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LWN.net Weekly Edition for May 16, 2013
A look at the PyPy 2.0 release
PostgreSQL 9.3 beta: Federated databases and more
LWN.net Weekly Edition for May 9, 2013
(Nearly) full tickless operation in 3.10
You have searched for the wrong thing ... what you want is a bug tracker to report your problem (and data to help to get it fixed). In your case you have another driver to chose from.
> Also, why are you assuming I chose that GPU?
I have just said that you paid for it. Maybe that is not true either but someone has payed for it ... why do you just accept that it is useless rather then try to get it to work?
> Sadly, a significant number of computers do not have well-supported 3D under Linux.
Citation needed. That might have been true in the past but 3D is no longer considered just "nice to have" and driver have improved significantly because of that.
Also the comment I have replied to stated "does not have 3D acceleration" ... finding such a system in 2013 is a challenge ;) (if you exclude obscure server chipsets).
Classic mode questions
Posted Jan 27, 2013 13:26 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341)
As for which computers don't have good 3D support under Linux, install Fedora on any NVidia system. I don't have a citation to hand, however it's surely not controversial that NVidia graphics constitute a sizeable set of modern computers?
Posted Jan 27, 2013 13:52 UTC (Sun) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715)
My point was you won't just accept that it is broken but try to get it fixed.
> So where do I go where I can pay someone to fix GNOME-shell induced graphics problems?
Find an engineer that has the required knowledge and pay him for fixing it. You can search in IRC channels or mailing list for people with the required skills.
> I don't have any confidence that just leaving a bug report in some tracker somewhere, in the hope some hacker I have no contractual relationship with will fix it, will lead to this issue being fixed.
If you don't even tell the developers about your bug chances are that it indeed never gets fixed unless someone fixes it by accident or someone else hits it and reports it.
> As for which computers don't have good 3D support under Linux, install Fedora on any NVidia system.
Done that and works fine.
> I don't have a citation to hand, however it's surely not controversial that NVidia graphics constitute a sizeable set of modern computers?
No the controversial part is that they don't have working 3D acceleration. Just because you hit a bug with your specific GPU / configuration does not mean that NVIDIA cards do not work at all. Also there is the binary driver which works as well.
Posted Jan 27, 2013 14:11 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341)
The problems with nouveau's 3D support and GNOME-Shell are not exactly there because of a lack of my bug-report. Look in the bug trackers yourself I'd love to see nouveau support improve.
I have in the past donated money to or bought things from wish-lists for various projects and people. Ideally, I'd pay the employer of the majority of GNOME and Linux graphics hackers, but they don't (yet?) have any offering of support for GNOME shell, afaik. Been less able to do this the last few years, for personal financial reasons.
I guess there's lessons here for me about what I should rely on.
Posted Jan 27, 2013 16:11 UTC (Sun) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715)
You can't expect developers to not utilise the hardware that is available because there is a bug on your system. Apparently it either always has been broken (and you just did not notice it) or it coincidently broke at the same time you upgraded to GNOME3 (by getting the broken driver at the same upgrade).
> The problems with nouveau's 3D support and GNOME-Shell are not exactly there because of a lack of my bug-report. Look in the bug trackers yourself I'd love to see nouveau support improve.
. Which bugs? Sure there are bugs but stop claiming that GNOME3 does not work on nouveau just because it hits a particular bug on your system. Just tested it again (NVA0 GPU) works just fine.
Posted Jan 27, 2013 16:32 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341)
Posted Jan 27, 2013 16:38 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341)
Note that I'm not blaming any one, I'm just giving factual statements as to what led me to make the decisions I did. I suggest you reflect on the utility of reacting to such by blaming me.
Posted Jan 27, 2013 18:08 UTC (Sun) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715)
Posted Jan 28, 2013 14:36 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576)
Your 'sufficient' solution is orders of magnitude more difficult than the 'not necessary' solution. Fixing this requires either:
a) Finding and employing a team of sufficiently skilled people for sufficient time to solve the problem - let's say financing ten person-years, for a rough order of magnitude (I would hope it's somewhat less than ten, but one is clearly unrealistic, given that it entails catching up with a constantly moving target from a position quite a long way behind)
b) Waiting until either somebody else does this, or
c) Waiting until enough volunteer time goes in to provide the equivalent result.
Some combination of b and c is the most probable outcome, but we're still looking at a few years yet, at least. In comparison, buying new hardware is simple and relatively cheap.
That's not to say that it's the *best* solution, since clearly we'd all like to have working high-quality drivers for all the hardware we can buy, but saying "oh, x isn't necessary because you can just do y" is silly when x is a far easier option than y.
Posted Jan 28, 2013 18:44 UTC (Mon) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715)
Depends on the bug in question ... we don't have any details nor a bug report with details.
> a) Finding and employing a team of sufficiently skilled people for sufficient time to solve the problem - let's say financing ten person-years, for a rough order of magnitude..
No idea where you are getting this numbers from but if fixing it costs more then buying new hardware then sure go ahead and buy new hardware. To go back to the car analogy if fixing the car costs more then buying a new one I'd rather go and buy a new one.
Posted Jan 28, 2013 21:34 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341)
I don't think it is terribly controversial to say that 3D with Nouveau is less than super-stable. The driver is also blacklisted by Google Chromium for WebGL, for whatever that's worth (they seem to have a high bar though).
My solution for now is to use a desktop that exercises only the more mature, 2D parts of the graphics driver. I may give a GNOME shell / mutter based environment (i.e. Cinnamon) another go when I upgrade to F18, as it has a blacklist and (I gather) will fallback to soft-rendering (or can be made to).
Posted Jan 29, 2013 11:32 UTC (Tue) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715)
Posted Jan 29, 2013 14:18 UTC (Tue) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950)
I noticed it is related to system resources somehow. Meaning: if I don't open too many tabs in Firefox, it is way more stable.
Posted Jan 29, 2013 16:57 UTC (Tue) by Thanatopsis (guest, #14019)
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