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25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for WomenPosted Feb 2, 2013 2:36 UTC (Sat) by duffy (guest, #31787)In reply to: 25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women by blujay Parent article: 25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women
This is probably the worst comment I've ever seen on LWN. You should be banned from posting.
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25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 2, 2013 5:23 UTC (Sat) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]
I think blujay is pretty wrong too but that doesn't mean it's right to silence which I believe is a genuinely held opinion, we should welcome the discussion and, at the end, maybe agree to disagree. LWN is generally open to having a frank discussion of ideas as long as the conversation remains civil, and even after civility has left.
If you want to not see these comments you can always censor yourself by using the ignore feature provided to subscribers, I have found it useful to get rid of the most offensive noisemakers, people who seem impervious to logic, reason or a clue-by-four and who seem to like the drama.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 2, 2013 7:53 UTC (Sat) by AlexHudson (subscriber, #41828) [Link]
Offensive noise-makers are an obvious and explicit community problem. The problem of sexism in this community is just as obvious, but the people who perpetuate it are not obvious, and it's an implicit problem.
Even if we could, with a wave of the magic wand, immediately make the community entirely non-sexist and as welcoming to women as men: this still wouldn't solve the problem. Inequality created the problem, but equality alone can't fix it effectively.
LWN is an excellent community resource. If a woman wants to get involved in our community she should be reading it. For me, a discussion about whether an Outreach programme is sexist against men - no matter the conduct of the discussion - is not going to be understood by such readers as a jolly exercise in freedom of speech, or the mature discussion of a community that thinks it might have solved it sexism problems.
She may take one look and wonder how insecure we must be as a male community if we cannot tolerate a programme to encourage minority participants. That's probably about the most positive view I can think she would go away with; the other possible interpretations are far worse.
I don't restrict this belief to posters who are against pro-women programmes. I genuinely believe that comments whose content is largely destructive ("I want you to stop doing X because I don't like it", whether X is "developing systemd", "GNOME UI improvements", "development under a BSD license", whatever) shouldn't have a place here.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 2, 2013 12:16 UTC (Sat) by xan (guest, #58606) [Link]
> I don't restrict this belief to posters who are against pro-women programmes. I genuinely believe that comments whose content is largely destructive ("I want you to stop doing X because I don't like it", whether X is "developing systemd", "GNOME UI improvements", "development under a BSD license", whatever) shouldn't have a place here.
Hear, hear.
It's getting to a point where I basically skim through the first comments and when I see the usual mix of violent and destructive garbage I just ignore everything else (possible missing the hidden gem among the trash). I think the only way to fix this is to implement serious editorial control in the comments to make this place a high quality technical debate forum that is welcoming for everyone. As thing stands now it's only welcoming to angry privileged geek males that seem to hate most things.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 2, 2013 19:09 UTC (Sat) by duffy (guest, #31787) [Link]
"It's getting to a point where I basically skim through the first comments and when I see the usual mix of violent and destructive garbage I just ignore everything else"
Exactly. To me this is really sad, because LWN didn't used to be that type of place.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 2, 2013 21:22 UTC (Sat) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]
let me humbly suggest that this algorithm for comment skimming is going to tend to be a downward spiral for you. The most thoughtful comments, seldom come first.
I would posit that generally speaking the first people to post on a comment thread on a political/policy subject are the people who are less likely to be thinking rationally, or with an open mind. They more likely or not either reacting primarily emotionally, or have a lovingly crafted (and generally well-used) ax they are looking to grind into razor edge perfection. Or they are just bored.
And I include my own behavior in that observation, I'm no saint.
Sometimes its really unfortunate that the first people to post, are the people who set the tone and agenda for discussion for days afterwards.
And with the above said in mind, I would make a different proposal with regard to editoral control.
Implement a peer subscriber ranking system attach a post visibility delay to the ranking. People ranked highly by their peers have their posts delayed for shorter periods of time than those rankly low. This takes the negative impact out of destructive first posters. The posts still show up, but only after highly ranked posters get to set the tone and direction of the visual discussion. The less appreciated posters, as their posts show up after the extended delay, just end up looking like sidebar spurs to what is hopefully a more nuanced discussion for the main threads.
-jef
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 2, 2013 23:29 UTC (Sat) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]
> Implement a peer subscriber ranking system attach a post visibility delay to the ranking.
This seems to implicitly presupposes a peergroup that is of a single mind on average. For divisive issues where there are >=2 passionate, reasonable sides it might not work very well. I guess it would probably fail open, where most posts show up quickly, so it's worth a try.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 2, 2013 23:58 UTC (Sat) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]
No, such a system would never stop discussion when there are substantial disagreements. But it would give all of us a chance to have the discussion be led by those among us who we recognize as thoughtful and well-spoken. It would delay some of the the anticipated noise, even my noise. If there is going to be a debate on a thorny issue, I'd rather see the discussion led by people we've come to expect to be able to talk through conflict, instead of just random people who push the submit button first.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 2, 2013 16:44 UTC (Sat) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]
> For me, a discussion about whether an Outreach programme is sexist against men - no matter the conduct of the discussion - is not going to be understood by such readers as a jolly exercise in freedom of speech, or the mature discussion of a community that thinks it might have solved it sexism problems.
I understand that there is a danger there but I think the greater good is served by having the discussion because I think the response shows more good things about our community than if such content is censored. It shows that we can have an adult conversation and it shouldn't be a newsflash that there are people with many different opinions out there, it would be a disservice to pretend anything different.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 2, 2013 19:22 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
It certainly shows things about our community. I'm not sure they're good, though.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 2, 2013 12:15 UTC (Sat) by Company (guest, #57006) [Link]
He spun it nicely, but one point is important: The program is sexist. And that's by design. In fact it's right there in the title.
Once you accept this, he's just a rambling racist. Otherwise he'd have supplied translations into languages besides English, that prick.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 3, 2013 9:40 UTC (Sun) by efraim (subscriber, #65977) [Link]
I don't see anything offensive with in the parent post. I see offensive things in yours though - wanting someone to be banned for posting a comment you just don't agree with is definitely not a behavior I find engaging.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 3, 2013 22:08 UTC (Sun) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
If he was speaking within GNOME I'd really question if he was following a Code of Conduct. He said he's exaggerating on purpose. One post, no, no need to ban indeed.
However, you quickly want someone else to be banned though. Asking for that is not offensive however.
Within GNOME we've had a Code of Conduct for a long time now. I'm not sure if you ever participated in any of such discussions on how to behave and how to judge.
I guess your intention is that 1 person calling for a ban is not how to do things, to which everyone will agree. However, people are NOT free to say everything they want in any manner that they want. I find it really sad that LWN allows for such bad behaviour to continue endlessly.
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 4, 2013 9:02 UTC (Mon) by efraim (subscriber, #65977) [Link]
A (not-so-)minor nitpick: people ARE free to say what they want in any manner they want. Any forum of course has a relevant code of conduct (terms of use if you will) and does expect its participants to behave accordingly. (or bans them otherwise)
However, I am not aware of any term of LWN terms and conditions which was obviously violated by the grand parent's post and I would like to understand what exactly is violated in GNOMEs code of conduct. I do see a bit of a hyperbole, however I don't think hyperbole is prohibited. (I have not participated in GNOME discussion and obviously do not know what exactly GNOMEs code of conduct contains)
25 Women in 10 Free Software Organizations for GNOME's Outreach Program for Women Posted Feb 4, 2013 10:13 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
People aren't free to say anything they want in any manner that they want within GNOME (servers, community events, etc). On LWN site they do unfortunately. In GNOME, they are not.
In GNOME we try to be respectful towards others opinions. A Code of Conduct is not meant for nitpicking and checking if some rule was really broken or not. One of the intentions is that people can have hugely different opinions yet still discuss this. This without for instance resulting in things like exaggerating.
Blujay for instance already said he exaggerated on purpose. IMO he(?) distorted what the people behind this outreach program are trying to do and what the intention is behind this program.
If someones intention is to object to something and not display any behaviour that might result in any change: ok, so be it. But then I prefer if the person just keeps silent, because I'm not interested in venting.
If you want to have some reasonable discussion, it does NOT help at all if you do not show some understanding that purposely exaggerating what other people are doing is NOT helpful at all. I don't expect anything positive to come out of such behaviour (purposely making things more emotional).
"banning", or checking against some list of rules and if they maybe were broken or are also IMO distracting.
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