Seigo: Plasma.next()? [LWN.net]

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 30, 2013 17:35 UTC (Wed) by aseigo (guest, #18394)
In reply to: Seigo: Plasma.next()? by ibukanov
Parent article: Seigo: Plasma.next()?

> A hierarchy where each node fits on the screen is perfect for a tablet as
> one can literally remember finger movements to get to the item.

and utterly fails when the collection grows.

the vast majority of people absolutely suck at hierarchical navigation, just as the vast majority of people absolutely suck at remembering numbers longer than a handful of digits.

> I do not see how tags provide such navigation stability.

by removing the need to navigate a non-spatial data set spatially.

how often do people lose their keys?
how often do they forget what their keys look like, or which keys are on their keyring?

> For big collection of images the story is not so good even if one just
> wants to see them.

the movements to tag a big collection of images into the same organizational array as represented by a bunch of folders is approximately equivalent (can be slightly better, can be slightly worse, can be the same; depends on the exact structure).

the problem most people have with tags (me included, btw) is that the mechanisms provided to tag things have SUCKED (as in: too labor intensive, not part of the primary workflow so always extra work rather than "for free" during usage) only to have really weak tools built around the semantic data sets such as "a tag cloud" or "if you show this sidebar and then change the view appropriately, you can reduce the current display by a given tag." which means the input effort totally outweighs the output benefit.

i have, actually, used Plasma Active to tag large sets of photos such as ones i took on a vacation last year. the one thing i really wanted available was a "show me pictures i haven't tagged yet" (something like a negative tag filter) .. it's on my todo in any case :) we have a full "importing large photo sets" type workflow already designed out, it's a matter of getting to the implementation (which will happen eventually; we're moving at a good pace as can be seen over the short lifespan of Active so far :)

keeping in mind that tags are but one aspect of the semantic data we provide access to (time, usage patterns and in-file metadata also are utilized; free text searching, timelines, etc are also provided built into the workflow everywhere) and that the UI limits the input effort and maximizes the output benefit, with a worst case usually being "equal to a hierarchical system" .. it works rather well.

now, one use case i find it is still not good enough for is when you start with a disk full of metadata free pictures that have few if any relationships with each other (iow: migrating to the system from a historically data poor system). we have some thoughts on how to ease such transitions (including mining the existing folder hierarchy if it exists) and will be improving that aspect of things. of course, we first needed a working metadata centric system to migrate too ;) and for touch devices right now, the common use case does not currently include "migrating all the content from my laptop with a 15 year old file structure on it" (which would be my case :) but rather tends to be a "starting from a blank device, adding content to it incrementally during use"

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Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 30, 2013 21:25 UTC (Wed) by jospoortvliet (subscriber, #33164) [Link]

I think at least THAT statement is a quite well known fact. People like you and me are at least reasonably good at managing hierarchy's (I'm personally actually to unorganized for it - I create 'temp' folders everywhere in which I just dump 'temporary' files which I keep there for years. But I get the concept just fine).

But go an look at the desktop of the office workers doing your tax papers. They dump most of their files in a single folder... Lots of people do it and I think Mac OS X, with Spotlight, has already shown that search is far more usable than folders for the 'average' person. Now imagine taking that dumb full-text indexing and augmenting it with smart meta-data extracting (including the ability to grab tags from the web etc), linking files to usage paterns etc etc - and you can hopefully imagine how much easier it gets to find what you're looking for with very little effort.

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 30, 2013 21:29 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Wow, you're really reaching. Are you really disagreeing with the statement you quoted?

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 30, 2013 21:45 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I agree that most people don't use hierarchy to organize files and folders. But I disagree that most people are bad at navigating an existing hierarchy.

At my work, we've organized all our documents in Subversion and even the non-technical people have no problem keeping things in a nicely-organized hierarchy: agreements, leads, quotes, etc.

Once you show people a hierarchy and show how easy it is to use, they just get it in my experience.

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 30, 2013 19:26 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

by removing the need to navigate a non-spatial data set spatially.

This is a very bad thing. Muscle memory is unlike any other kind of human memory in that it almost never fades. If you learn to play the piano, don't play for 20 years, and then go back to it, your muscle memory will be almost 100% intact. I talk from experience here...

Furthermore, memory experts (I mean those who participate in memory contests) specifically make spatial associations with the objects the need to remember because humans have a very good spatial memory and can remember far more spatial relationships than the standard "5 to 9" items in short-term memory. And unlike you, I even have a reference.

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 30, 2013 21:27 UTC (Wed) by jospoortvliet (subscriber, #33164) [Link]

I don't get the whole 'muscle memory' argument on computers, tbh. I use my data over different devices, laptop, mobile phone and desktop and hopefully in the future a tablet. Muscle memory will be utterly useless. Even on the same device it makes only sense for often accessed things - which I usually access by typing "alt-F2 - WORD" anyway, or via the 'recent files/locations' section in my filemanager...

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 30, 2013 21:42 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I don't get the whole 'muscle memory' argument on computers, tbh

Really? I still use the same key bindings for my window manager (maximize, minimize, bring-to-front, etc.) that I first learned on SunOS in 1990. :) I found the swap of Ctrl and CapsLock on IBM PC keyboards circa 1992 horribly jarring.

And even on my recently-acquired mobile device, I am learning where things are and where to swipe or tap to do various things.

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 31, 2013 3:14 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

That likely puts you in rare company. I've learned and re-learned the basic UI paradigms at least half a dozen times in that period, DOS, Win3x, Win9x, SunOS OpenLook, Linux, FVWM, KDE1, BeOS, KDE2-3, Blackbox/Openbox, GNOME 1, GNOME 2, Win2k/XP, MacOS X 10.4-10.6 and 10.7-10.8, Unity, GNOME 3, iOS, most of which I've used for a main desktop for some period of time. I've learned to not bother with highly custom workflows and lots of key binding memorization because it dosen't translate when things change, to stick with with the universal workflows and the main theme that each system is designed to support. Every system has a design theme (except maybe for Windows for which design by committee would probably be an improvement) that generally makes sense and becomes easier to use once you discover it.

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 31, 2013 12:20 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Ah. My approach is simply not to use systems that can't be made to work the way I like. I don't use Windows or Apple products. And though I have switched window managers and desktop environments a few times, all of the ones I've used could be made to work the way I liked.

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 31, 2013 21:55 UTC (Thu) by jospoortvliet (subscriber, #33164) [Link]

now you are talking about something entirely different - physical location of keys. Yes, i rely on that too and hate switching keyboards. But it is not related to a file-hierarchy vs metadata discussion...

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Feb 1, 2013 12:20 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I was responding to this: ...by removing the need to navigate a non-spatial data set spatially...

Seigo: Plasma.next()?

Posted Jan 31, 2013 9:23 UTC (Thu) by ibukanov (subscriber, #3942) [Link]

> and utterly fails when the collection grows.

This is not true. As long as number of items per node is small adding a new subtree affects only few nodes so relearning is quick.

> the vast majority of people absolutely suck at hierarchical navigation,

Yes, I have seen those desktops with over 100 files. But I also observed that people navigate them relatively efficiently because they know where the items is on the desktop using the position on the screen and the icon as rather effective visual hint. They often do not want to introduce folders because common GUI do not permit change the folder icon with minimal efforts. And they hate big time when something changes the order of the icons.

But when the number of files growths, folders and even sub-folders do appear. They are very add-hock and sometimes named so the folder would appear on a particular place on the screen that person uses as a navigational clue.

The tag systems that I have seen completely loose that visual hint about item being at a particular place. For example, a tag system cannot express the hint "to the left of the picture of a dog".

As others already pointed out, tags are brilliant for searching and accessing rarely used files or files from other users, but for navigating big personal working sets one often wants a stable ad-hock structure that has nothing to do with file content but rather reflects personal habits and clues of working with files.