Recent Features
| |||||||||||||
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and WaylandGräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and WaylandPosted Feb 14, 2013 3:18 UTC (Thu) by mmarq (guest, #2332)In reply to: Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland by dlang Parent article: Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland
oh! forgot ... setups that the developers end up breaking themselves with almost every new release...
I registered here more than 10 years ago... going trough all the pertinent forum archives i would only need 1 buck for every complain i find of ""my older setup this and that appear here or there and it did this and that and doesn't do anymore"" to be a millionaire...
(Log in to post comments)
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 14, 2013 17:39 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
With the single exception of the abomination which is XMMS, and Chrome (in which you can at least turn this behaviour off), my window decorations and wm shortcut keys have been completely consistent and almost unchanging since 1994, and I use them all the time. These things are wired into my brain. Break them, you break a two-decade-old working pattern.
Needless to say, I will never use a system which enforces client-side decorations. *Never*. No matter what its advantages, the disadvantages to my workflow would be catastrophic. A bit of theoretical flicker that I never saw even on the slowest machines I used in that period is just not worth it.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 15, 2013 16:15 UTC (Fri) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
CSD or SSD is orthogonal, who controls the code that leads to rendering controls the "look", and there could be only one renderer/compositor for both CSD or SSD, which in X is already "detached".
Of course many could hack around this, and allow any number of compositor/renderers for that "Publicity Prone CSD Idea"... as many could hack around almost anything... but why should any "desktop project" bother a tiny bit about it ? (let them do it, only don't maintain it, they should)
And this goes both sides, changes are you adopted a piece of tech that as example allows any number of "renderers" hardwired in code (wayland)... hey! but you can also hack around(or off) this, if its OUTSIDE of what is "FOR ALL OF THE END USERS CONCERN" and "SHOULD BE ALLOWED"... "YOU DON'T FALL FOR MANTRAS" and damn sure hack them in their face(for not saying fork)...
Yes is important to maintain a "familiarity" legacy concern, that is IMO the MAJOR strength of Windoze, despite too much permissibility in certain areas for many tastes.
About the Wayland way, i think is not of concern for now, if DEVS ARE NOT STUPID... the code is PRE-ALPHA STATE... when it will be REAL, i mean, *REAL* FULL feature set, and *REAL* production stable ready... it will take at least a couple of years more... and this without counting any "network" features, because if you count them (as is circulating a possibility, is not specified what shape format or protocol(s), only the possibility), then you can count at least the double (4 years).
I thing Collabora suspects this, and also its main devs, only i suspect they think they can accelerate the process tremendously... that is why the SUPER OVERHYPE, and HATRED FOR X that transpires( when there are more X systems than xorg).
But has with many projects in the past... they(wayland) have a couple of very good features "ON PAPER"... this things much much more usual than not tend to NOT live to full expectations and deliver the results everyone/most 'hype' expected.
I trace a parallel with "Reiser", very good FS indeed, but when the dust settled is now bench provable its not the best and or the fastest FS around(not even second)...
The same will happen to wayland... i'm affraid...
The only thing really disgustable, is that they don't seem to "ISSUE WARNINGS ABOUT PRODUCTION READINESS"... some comments of users already circulates of "can hardly wait for this"... this suckers end up installing it on their production systems, and crash and burn horribly, and then blame everybody except their stupid gullibility and the *buggy* they installed thinking it was "so cool"...
This is the kind of thing that helps nobody, not even Collabora, because those kind of "suckers", rarely if ever helps in debugging, more so because they tend to not have the minimal knowledge and or skills required even if they intent to do it(which is almost never, only complain)... disgusting...
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 15, 2013 18:11 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] HATRED FOR X that transpires( when there are more X systems than xorg)Er, yeah. A good few of the Wayland developers were working on X even back then. I suspect this collapses your argument. They hate the X server codebase because the X server codebase is hateful, not because they are irrational lunatics (except insofar as working on the X server codebase for so long has converted them into irrational lunatics, that is!)
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 18, 2013 22:55 UTC (Mon) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
You are missing the point
And every other X system around?... is the code base also "hateful"(many engines were and a couple still is proprietary.. i think..) ??... have Wayland developers worked on them all ??
It might be that the NICE "BUT OVERHYPED" features that Wayland intends to implement, where already implemented elsewhere... and if all of those X engines were still commercial and going well, wayland might find itself in software patent troubles...
hey!... perhaps that is *the* reason they want to finish it off... but i tend to believe is to catch the most installation base the fast as possible, irrespective of who might crash and burn miserably... DISGUSTING
http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html ... DISGUSTING of biased and "untrue"... sounds like HATRED...
This serves to show that there isn't only the Wayland way for possible similar features... the thing would be solved by "facilitating" the end user install the windowing system they like... it could be that the "same" window manager (like Kwin) could work with more than 1 windowing system...
If wayland will be such upper duper it will win without much effort... if not, just history repeating itself...
Forcing by "PROPAGANDA" is a way of windoze world... traditionally Linux has been about choice.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 18, 2013 23:41 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] If wayland will be such upper duper it will win without much effort... if not, just history repeating itself... It seems that the issue will sort itself out automatically over time since various important X developers also think Wayland is a good idea in principle. So far nobody is pushing Wayland down anyone's throat; chances are that Wayland winning out »without much effort« is exactly what is going to happen eventually.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 1:59 UTC (Wed) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
Eh!!!... and how do you change ~ 200.000 applications from any ties to X to be "tied" with Wayland ???...
As i said, X without network is not X ...
Wayland with X is just "another" X ...
Wayland is absolutely a gargantuan enterprise... to change an enormous app base to its side...
And that is anther disgusting aspect... they don't seem to care at all... its about at least catch a good desktop environment and put everybody in there targeting Wayland... ITS NICE... and fits the ideas of Android of online AppStore... that is the motive of Wayland and why they choose to be a clear departure... a break away -> PUT EVERYONE CODING TO ULTRA-MOBILE...
But i don't know how much more **MIOPIC** that vision can be... there is already X for mobile... and even this WILL BE NOT NEEDED...
4G networks... the norm now can go 100Mbit/s... ARM(the leader) has already launched ARMv8 64bit... in 2 years all superphones(and so tablets even better) will be 64bit, with FullDH screens, which some already present... ARMv57 is 5X more performant than ARMv15 by reference design(and more power efficient), some variants like Qualcomm Snapdragon or Samsung Exynos can push that even further...
Conclusion even a superphone in 2 years will have the same processing power of actual many even top AMD or Intel i7 desktop offerings... and GPGPUs capable of of considerable compute power, and more powerful than the actual current PCIe adapters used in mainstream( not talking the top lines here)... more so because AMD/ATI is also in the ARM boat(-> they have a license to ALL ARMv8 64 bit including big.LITTLE)... nVidia also, so the battle will resume...
The only problem is that the RESOLUTION can be the same, but the "SCREENS" tend to be much smaller... but in here i think Plasma Active could do a good job adapt... and then you can run an even "heavier" KDE (or Gnome) than you do now on the current desktops, without any problems at all (AT ALL)(more so flash 128Gbit is on the corner, 2 of those and a Superphone could have a "disk" with 64GB (yes GB) of space-> how much is FULL KDE ??)...
Wayland its better!?... ok i'm always for better, since it doesn't break existent stuff... but FOR MOBILE YOU DON'T NEED WAYLAND AT ALL... CONCERNS MIGHT BE FOR CURRENT MOBILE GPUS AND ARMv9... BUT THOSE WILL BE *UBER COMPLETELY OBSOLETED* MUCH FASTER THAN WAYLAND WILL TAKE TO BUILD...
If adapting for those small screens is a concern also, then much better would be to make Plasma Active around SVG... gazillion better for the looks of tiny things... and the windowing system is orthogonal in here...
Don't worry... HAVE VISION... don't know what some witchdoctors try to push, but the notion of ARM underpowered can only be laughable (BIG LOLzz)... YES MORE POWERFUL THAN SOME EVEN INTEL CURRENT i7 TOP DESKTOP VERSIONS... and next crop of GPGPUs in mobile could easily handle SVG allover, AND better(yes dare to say this) THAN the majority of current mainstream Desktops (remember AMD/ATI is on the boat now, nvidia tegra can't afford to make underpowered things anymore, PowerVR next GPUs are positioned to be 6x more powerful, ARM MALI T6## is about 5x more powerful)...
Why in the HELL anything that is in current Linux desktops, is in need to be adapted for Mobile (BIG ??)... if you are running absolutely *OBSOLETE* hardware then yes... but you can't expect to have success with those can you (example, the KDE tablets look very good, yet the hardware is already obsolete even before debut ARMv9!? -> crazy! ) ???
So to me what is missing is "COMPUTE POWER" and SVG (which could go hand in hand)... Wayland ?? ( doesn't solve anything just for starters...)
... step outside off the box they want to put you, smell the fresh air... you'll know its truth!!... how easy is to make things more powerful than with crap old x86, and how GPGPUs will be no more devices but POWERFUL PROCESSORS, MORE POWERFUL THAN CPUS (stay tunned for the next console games, their "seem" diminute specs, but how they can blow you away)
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 3:39 UTC (Wed) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
Ooops exageration! (well in reference design is, others may excel)
ARM-A57 is not 5x more powerfull than the A15... the 5x applies only for the top GPGPUs T6## compared with T5##...
Concerning 32 bit (which the A57 also does, very identical to x86_64 in this)
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=...
The A-57 is around 2.25X more powerful than the A9...
Hey!... i'm sure 64 bit and it could be at least 50% difference in favor A57 compared with A15 for the same code(which is quite remarkable) ... also the ARMv8 is a "clustered" architecture, meaning it will be possible to have more than 4 cores in a single chip... so it may end up being 5x (add more cores) lol...
See for yourself (correct me please)
Family of GPU roadmap "Mali-T6xx" made by ARM to support Google Nexus 10
PowerVR "Rogue" 100GFLOPS stand next to raise the graphics performance of the smartphone and tablet
C'mon KDE!... tablets with obsolete A9, and ridiculous GPU... is that why wayland is needed ??
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 7:30 UTC (Wed) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
The writing is on the wall!
Tegra 4 will also be 6x more performance(like PowerVR) on the GPGPU side than Tegra 3.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=...
From 12 ALUs to 72 ALUs... and the CPU side also will have more than double performance( it was if not wrong) 2 ARM A15 cores + 1 ARM A9 big.LITTLE. NOW its 4 A-57 cores + 1 A53 big.LITTLE... smaller process more efficient, and the A57 is more power efficient and the A15, and the A53 is *HALF* the power of A9, so it could be basically the same power envelope.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=...
KDE... that is a chip to should be on those tablets...
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 4:27 UTC (Wed) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
"" Eh!!!... and how do you change ~ 200.000 applications from any ties to X to be "tied" with Wayland ???...
As i said, X without network is not X ...
Wayland with X is just "another" X ...
Wayland is absolutely a gargantuan enterprise... to change an enormous app base to its side... ""
And i'm starting from the principle that indeed Wayland is better and faster than Xorg (and i say xorg so that you can think of "others" )... no problem at all with that...
The problem is that to support the *BIG LACKING* of every app being X, i'm afraid running an Xorg(or even other) server on top of a wayland server is going to make things slower than running that apps directly on even Xorg(nevermind others that most where already faster)...
This is almost a "blind" easy bet to do... that shadows all Wayland claims...
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 5:16 UTC (Wed) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]
You know, I'm not too fond of Wayland (and attitude re network transparency is a large part of it), but the only thing you are succeeding at is sounding like a kook. Talking to yourself, ALL CAPS all over the place, multiple exclamation signs, conspiracy theories... the only thing missing (AFAICS) is active sock-puppetry. Splashsnot is -> that way...
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 8:57 UTC (Wed) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
Hey!.. at least i got your attention, which his not bad.. or is it ?
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 9:35 UTC (Wed) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] Hey!.. at least i got your attention Yes, but not in a good way.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 12:52 UTC (Wed) by renox (subscriber, #23785) [Link]
For me, only this time: welcome to my filter list.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 22:37 UTC (Wed) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
Nice feature that filter button... but exactly as i expose just below, with proper training the scroll wheel can be as fast as the filter button...and you don't have to plug off the eyes the hears or the mouth...
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 21, 2013 11:17 UTC (Thu) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] The filter list is a good way of avoiding specific users who flood the comments to an article with humongous amounts of content-free stuff. I'd much rather not have to replace my mouse every two weeks because the scroll wheel is worn out.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 23, 2013 2:46 UTC (Sat) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]
> Nice feature that filter button... but exactly as i expose just below
Gives a new meaning (hopefully) to the expression "indecent exposure"...
> ..and you don't have to plug off the eyes the hears or the mouth...
No comments.
Seriously, though, skipping occasional garbage by scrolling past it makes no sense when the source of that garbage is a twit of your caliber.
*plonk*
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 22, 2013 8:57 UTC (Fri) by loonyphoenix (guest, #89514) [Link]
How do I do that? I registered right now with the sole purpose of blocking that user, and I still can't see the button.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 22, 2013 9:00 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] See »Comment Filtering« under »My Account«.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 22, 2013 9:15 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]
You have to be subscribed at at least the "professional hackers" level for filtering to be enabled on your account though, as I understand it. If you are, but don't see the option, check that filtering is enabled in your preferences:
https://lwn.net/MyAccount/YOURUSERNAMEHERE/preferences/
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 9:17 UTC (Wed) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
And you know why... usually i read 100 posts in 2 or 3 minutes or less, its called "diagonal reading" meaning i don't read not even half of all written words, only read full posts if that are any "word or phrase that catches my attention"...
Sorry, i shouldn't be selfish thinking everybody does the same...
but there is also a reason for it, some most popular forums can have topics with thousands of posts trough hundreds of pages... and immense whole of garbage in the mix... so its not kook, its a style... but if you want call it kook i'm pretty fine with that... gazillion better a "kook" than a false person or a hired shill... what should matter is the truth...
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 25, 2013 16:30 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
If 'what should matter is the truth', it's amazing you don't bother to do any research before posting your conspiracy-laden blitherings. Virtually everything you have posted on this subject is either irrelevant (e.g. the arrival of new smartphones, wtf does that have to do with X vs Wayland?) or provably false because self-contradictory (the ridiculous conspiracy theories which would require several core X and Wayland developers to be conspiring against themselves).
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 25, 2013 16:27 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
I didn't know you could *do* green ink on LWN, but mmarq has found a way. I don't really understand how the heck the Wayland developers could be conspiring against the original X developers when many of them are the same people... split personalities, perhaps?
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 20, 2013 22:51 UTC (Wed) by Serge (guest, #84957) [Link]
> If wayland will be such upper duper it will win without much effort... if not, just history repeating itself...
If only things were that simple...
The problem is that Wayland can win even being much worse than X.Org. Remember OS/2, "a better DOS than DOS and a better Windows than Windows"? Windows was no better than OS/2, still it won. :)
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 21, 2013 8:49 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Actually Windows OS/2 popularity grew significantly when OS/2 3.0 Warp was released (especially in some countries like Germany). But then contract expired and IBM had no right to create OS/2 for Windows 95 which sealed it's fate.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 16, 2013 0:08 UTC (Sat) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
> the code is PRE-ALPHA STATE.
This is the core of the problem.
It makes news when a distro decides NOT to make Wayland the default in their next (6 month out) release.
You have many advocates for Wayland effectivly claiming that anyone who doesn't agree that Wayland isn't AS OF RIGHT NOW the best thing ever are either stick-in-the-muds or a fringe element that should be ignored and not supported in the future.
These don't jive with "PRE-ALPHA state"
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 16, 2013 0:20 UTC (Sat) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]
> You have many advocates for Wayland effectivly claiming that anyone who doesn't agree that Wayland isn't AS OF RIGHT NOW the best thing ever are either stick-in-the-muds or a fringe element that should be ignored and not supported in the future.
I don't think that's true at all, I haven't seen anything like that here, and I'm obsessive about reading lwn comments 8-). There are plenty of people who think wayland is the right direction for X to go in but that it is a work in progress. It'll probably be years before the major distros switch, but it will happen, there are too many benefits to not switch.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 18, 2013 23:15 UTC (Mon) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
That if it is NOT Open Source...
X without network is not X
So Wayland so far IS NOT an evolution of X, its a replacement, more centered around the "mobile" side(superphones/tablets and such)... and some how the agenda is against the possibility of OpenVPN home, and go by there virtue of X(something similar)... this interests going behind wayland want all going true the web(no private network for the desktop, only the public be available).
If Wayland is F/OSS, it might be that a couple of crazy gits decide to include the pertinent features in X itself... and you know what!?... this X system is faster and better in all aspects than Wayland...
Nothing particularly against wayland... go ahead please... but don't try to sabotage anyone else...
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 25, 2013 16:35 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] more centered around the "mobile" side(superphones/tablets and such)Absolute rubbish. Wayland is designed around the requirements of modern graphics hardware, and around the ways in which usage of X has changed over the years -- unless you think that all usage of Gtk and Qt is on smartphones and tablets, that is (which would, of course, be wrong). If Wayland is F/OSSIf? If? You haven't even done that much research? Googling for 'Wayland', clicking on the first link, and clicking on 'Wayland FAQ' tells you as much in the second FAQ item. Sheesh. a couple of crazy gits decide to include the pertinent features in X itselfGiven that most of the 'pertinent features' consist of getting X out of the way, something you can't do to an X server and still call it an X server, I'd say that this feature is self-contradictory (or, alternatively, has already been done: we call it DRI.)
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 17, 2013 15:21 UTC (Sun) by renox (subscriber, #23785) [Link]
> You have many advocates for Wayland effectivly claiming that anyone who doesn't agree that Wayland isn't AS OF RIGHT NOW the best thing ever are either stick-in-the-muds or a fringe element that should be ignored and not supported in the future.
Bah that's why vocal "fans" must be ignored be they Wayland-fan or X-fan or whatever-fan.
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 17, 2013 19:30 UTC (Sun) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
the problem is that it's hard or impossible to tell the difference between 'fans who should be ignored' and 'developers who you should try and convince or you will not have the equivalent to a feature you use now'
Gräßlin: Client Side Window Decorations and Wayland Posted Feb 18, 2013 23:30 UTC (Mon) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]
who in their right mind would care ????...
Don't ignore wayland... but just give the possibility of the user to change to the windowing system they like... no one minimally sane is going to argue about this or with anyone that chooses not to use wayland...
Them lets see who wins the preferences... or is Linux desktop to be transformed into windoze ?
|
|||||||||||||
