Not logged in
Log in now
Create an account
Subscribe to LWN
LWN.net Weekly Edition for December 5, 2013
Deadline scheduling: coming soon?
LWN.net Weekly Edition for November 27, 2013
ACPI for ARM?
LWN.net Weekly Edition for November 21, 2013
Quotes of the week
Posted Jan 8, 2013 20:21 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
Posted Jan 8, 2013 20:36 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359)
Posted Jan 8, 2013 20:55 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
There are documented cases of sexist behaviour at CCC. The only way you can ignore them is to classify the victims as oversensitive, and then you have to come up with an argument for why women are so much more oversensitive than men are without compromising your claimed freedom from sexism.
Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:36 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359)
Actually, I don’t want to know. I don’t want to discuss on this endlessly. And feel free to not read the Quotes of the Week any more if you don’t like them. This is generally recommended, e.g. with Fanfic: don’t like, don’t read; but especially, don’t flame.
Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:39 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:44 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359)
I’ll now shut up and hack. I’ve got better to do than this. And I suggest you do, too. Just, dear LWN editor, keep us the quotes.
Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:51 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:58 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359)
You know, that sole statement of yours is enough to ridicule yourself. I used to take statements of yours, like the tytso thing, serious (although I did check the sources), but now, I cannot take anything you say serious any more.
“You've just all deluded yourselves into thinking it is.” is accusing me of lying and an unasked-for ad-hominem attack (not just at me but also at my friends, from a person hundreds of kilometres away who even CANNOT know). It just shows you’re… psychic, in lack of a better English word for what I wanted to say. Obsessed, maybe. I don’t even *want* to know why, but this says enough.
End of thread, now definitely. I see no reason to talk with you.
Posted Jan 8, 2013 22:14 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
I'm not calling you sexist. I'm not calling any of the people you associate with sexist. I'm saying that you (like everyone, including me) will engage in occasional acts of sexist behaviour, and unless you're able to see that this is what's happening it provides an environment where people feel safe in engaging in overtly sexist acts.
Posted Jan 9, 2013 12:03 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
If he's not seeing it, then there's no problem "over here" as he said, period. I can attest that it's the same in the circles I move (meaning: all the people I know in person).
Posted Jan 10, 2013 8:34 UTC (Thu) by ekj (subscriber, #1524)
Are you really saying that if some person does not see a problem, then this by itself is proof that no problem exists ?
It is true that sexism is far from constant, and I agree with the assessment of others that women clearly aren't rare or considered outsiders by default at CCC, I attended their camp in Berlin a few years back, and though women where a minority, they where not a tiny minority. There was also several women among those leading workshops and giving lectures, and I do think that overall the atmosphere was inclusive and welcoming.
But that's not to say that there was no problems, there sure was. Was there *less* of a problem than in many other locations and environments ? Yes ! Was there "no problem" ? No !
I'm pretty sure that's true globally. Levels of problems vary wildly, yes, but I don't think it's plausible that there's anywhere where it's a fair description to say "problem solved".
And I say that coming from one of the countries on the planet that consistently score top on equal rights.
Posted Jan 8, 2013 20:53 UTC (Tue) by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562)
And while I am not a DD I *certainly* welcome the diversity statement. Even if it were redundant "over here" - which I obviously don't think - I don't see the problem of making some implicit rules explicit.
Posted Jan 8, 2013 21:28 UTC (Tue) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359)
And I didn’t say I didn’t welcome the diversity statement; in fact, I asked those who didn’t vote to change and sign it, even though we think it implicit (no harm in explicitly stating the obvious, but a good reference/remember for later on).
I didn’t attend the congress and can only point out http://blog.fefe.de/?ts=ae1a50a0 for that, but I’ve attended lots of conferences myself, know lots of conference staff, and haven’t noticed things of the sort that’s quoted in e.g. mjg59’s articles (which, you might want to know, I also disagreed with). I’m just saying that you shouldn’t over-hype the problem (or just shout “sexism!” (or some other prestressed word) at every corner), and that one shouldn’t assume things are the same all over the world: Differentiate. There’s a difference (hah…) between discrimination and differentiation. Not all countries are equal. A man and a woman aren’t equal. Neither are my brothers and I. This, of course, doesn’t mean they have different rights, value, whatever, but equalising everything is bad. As is going into emotional (irrational; the planet-thread starting at http://ramblingfoo.blogspot.de/2012/12/faulty-logic-confu... was a good example, even with possibly bad taste, of why that's not good) modes.
As for talking to DDs, well, that just happened to happen in IRC at that time. I’m not even sure who exactly was part of the conversations. But that doesn’t disprove my point either.
Argh! This is not easy to express in English for me because I’m not sure which words or wording may be taboo or trigger for you all.
Maybe this is one of the reasons I can more easierly just chuckle-and-go-on on the “morons” quote. It’s no word of my native language, and I just know it as generic insult, not even its dictionary translation (although I maybe should look it up now), so it’s more abstract. Add to that the proverbial politeness of the Brits and the prudeness of the Americans (the whole “swear words” thing, which is to Germans like being from another galaxy – which is not to say we don’t regard language, but not like THAT, and it’s more than just the letters of a word) which may make them have a different threshold for sensing things as offensive, and you get two effects on it.
Copyright © 2013, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds