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Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

By Jake Edge
February 14, 2013

One of the features approved by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee (FESCo) at its February 6 meeting may come as a bit of a surprise to some: adding Apache OpenOffice (AOO) to the distribution. There was a fair amount of confusion in the fedora-devel mailing list discussion of the feature, mostly surrounding which office suite would be the default—AOO or LibreOffice (LO)—and there were also calls to disallow packaging AOO altogether. Those calls were ignored. But, since both suites have descended from the same parent, OpenOffice.org (OOo), there are some things to be worked out so both can coexist on one system. Beyond that, though, some AOO project members are not happy that LO has "squatted" on its program names—to the point where the issue of trademarks has been raised.

Adding Apache OpenOffice (AOO) to Fedora 19 was proposed by Andrea Pescetti, whose history with OpenOffice goes back to 2003. As with all feature proposals, Fedora product manager Jaroslav Reznik posted the proposal to the mailing list for discussion. That resulted in a fairly long thread—no surprise for fedora-devel.

There were calls to effectively ban AOO from Fedora, but that didn't really seem like a majority opinion, no matter how loudly expressed. Those arguments tended to center around hostility toward Oracle, which "shepherded" OpenOffice.org for a time after acquiring it with Sun. That hostility has bled over to the AOO project after the code was donated to Apache. Some were also concerned about users getting confused about which office suite to install or that adding another large (>1G) package would be a burden on mirrors.

In the end, though, there is nothing about AOO that violates Fedora's packaging guidelines, and giving users a choice of office suites is certainly in line with the distribution's mission (Adam Jackson's famous "Linux is not about choice" message notwithstanding). Beyond just OpenOffice.org descendants, Fedora already offers a number of other office suites (e.g. Calligra) or components (e.g. Gnumeric, AbiWord). As Martin Sourada put it:

[...] when Fedora switched to LO, as I understood it, the old OOo was supposed to slowly die off (or get closed), so LO was considered more or less a spiritual successor and there wasn't much profit in keeping OOo. Now that OOo was resurrected under the Apache hood and is "blooming" under the slightly changed name, we can profit from providing both, while still keeping LO default. And if there are people willing to do the work to make them both work seamlessly, why ban them?

At the FESCo meeting, there was essentially no question about approving AOO; the discussion was about technical issues in making LO and AOO coexist. The main problem is that both projects share program names (e.g. soffice, oowriter, ...) that originally came from OOo. If both packages are installed, obviously only one can own those names. FESCo decided to ask the two projects (or really the Fedora packagers of each project) to cooperate, but pointedly said that LO did not have to make any changes to accommodate AOO.

Pescetti announced the FESCo decision on the AOO development mailing list, which resulted in numerous congratulatory messages. The AOO project would clearly like to get into Linux distributions, where its predecessor OOo has almost completely been replaced by LO. Pescetti noted the clashing binary name issue in his announcement, which led to some unhappiness in the thread.

From the perspective of some in the AOO camp, that project is the "real" successor to OOo, and should thus be the inheritor of the names of the binary programs. But, Linux distributions switched to LO as the successor during the several years when there were no OOo releases and AOO either didn't exist or was still incubating. When Oracle donated the code to Apache, it also donated the OpenOffice.org trademark, which led Rob Weir to note:

But I would have trademark concerns if a statement like this installed anything but OpenOffice:

sudo yum install openoffice.org

That is not part of the problem, though, as the package name for LO in Fedora is not "openoffice.org". The names of the binaries used to invoke the office suite are a different story, though. It is not at all clear that an upstream project gets to decide what the binaries used by a particular distribution are called, trademarked or not. There has been no claim that things like soffice or oocalc are trademarked (and it's not at all clear they could be), but some in the AOO project believe they "belong" to AOO. Jürgen Schmidt described it this way:

And again changing soffice means much more work and I really don't see why we should change it because they belong to OpenOffice.

Some magic UNO bootstrap code used by UNO client applications used the soffice alias for example. Changing it would break potential client applications.

The other aliases like oowriter are obvious where they come from, why should we change them?

It is important to come back in distros but we should not [easily] give up what belongs to OpenOffice.

Weir is concerned about users getting confused, noting that the project has already heard from some that were confused by getting "something else" when they thought they were installing AOO. He called that "classic trademark infringement". Later in the thread, he made it clear that he is talking about AOO vs. LO confusion, rather than some other form of trademark confusion:

This argument is even stronger when we have, as we do, documented cases of users being confused, thinking they are getting OpenOffice, but instead getting LibreOffice.

Exactly how that confusion has come about (by running oocalc and getting LibreOffice Calc or by installing some package with an ambiguous name, for example) is not described. There is a largely unused openoffice.org alias in the Fedora LO package (pointing to libreoffice), but Pescetti does not think that getting rid of that will be a problem. Beyond that, it's not really clear what trademark infringement disagreements AOO could have with LO (or more precisely in this case, Fedora's packaging of LO). As Pescetti pointed out, even if there are any trademark issues, they should not take precedence over actually packaging AOO for Fedora:

Again, packaging is the real issue now. Let's make OpenOffice for Fedora exist before we come to these issues.

Given a historical perspective, one can understand both sides of the "who gets the binary names" argument. But, other than some possible (mis)use of openoffice.org, it's a bit hard to see a trademark issue in play here. In addition, Debian's "iceweasel" (which is its version of the Firefox web browser) can be invoked by typing "firefox" at the command line—seemingly without any trademark complaints from Mozilla.

Rather than muttering darkly about trademarks, working with LO and the Linux distributions to find an amicable solution on binary names for both projects would seem the proper course. There has been talk of prefxing "lo" or "aoo" for things like oowriter, but the trickiest to solve is likely to be the binary name with the oldest provenance: soffice, which hearkens back to the original StarOffice—grandparent of both AOO and LO.


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Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 4:06 UTC (Thu) by furlongm (subscriber, #34572) [Link]

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 5:37 UTC (Thu) by draco (subscriber, #1792) [Link]

Because it applies to the whole system. Maybe at home, you're the only user, but at school or work, computers could be shared and one user might prefer one suite and another a different one.

To some extent, this is a non-issue in a graphical environment anyway--each user picks the launcher(s) for the appropriate tool(s), but if something is programmatically calling the shared binary names, somebody's going to get surprised...unless the packagers come up with something else.

Use the PATH

Posted Feb 14, 2013 10:03 UTC (Thu) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

At least last time I installed OOo without it coming with the Linux distribution, it worked quite well after installing into a nonstandard directory (under /opt/something/) and arranging for your own PATH to point to the binary directory there. This way you can do "alternatives" without forcing a system-wide decision, just setting the users PATH to the desired variant.

The only problem here would be if both AOO and LO use some configuration files in the user's home directory with the same name. I have not looked into if this is the case.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 14:57 UTC (Thu) by brouhaha (subscriber, #1698) [Link]

There are probably some multiuser Linux systems where one user wants OpenJDK 1.7 and another wants GCJ 1.5. Nevertheless, Fedora uses "alternatives" for that selection on a system-wide basis. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 16:38 UTC (Thu) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link]

That's only because fedora java packaging is inherited from jpackage, and at the time those decisions were made jpackage-side, it had no member involved in end-user oriented software. Pretty much every every packaging choice made then was to make tomcat useful (tomcat being the hairiest java package jpp dared package at the time, that required about 1/3d or the repo as deps just to run), and allow easily switching /jvms in tomcat and other servery apps (because webapps were picky about the jvms they would run in).

So you got alternatives, per-app jvm overrides in /etc, and nothing user-side.

It's not that this potential issue was not identified then it's that no one was willing to work on it.

The situation for LO/AOO is different, they're end-user facing apps.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 15, 2013 17:43 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

> The situation for LO/AOO is different, they're end-user facing apps.

Alternatives is used for lots more then Java BS.

Lots of end user software has been subjected to alternatives treatment over the years. 'Vim' is one such beast, but there are plenty of others.

The AOO package came second. The LibreOffice was there first. If the AOO people want to 'solve' the problem of command line name space clashing then it's in their boat to solve it.. probably by having different command line names.

Nobody gives a crap who is the 'spiritual successor' and if AOO folks think that they can get their way by crying to the government and invoking trademark rules (which I don't think they have any case anyways) then screw them for trying to make the world a little bit more shitty.

Alternatives is a compromise, but it generally works and is what is been used in the past by hundreds of different things.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 19, 2013 17:15 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

If there were a way to stick the symlinks in ~/.local/bin rather than /usr/bin, I'd say alternatives could do what was necessary. Is there an update-alternatives --user?

Just because I use LO doesn't mean someone else on a shared machine shouldn't be allowed to use AOO.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Mar 3, 2013 19:22 UTC (Sun) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

If you want a personal alias or symlink, then why don't you just create it?

In any case, most desktop users would just use whatever menu/launcher/whatever their desktop provides, and those should point to the right binaries (so not the "legacy" ones) to start the application.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Mar 3, 2013 19:59 UTC (Sun) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Yeah, sure I can do that, but that's not the point. I'm just saying that It'd be nice if alternatives had a --user mode to do this for me instead of me looking at /etc/alternatives/foobar and replicating symlinks in my $HOME directory manually.

Plus, what end user knows what a symlink is, cares what ~/.local/bin is, recognized all these strangely terse and mangled binary names. They'd just want a GUI for "default office suite" with a radio button between LibreOffice and Apache.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Mar 3, 2013 20:31 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

File a RFE?

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Mar 12, 2013 9:20 UTC (Tue) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link]

> Plus, what end user knows what a symlink is, cares what ~/.local/bin is, recognized all these strangely terse and mangled binary names.

/THIS/ "end user" (altho it's simply ~/bin here, and I've taken advantage of the XDG_*_HOME environment-var overrides to alter the usual ~/.config and ~/.local locations to ~/config and ~/config/local as I don't like such important config information hidden)! =:^)

I still remember how wonderful I found symlinks, like *.lnk files except they /actually/ /worked/ as links, back when I first switched from MS. They're useful for all kinds of stuff, as are the individual directory and even individual file mount-binds that became possible a few years later, allowing features like no-exec or ro re-mounting that symlinks can't handle.

(Of course, /this/ "end user" happens to be a /gentoo/ end user, and /thrives/ on exactly this sort of user level customization, thus my pick of gentoo in the first place. =:^)

Duncan

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 7:14 UTC (Thu) by johannbg (subscriber, #65743) [Link]

Why simply dont these two office project merged back into one? It certainly wont be more confusing for users than the current situation is.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 8:14 UTC (Thu) by edomaur (subscriber, #14520) [Link]

Well, this won't happen. Sorry.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 15, 2013 5:00 UTC (Fri) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link]

Because it's far too late for "simply" to apply.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 19, 2013 9:57 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (subscriber, #65743) [Link]

What are the technical arguments for this not happening other than "sorry" "it's to late"

Why don't MariaDB and MySQL simply merge together again?

Posted Feb 21, 2013 18:34 UTC (Thu) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

Thaat's crazy! you say. Well, it's the same sort of problem with LO and AOO.

There's now two different competing organisations. The internal API of LO is drifting at iceberg speed, not at glacier pace like AOO - the new V4 apparently has major changes under the hood.

Technical direction is probably very different.

A lot of LO contributors were shut out during the OOo days, and haven't found the AOO days any more attractive ...

Yup, I know they're not technical reasons, but afaik the LO crew just don't give a monkeys what AOO gets up to. On the other hand, AOO is unhealthily interested in what LO is doing.

Doesn't engender friendly relations.

Cheers,
Wol

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 23, 2013 14:11 UTC (Sat) by keeperofdakeys (subscriber, #82635) [Link]

First of all, LibreOffice is licensed under GPL, whereas Apache OpenOffice is licensed under Apache. When LibreOffice originally forked the code, they re-licensed it from its original license. They also merged some GPL patches that existed from before OpenOffice was officially discontinued (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go-oo). Many people will prefer Apache licensing over GPL.

As for the code, LibreOffice originally merged some of the changes made to the AOO project. However in the year or two since the fork, they have taken the code in a totally different direction. AOO has also undergone many changes in a different direction, to the point where it would be nearly impossible to merge them without the kind of effort it would take to write a new office suite.

There is also Symphony, which was an IBM fork of OpenOffice. This has been given to Apache, and is being slowly merged into AOO. The code is different, but not different enough that it can't be worked in. It includes new features and bug fixes, which will help AOO.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 9:57 UTC (Thu) by skx (subscriber, #14652) [Link]

But I would have trademark concerns if a statement like this
installed anything but OpenOffice:

sudo yum install openoffice.org

That's the same issue raised, years ago, in Debian about firefox vs. iceweasel.

Debian clearly decided that having a package called firefox, and binary called firefox, was not a trademark concern and instead a useful thing for compatibility.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 14:46 UTC (Thu) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

Not speaking officially for Mozilla, but I view this sort of thing under the banner of "reverse engineering for the purposes of compatibility" and therefore arguably outside the scope of what trademark law restricts. I'm not a lawyer, although I do play one in real life ;-)

Gerv

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 14:51 UTC (Thu) by brouhaha (subscriber, #1698) [Link]

In the US, copyright law (as amended by the DMCA) has an exemption for reverse engineering for compatibility purposes, but as far as I can tell, there's no similar exemption for trademark law.

I'm definitely not a lawyer.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 15:17 UTC (Thu) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

It was mentioned in the legal dev room at FOSDEM that to the extent that you try and use your trademark as an anti-compatibility mechanism, implementations attempting to get compatibility acquire a license to your trademarks. But I can't remember who said it, or what legal precedent they quoted. :-|

Gerv

Trademarks

Posted Feb 14, 2013 19:18 UTC (Thu) by brugolsky (subscriber, #28) [Link]

I don't know whether this was the referenced decision, but in the Sega vs. Accolade case, Accolade was sued for circumventing Sega's game console restrictions by copying a small amount of code to enable the Sega Genesis to validate the game; this had the side-effect of displaying Sony's trademark on game startup. The court ruled in Accolade's favor, despite the potential "consumer confusion".

Trademarks

Posted Feb 14, 2013 19:36 UTC (Thu) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

That certainly rings a bell.

Gerv

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 14, 2013 23:29 UTC (Thu) by brouhaha (subscriber, #1698) [Link]

I'm familiar with Sega v. Accolade, but unless it can be shown that people are invoking oocalc, oowriter, etc. programmatically by name, I don't think it's at all relevant to whether the LibreOffice folks are or are not infringing a trademark by naming their executables as they do.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 21, 2013 14:16 UTC (Thu) by Otus (guest, #67685) [Link]

> I'm familiar with Sega v. Accolade, but unless it can be shown that people are invoking oocalc, oowriter, etc. programmatically by name, I don't think it's at all relevant to whether the LibreOffice folks are or are not infringing a trademark by naming their executables as they do.

Aren't .desktop files technically a way to programmatically invoke binaries by name?

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 21, 2013 17:54 UTC (Thu) by brouhaha (subscriber, #1698) [Link]

Not in normal use. They provide a means for the desktop environment to show them to the user, for the user to manually invoke them. In my experience they usually aren't named e.g. oocalc.desktop; for instance on Fedora 17 the corresponding desktop file is libreoffice-calc.desktop. Therefore you can't make the argument that the .desktop file in any way requires that the name of the file be oocalc for any compatibility purpose.

API compatability; xdg-open

Posted Feb 14, 2013 20:03 UTC (Thu) by scripter (subscriber, #2654) [Link]

As I see it, the binary name -- the one we use on the command line to start a program -- is an API, even if it's not a very precise one. I don't think APIs are patentable or copyrightable. Trademarkable? I hope not.

On the other hand, there's xdg-open -- and the preferred application can be configured per user. So, instead of directly running a binary by the name of oowriter, call 'xdg-open' instead.

xdg-open <file|URL>

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 15:07 UTC (Sat) by rcweir (subscriber, #48888) [Link]

An analogy: We type search strings into Google search, and get search result back, including AdWord sponsored advertisements. And we know that Google has enough concern in some jurisdictions to avoid advertisements that are keyed off of trademarked terms.

Similarly yum is an interface for requesting the install/configuration of software goods. Is it *purely* a programmatic interface? Of course not. It is user-facing as well (e.g., it is covered in "Linux for Dummies"). It is one of the means that Fedora uses to give users the software that they (the users) request. The fact that Fedora does not do this in the case of OpenOffice, and provides different software, not requested by the user, has already caused user confusion. The user confusion is what is important here. This is not only a trademark question. It is a usability question as well.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 15:44 UTC (Sat) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

$ sudo apt-get install firefox

leading to an install of Iceweasel is, I agree, a problem.

$ sudo apt-get install iceweasel
$ firefox

launching iceweasel is less of one, IMO, particularly if the logo is not used anywhere on the desktop, and if you do

$ which firefox
/usr/bin/firefox
$ ls -l /usr/bin/firefox
/usr/bin/firefox -> ../lib/iceweasel/iceweasel.sh

To put it another way: it would be a very hard fight to prove that creation of a symbolic link was a trademark infringement.

Gerv

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 16:33 UTC (Sat) by rcweir (subscriber, #48888) [Link]

I hope you agree that if the user did choose to install Firefox, then it would be perverse for anything but Firefox to be launched when the user gives the command "firefox". I just talking about satisfying user expectations and avoiding confusion, something I assume the Fedora community cares about even more than trademarks.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 17:42 UTC (Sat) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

Would you say that if a user has installed Sendmail, it would be perverse for the "sendmail" command to launch anything else? In all circumstances?

Gerv

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 18:46 UTC (Sat) by rcweir (subscriber, #48888) [Link]

That would depend on the circumstances, whether the term was strongly associated with a single product, whether the term had become generic over time, whether it was a trademark or was confusingly similar to one, whether there was demonstrable user confusion, etc.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 20, 2013 21:41 UTC (Wed) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

"Sendmail" is a trademark of Sendmail: http://www.sendmail.co.uk/sm/company/terms/ .

I really don't think you'll get far objecting to symlinks and the Debian "alternatives" system or the like. I agree that the "openoffice.org" or "openoffice-org" package should contain Apache OpenOffice.org, but I'm not sure anyone is suggesting otherwise.

Gerv

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 20, 2013 22:38 UTC (Wed) by rcweir (subscriber, #48888) [Link]

Surely the technical embodiment is irrelevant? What matters is whether it causes likelihood of confusion as to the origin of the software. A symlink hidden away in the bowels of a system where no consumer will touch it is one thing. But a symlink that is exposed in an interface for consumers (even a command line interface for skilled consumers) to acquire software may be another.

Think of it this way, a domain name is also merely an alias, in this case for a numeric IP address. But URLs, as interfaces for consumers to access goods and services, raises trademark concerns every day. So I'd never say that a symlink can never be an issue. But I'd never say it always is an issue. In the end this is not a question of technology in the abstract but of how consumers relate to the terms used.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 25, 2013 14:14 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

So, you'd object to /usr/sbin/sendmail and/or /usr/lib/sendmail launching exim, or postfix, rather than the trademarked Sendmail? A shame it can do both those things.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 25, 2013 15:37 UTC (Mon) by rcweir (subscriber, #48888) [Link]

Actually, I offered no opinion on sendmail. It would depend on the particulars, and I'm not familiar with them. But from what little I know, this does not appear to be equivalent. It is not an interface that consumers use to install named software.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 25, 2013 19:01 UTC (Mon) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

the issue is that it's the way that people interact with the named software.

this is exactly the same issue as soffice and oofice links.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 15:15 UTC (Sat) by rcweir (subscriber, #48888) [Link]

But would it do the same if it had a package for Firefox as well as a package for IceWeasel? That's closer to what we're looking at here.

Wouldn't it be confusing if both were available in the repository, but users requesting to install firefox got something else instead, when the thing they were requesting was actually in the repository?

Debian/Ubuntu Libreoffices lack /usr/bin/oo*

Posted Feb 15, 2013 2:44 UTC (Fri) by douglasbagnall (subscriber, #62736) [Link]

The Debian world seemed to drop the oowriter and ooffice names when Libreoffice took over (soffice remains).

I always end up remaking the ooffice alias, so my fingers can remain ignorant of Libreoffice's true identity.

Debian/Ubuntu LibreOffice is already called /usr/bin/lo*, not oo*

Posted Feb 27, 2013 1:48 UTC (Wed) by pjm (subscriber, #2080) [Link]

More specifically, the LibreOffice names are lowriter etc. I'm ignorant, but it seems to me that it would be good for Fedora LibreOffice to provide an lowriter name (and so on) now, even if ‘oowriter’ for the moment still launches LibreOffice writer. Really, it doesn't seem like a big deal.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 15, 2013 10:06 UTC (Fri) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link]

It's quite lovely to see Mr. Weir considering using lawyers to make up for Apache OpenOffice's lack of technical ability to deliver working software for over a year…

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 15:18 UTC (Sat) by rcweir (subscriber, #48888) [Link]

#1 I said I had "concerns". It is quite a leap from that to "considering using lawyers". From a usability perspective I think many would have concerns if users request one program, but they get a different one, especially if the program they are requesting is in the repository.

#2 The interval of releases is irrelevant when it comes to trademarks. Microsoft Office comes out with a new release every three years. But I don't think you would be comfortable defining "microsoft-office" as an alias for LibreOffice in Fedora, would you?

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 20, 2013 11:52 UTC (Wed) by nickbp (subscriber, #63605) [Link]

An 'msoffice' alias would be a bit odd at first glance, but it would make sense given that LO/AOO, as projects, are both aiming to be a drop-in replacement for MS Office.

On this basis, having eg 'oowriter' launch LO Writer makes even more sense.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 21, 2013 19:05 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Are they meant to be command-line compatible? If not, a .desktop file which calls it msoffice would be much better. If AOO and LO ever start accepting different arguments, it could get to a point where relying on "oowriter --flag=bar" is going to get as bad as expecting "sed -i" to work across all the *nix platforms.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 15, 2013 10:47 UTC (Fri) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

AOO might be the "real" successor to OOo, but Fedora did not carry OOo, but go-oo whose successor is clearly LO. Also after letting OOo users without security support for more than one year, AOO cannot claim continuity.

Rob Weir should know that trademarks does not apply to functional use of names. If AOO upstream want to be included in distros, they should refrain from bullying and abusive behavior.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 15, 2013 11:05 UTC (Fri) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]

Fedora actually made multiple upstream switches. First they used go-oo/ooobuild 2.0, then they switched (back) to OpenOffice 3 and finally when LibreOffice/TDF became the place where the community decided to collaborate together they switched from OpenOffice to LibreOffice. See
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-Janu...

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 17:46 UTC (Sat) by rcweir (subscriber, #48888) [Link]

No one is bullying or abusing anyone. As far as I can see we're all on the same side here. No one wants to see Fedora users confused, whether they choose to use LibreOffice, or whether they choose the use Apache OpenOffice. We all share the same goal of making it simple for the user to get what the want. This goal should be uncontroversial and comes down to a set of technical and coordination tasks.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 15:34 UTC (Sat) by rcweir (subscriber, #48888) [Link]

Two general issues:

1) End-user facing names -- Hopefully we all agree that if both LO and AOO are in the repository then when users request one of these by name they should get the one that they request. This minimizes user confusion and respects the user's choice. Note: this is the purpose of trademarks, to prevent the consumer from being confused about the origin of goods. So respecting trademarks is really about respecting the user and their expressed preferences.

2) Programmatic interfaces -- I think we can design this, and provide documentation, so that a user who depends on this can configure it either way, e.g., by redefining a symlink. This is not something desktop end-users would need to worry about, but would come in with some server-side uses, where soffice (or others) might be invoked for document conversion, PDF export or similar uses.

If we can avoid letting the politics get in the way these are both easy technical problems.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 15:51 UTC (Sat) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

The current state of things is:

1) Libreoffice does not claim to be openoffice.org anywhere in its package metadata, and as such "yum install openoffice.org" will just give a failure.
2) Libreoffice does not claim to be openoffice.org anywhere in its application desktop files, so it won't appear under that name in any GUI application listing.
3) Libreoffice provides /usr/bin/soffice, /usr/bin/ooffice, /usr/bin/oowriter and so on. These are arguably a programmatic interface not subject to trademark restrictions, and I don't think there's any interest in changing that behaviour without a very convincing legal case being put forward. Rob is, I'm sure, aware of where he can find the appropriate Fedora mailing list to discuss that if he thinks it's a problem. Alternatives are a possible, if inelegant, solution to both LO and AOO wanting to provide the same files there.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 16, 2013 16:58 UTC (Sat) by rcweir (subscriber, #48888) [Link]

You are beating up on a strawman that you concocted yourself. I never said *anything* about a "legal case" or even expressed concern about /user/bin/soffice. In fact, I said quite the opposite, that these are easy technical issues to resolve.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 17, 2013 11:49 UTC (Sun) by jrn (subscriber, #64214) [Link]

If I understand Matthew correctly, when he wrote

> I don't think there's any interest in changing that behaviour without a very convincing legal case being put forward

he did not mean that you had claimed a convincing legal case. He just was explaining that, within Fedora, the people that generally technical decisions about libreoffice packaging are not likely to change the behavior of the soffice and ooffice commands without a good reason, for example a legal one.

I also imagine they'd be open to patches, assuming there's some good packaging change that doesn't harm current users.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 19, 2013 19:57 UTC (Tue) by filipjoelsson (subscriber, #2622) [Link]

Are you guys arguing over the name OpenOffice.org? Really?!

I know two classes of OOo users:
1) Technically cluefull people who made a concious choice when they picked OOo way back
2) People who used it because that was mandated IT policy.

The people in class 1 are not confused and the people in class 2 are sick of OOo for two reasons: a) Lack of updates for a long period and b) confusion with MS Office.

Granted, most people using Fedora belong to group 1, but I still can't see that the brand is worth fighting over. It has spoiled.

Or are you arguing over principles? If so, have a go at it - I'll bring snacks.

Apache OpenOffice in Fedora

Posted Feb 21, 2013 19:00 UTC (Thu) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

Add to which, the reason it's formally called OpenOffice.org, and not just OpenOffice, is that SOMEBODY ELSE owns the name already!

Actually, I think the easiest fix is probably to say that BOTH packages update their actual names to reflect today (ie loffice and aoffice) and both provide an optional backwards-compatibility pack that provides symlinks from the old names.

Cheers,
Wol

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