayland Posted Feb 14, 2013 20:09 UTC (Thu) by richmoore (subscriber, #53133) [Link]
>> No separate window managers
In KDE we will solve that by having our own compositor KWin, which also manages the windows.
>> As a developer who's worked on things that have to deal with X directly
> Wayland does not support taskbars and has some troubles with screenshots
Taskbars I haven't looked at yet, but it'll probably be a case of agreeing a protocol with kwin (and hopefully other compositors). For screenshots there's already a basic interface in weston that provides the basics, but it will need extending to cover the more complex facilities. As I said, it's a bit immature at the moment. The facilities required are actually pretty simple, so I don't see it being a problem.
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