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The easy way outThe easy way outPosted Nov 6, 2012 9:25 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091)In reply to: Let’s Limit the Effect of Software Patents, Since We Can’t Eliminate Them (Wired) by Rudd-O Parent article: Let’s Limit the Effect of Software Patents, Since We Can’t Eliminate Them (Wired)
applying rules of property to non-property (intangibles) is illogical and obviously produces irrational, malevolent, and unintended resultsReally? What do you think money is? There are tangible pieces of paper around, but the bulk of it (more than 90% in any civilized country) is just numbers on some computer -- previously scribbles on pieces of paper. Do you think intangible money should be abolished too? Then why should the special marks in government-printed money be so special? So should we abolish all currencies? Exchanging physical goods was not a good system, I tell you. Rights of way, land and everything else would not last much, leaving us with just those physical goods we can carry around in our hands. When there is a problem, the easy way out is always to blame government, society, or any other humongous institution and yearn for life in the woods when we were happy. Guess what? We were not that happy. Countries without effective government are usually run by armed militias; civilized countries have strong governments that provide lots of services to their citizens. Yes, there are stupid and ridiculous laws too, but as a whole they tend to last less than good laws. The hard way out is to think about how to improve the situation, not losing the benefits of government, currency and society in general in the process. Richard is a great thinker in our time, and he has probably thought long about the patent problem. He has considered all possible quick ways out, and disregarded them. In the end his solution applies its weight right where it is needed: when distributing software. Let hardware makers fight their way out of the thickets they have built; but software distributors should be free to do their jobs without any possible retribution. This is more or less the situation now, but having an official declaration to this effect. would be great for our industry. I say, let us go for it!
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The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 10:17 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] What do you think money is? There are two types of money. I think you are mixing two different issues:
Think land ownership: what can be more tangible than piece of land? Yet when you "own" it in reality you have only intangible piece of paper (or even some numbers in some register somewhere without any paper whatsoever). As long as your paper is backed by something real (land, coal, whatever) everything is fine (historically money were backed with gold). When US declared default money stopped being coupons for tangible goods and become just numbers on some computer. This happened many times in the history of world (well, computers are new, "just some numbers" are not) and the end result is always the same. Do you think intangible money should be abolished too? It does not matter what I think. The "hallucinogen money" will be abolished. The question is not if, but when and how. Then why should the special marks in government-printed money be so special? Oh, that. The only difference: the mighty army is still ready to receive them and in turn is ready to punish anyone who does not like to receive them. As long as that's the case they'll stay more viable than an alternatives. So should we abolish all currencies? Why? There are thousands of more tangible replacements waiting in the wings. Of course till inevitable collapse of the currency (printed by private institution BTW) these replacement can not start actively spreading, but when that happens some of them will win. Of course there people who try to replace "hallucinogen money" with absolute unsubstantial money, but I doubt these will last long (again: it was tried many times in the history of world and such abominations typically last for a few years, often much less then year).
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 13:21 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] I don't usually read your messages, but this time I am going to answer once, out of concern for any confused minds that may be misled by your post. And I will do it using your favorite phrase: sorry but no.The Gold Standard is not the answer to anything. Neither is it a way to give money a tangible reality: the fact that one dollar or one euro can be exchanged for a (variable) amount of gold, should someone ever go to a Central Bank and request it, doesn't change the abstract nature of currencies. The value of things in tender can be matched to a certain amount of gold, but given that this amount fluctuates it is not any more tangible than a non-standard currency. Money is an abstract concept, such as beauty or kindness. The most important difference is that it can be quantified, and so is similar to other abstract notions such as height or temperature. It is also the base for a pyramid of concepts with an increasing degree of abstraction: accounts, bonds, insurance, stocks, derivatives and so on. That is how human societies build ideas; sometimes one of these concepts is seen as prejudicial and is regulated, such as the derivatives market, but they cannot be banned by decree. Not in a modern society. Trying to abolish intangible property (which was grandparent's original point) leads inevitably to abolishing currency and anything more abstract than exchanging physical goods one for one, even if one of these goods is actually a small amount of gold. Such slippery slope would be as fruitful to our software patent issue as trying to abolish temperature measurements to stop global heating.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 13:58 UTC (Tue) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]
The funny thing about trying to replace paper money with gold is that the value of gold is actually just as intangible as the value of the printed paper. Intrinsically gold is quite worthless. You cannot eat it. It is a poor building material because it's so soft. Some properties make it a good choice in special cases like in electronics. But these use cases are in no relation at all to the value we assign to gold. One can argue that gold is pretty much as abstract a currency as the pure numbers in use today.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 14:16 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] The funny thing about trying to replace paper money with gold is that the value of gold is actually just as intangible as the value of the printed paper. It's not the question of replacement of printed money with non-printed money. This is about replacement of "hallucinogen money" which are just numbers on some computer (which invariably leads to "irrational, malevolent, and unintended results") with something backed by tangible (which can be used as property even if indirectly). Some properties make it a good choice in special cases like in electronics. And some other properties return it back to forefront when yet-another-pyramid of paper money inevitably collapses. In reality gold has only three properties which are important in this case:
That's why after 1001th collapse of hallucinogen money people usually return back to gold.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 15:34 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (subscriber, #61155) [Link]
Hahaha "hallucinogen money"! I think that's spot-on. I'm going to steal that phrase. Bankers and politicians are a smart bunch: they got people to call green pieces of paper "money", and to call precious metals "funny money". It takes a smart group of people to get people to hallucinate in that way.
In any case, I'll plug Bitcoin here. While not a store of value like gold, it's at least non-inflationary and it's more convenient for trade than walking around with gold is. As a complement for precious metals and commodities, it certainly has a place in my mind.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 16:59 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Look up the disastrous economic history of Spain after the conquistadors sent their spoils back from South America before you call gold 'non-inflationary'. Gold is just as inflationary, or deflationary, as any other value store -- it is merely that the money supply is controlled by miners (or, in that case, conquerors), rather than central banks. If miners and conquerors had any interest in controlling the stability of the economy, I'd be happier with this. They don't.
The point of money is to substitute for other things in transactions. It is those other things that are the real store of value in any society, and their value is *intrinsically* precisely what humans attach to it. Value is always, necessarily, a human social construct (unless we discover intelligent aliens or build strong AIs). Gold is not magical: its value is also a social construct, but a less conveniently controllable one.
If you think your governments are so corrupt that they cannot be trusted to reliably maintain a stable money supply, then gold (or some other hard-to-control store of exchange value) is preferable to fiat money. Otherwise, fiat money is preferable. In developed countries at present, the latter is very definitely absolutely the case: most of them have independent central banks whose entire raison d'etre is to keep the economy ticking over. (These are the very same independent entities, like the Federal Reserve, that gold bugs like you are constantly damning. Economic cluelessness of stunning magnitude, IMNSHO. The problem with the Fed is not that it is too independent: it's that it is not independent *enough*.)
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 19:13 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Not to speak about the dangers of having the economy artificially limited by some external factor. US commitment (and Britain's return) to the gold standard did not help the Great depression; it helped fuel the world crisis by an artificial shortage of circulating money. Deflation and a stagnant economy for a decade were the consequences.Every time that a bank lends money, in effect it is creating money: as long as the bank is not forced to keep reserves that balance the loan, this "new money" will circulate and fuel the economy. There are some marginal economists (e.g. our own Huerta de Soto) that call for a 100% reserve for every loan; it is another variant of the "let us go back to the gold standard olden days" fallacy. Such a measure would almost certainly lead to a credit crunch of monstruous proportions and paralyze the economy immediately and for centuries. In fact, I sometimes think that the reason why Arab countries fell behind Europe in the 15th century, after having lead the world for a millenium, is that the Quram forbids lending money at interest; while Venetian lenders were inventing modern banking. But I digress...
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 19:37 UTC (Tue) by fsateler (subscriber, #65497) [Link] I am not familiar with Huerta de Soto's work, but full reserve backing has nothing to do with the gold standard or hard money delusions (despite the fact that austrian economists are strong proponents of both ideas). The idea behind full reserve banking is to prevent private money creation, which is inherently unstable. During a boom, private lenders will increase the money supply, and during recessions they contract it. Full reserve backing would seriously reduce this instability. Also, a recession (or even depression) after implementing full reserve banking need not be true.See the recent IMF paper on the so called Chicago Plan.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 21:12 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Sure, full reserve backing (thanks for supplying the correct term) and the gold standard are completely different. They are both however supposed to be solutions to economic instability and cyclic crises; supported by the same people; supposed to be a return to a golden age where they were common; and are both fringe theories widely discredited by the mainstream. Huerta de Soto even has a transition plan from the current situation to a 100% reserve backing with gold standard. Oh, and both policies would benefit rich people: those with the gold and who don't need loans. That is where the (no doubt entirely coincidental) similarities end.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:31 UTC (Tue) by fsateler (subscriber, #65497) [Link]
Well, some people support both, but other people support just the reserve requirements.
Full reserve banking has rarely been implemented, so I doubt it is a return to a golden age where they were common. It also can be argued that the ability to create money induces wealth appropriation by the rich (see the paper I linked). Finally, many Chicago economists (and apparently some economists in the IMF too) believe full reserve banking is a worthwhile idea, so it cannot be that far from the mainstream.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 19:20 UTC (Tue) by dashesy (subscriber, #74652) [Link]
Very true, even in Harry Potter precautions were in place to stop wizards from conjuring gold out of thin air. It seems even Voldemort left bankers independent enough, but again he did not need money.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 21:59 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (subscriber, #61155) [Link]
Bankers will fuck you up forrealz if you attempt to compete with them.
Look at how Bernard von NotHaus was called a "terrorist" and put in a cage, just because he minted precious metal coins that were starting to catch on. If someone doesn't accept that was a kangaroo trial... I don't know what is and I assume that person also believes rape is a Gift from God.
You've crossed the line there, mate. Posted Nov 7, 2012 10:24 UTC (Wed) by sdalley (subscriber, #18550) [Link]
You've crossed the line there, mate.
You've crossed the line there, mate. Posted Nov 7, 2012 14:08 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
He's clearly a very angry man. It's a shame he can't channel that anger into something useful.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 21:55 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (subscriber, #61155) [Link]
> Look up the disastrous economic history of Spain after the conquistadors sent their spoils back from South America before you call gold 'non-inflationary'. Gold is just as inflationary, or deflationary, as any other value store -- it is merely that the money supply is controlled by miners (or, in that case, conquerors), rather than central banks.
You'll get no argument from me here.
Still, it bears reminding that the price of gold in terms of commodities has remained quite stable over the centuries. NO other fiat currency has managed to do this feat. NONE.
In any case, while I do own some gold, my currency of choice is Bitcoin. It has none of the problems you cited, and I don't have a religious dogma that my money need have "intrinsic" value for it to be useful, so Bitcoin suits me.
The easy way out Posted Nov 7, 2012 12:13 UTC (Wed) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]
"my currency of choice is Bitcoin"
You MUST be kidding.
If a government like the US decided to destroy bitcoin it could do it tomorrow.
There are many ways someone with the resources of the US could wage economic war on bitcoin, the simplest just being to use the enormous computing and cryptanalysis capability they have to just destroy its value or make the market so volatile it's unusable.
The easy way out Posted Nov 7, 2012 21:17 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
Actually, it won't work because the number of bitcoins is limited by design (with about 25% of total coins already minted).
However, bitcoin markets are slowly destroying themselves just fine - they are a prime example of a deflationary spiral and why it's not good for economy.
The easy way out Posted Nov 9, 2012 11:03 UTC (Fri) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]
It'll absolutely work. The number may be limited by design, but someone with enough computing power could be the one to farm effectively *all* of them as they become available before anyone else gets the chance.
Or someone with enough computing power might cause bitcoin to ramp up their "work proof" hardness, to the point that normal people can't really compete.
And this is totally ignoring the possibility of finding any cryptographic flaws in the algorithms which could make fraud (or "theft" - don't know what you'd call it) easy.
The easy way out Posted Nov 9, 2012 15:42 UTC (Fri) by apoelstra (subscriber, #75205) [Link]
> Or someone with enough computing power might cause bitcoin to ramp up their "work proof" hardness, to the point that normal people can't really compete.
The bitcoin network is currently doing roughly 25 trillion (10^12) hashes per second. It is the most powerful computing network in the world, so somebody would need to invest a -lot- of money, and a -lot- of power for a -lot- of time to muck with it in any meaningful way.
> And this is totally ignoring the possibility of finding any cryptographic flaws in the algorithms which could make fraud (or "theft" - don't know what you'd call it) easy.
This would be very bad -- and not just for bitcoin, but for everything using ECC.
The easy way out Posted Nov 11, 2012 1:15 UTC (Sun) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]
"This would be very bad -- and not just for bitcoin, but for everything using ECC."
Even with theoretically perfect cryptography algorithms it is *very* difficult to design the surrounding mechanisms in a way that is immune to attack.
I mean even SSL/TLS protocol designers and implementers don't get it 100% right.
The easy way out Posted Nov 9, 2012 17:57 UTC (Fri) by jackb (subscriber, #41909) [Link] Or someone with enough computing power might cause bitcoin to ramp up their "work proof" hardness, to the point that normal people can't really compete."Normal people" don't have any need to solve blocks. Ramping up the difficulty has no effect at all on most Bitcoin users.
The easy way out Posted Nov 11, 2012 1:16 UTC (Sun) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]
"Normal people" here meaning anyone who isn't the US (or, I suppose, Chinese) government.
The easy way out Posted Nov 7, 2012 14:18 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
And we're back on topic! (Vaguely. At least it's computing-related.)
Bitcoin is a bad idea, for one reason that has nothing to do with its bizarre hyper-deflationary properties or its pyramid-scheme-like massive privileging of early adopters (who, in a world where Bitcoin becomes successful, do their mining before the supply of currency chokes off and everyone has to start using fractional Bitcoins for everything, the opposite of what happens to early adopters in most currency schemes and an excellent reason for late adopters to be suspicious of it).
It's a bad idea simply because it is utterly dependent on networked computers run by individuals remaining secure: an attacker can trivially steal your keys, and all Bitcoins controlled by them, and as so often with computer security, they only have to be lucky once. Worse yet, unlike with many other consequences of successful system compromises, restoring from backup and fixing the holes won't help you: the money is gone into your attacker's pockets. That this has happened repeatedly, even to major Bitcoin exchanges, suggests that the scheme is unusable by anyone who cares about the security of their money until such time as computer security improves radically.
Bank systems are a similar target in the real world, but at least there they have a non-computer-security-dependent monetary system to depend upon, and have legal guarantees and the like to ensure that if you are defrauded or the bank collapses you will be reimbursed, at least to sufficient degree as not to pauperize you.
I am rather surprised that, post-2008, anyone would consider a non-governmental monetary system worth the risk. Haven't depositor guarantee schemes proved their worth in the last few years? It's not even useful if you want to hide your transactions from the government: it's *much* more trackable than real-world money, and is trackable forever, though tying accounts to humans may be hard.
The easy way out Posted Nov 7, 2012 15:46 UTC (Wed) by apoelstra (subscriber, #75205) [Link]
> It's a bad idea simply because it is utterly dependent on networked computers run by individuals remaining secure: an attacker can trivially steal your keys, and all Bitcoins controlled by them, and as so often with computer security, they only have to be lucky once. Worse yet, unlike with many other consequences of successful system compromises, restoring from backup and fixing the holes won't help you: the money is gone into your attacker's pockets. That this has happened repeatedly, even to major Bitcoin exchanges, suggests that the scheme is unusable by anyone who cares about the security of their money until such time as computer security improves radically.
The major exchanges that this happened to, have indeed tightened up their security, and there hasn't been a major exchange theft in quite a while. There have been several fly-by-nights, but these have been the same sort of scams that have always existed. The security problem is here because people haven't figured out that they can treat bitcoin as a toy, or as a store of significant value, but -not- -both-, or they'll have a bad time.
The problems you list are still problems for real banks, who deal primarily in database currency. In fact, they have much, much more complexity to deal with because the problems that bitcoin solves cryptographically (transaction verification, double-spending) need to be solved by manual tracking and extensive audit trails. The difference is that the people responsible for bank security (at least in the backend) know what they're doing, while bitcoin security is implemented by hackers with too much free time, many of whom have no knowledge or interest in financial security.
(Eventually, I expect everyone will offload their security to some bank, and just walk around with a bitcoin debit card. So the world would look the same, just with a more efficient backing store.)
> I am rather surprised that, post-2008, anyone would consider a non-governmental monetary system worth the risk.
Interestingly, for many people, the 2008 crash is exactly why they would seek out a system in which the central bank's power is severely limited.
It's interesting that Bitcoin showed up in a thread about software patents, because regardless of your feelings on its politics or economics, it is a -highly- nonobvious and innovative system. But it is unemcumbered by patents, its inventor is unknown except to (maybe) one or two people, and yet it keeps trucking along happily. In fact, Bitcoin is routinely copied and modified in trivial ways, and the resulting systems collapse under their own weight because they do not have the developer power or first-mover advantage that Bitcoin does.
The easy way out Posted Nov 7, 2012 21:34 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
No, the problem is - you can't rob all money in a bank by changing a few numbers in its database. Once the bank discovers it, they'd simply ask the central bank (FRS, ECB, whatever) to roll back fraudulent transactions. That'd probably require quite a lot of phone calls, scrambling for audit trails, court orders - but it can be done.
A real life example - a couple years ago someone tried to do this trick with the Pension Fund of Russia. They've mounted a virus attack on PF's computing system, forcing it to be turned off. Then attackers used faked identity to impersonate a worker of Pension Fund to gain access to Russian Central Bank operations hall and used a forged paper payment order to transfer $30 millions to an account in a small private Russian bank. That payment went through successfully.
However, it was discovered the next morning. Payment was rolled back and police then easily tracked down the attackers.
With bitcoins once your money is stolen - that's it. You can't do anything at all. And even police won't help you, because chances are your attackers are in China or some other nice place with an unfriendly government.
The easy way out Posted Nov 7, 2012 22:15 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Not quite. Central banks are not universal transaction stores: they can't roll back arbitrary fraudulent transactions on demand, because they don't know about them. Generally, the fraudster gets away with frauds in the sense that the money is gone -- and too often gets away with it in the sense that the fraudster is never prosecuted -- and insurance, reimbursement schemes, or in extremis the taxpayer repays it or part of it (particularly if this is a massive thing affecting individual depositors). Fraudulent transactions in stock markets are rather different because the stock market *is* a transaction store, and there if detected early enough such transactions can be rolled back as you describe.
In the fraud you mention, the reason the central bank got involved was surely because they were acting as a clearinghouse in that instance, but they certainly do not in general. (Most ECB transactions are with central banks in member states: its recently-gained ability to recapitalize banks directly in extremis was extremely contentious.)
-- N., knew way too much about this stuff once and it was far too complicated to be believed, far more complicated than necessary. Now I work on dtrace which is ever so much simpler: all its complexity has a reason to exist, while banking complexity is mostly NIH and historical contingency :(
The easy way out Posted Nov 7, 2012 22:52 UTC (Wed) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
at the risk of continuing the offtopic discussion.
Most countries don't have a 'central bank' in the way that some people in this thread are talking about.
In the US, there is one entity that is allowed to create money, but all the banks do their own thing and interact with each other without involving this central entity, except in unusual situations. There is a Government entity that does audits of Banks to see if they are being run in what are considered 'sane' ways by the current policies (and a different Government entity that does audits of Credit Unions)
Backups and records that the other entities keep can do a lot to track down fraudulent transactions, but that is a matter of enlightend self interest (if an entity can't prove what happened, they are liable)
As for bitcoins maintaining a history of transactions forever, that seems to me like a very bad thing.
Imagine that a bitcoin that you get paid was used at some point in the past by a terrorist or druglord. The "asset forfeiture" laws say that governments (not just in the US) can grab any assets that they had. Now you can loose the bitcoin because it can be proved that it went through their hands X years and Y transactions ago.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 21:57 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (subscriber, #61155) [Link]
> If you think your governments are so corrupt that they cannot be trusted to reliably maintain a stable money supply, then gold (or some other hard-to-control store of exchange value) is preferable to fiat money.
Well, since these institutions have caused the democide of a quarter billion human beings starved or murdered by people acting under the delusion of "governments", excluding wars, only in the 20th century...
... I am a bit wary of trusting them to "maintain a stable money supply".
It's understandable, right?
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 15:36 UTC (Tue) by njs (guest, #40338) [Link] The "numbers on some computer" mentioned above have nothing to do with the debate about fiat versus commodity money. Even if you have a gold-backed currency, the vast majority of the money going around will still just be "numbers on some computer" unless you also eliminate fractional reserve banking. (It'd be interesting to see the "google ron paul!" crowd take this up as a rallying cry. Down with checking accounts!)It does seem odd that you can be so certain you understand how money ought to work without even being familiar with the concept of money supply.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 17:03 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Quite. If you want a truly stable money supply you have to eliminate not just checking/current accounts, but savings accounts too (M2), and also money market funds (M3), and go on to ban *everything* potentially substitutable for money. I'm not sure you'd have an economy left after you did that. And if you don't do that, keeping the monetary base fixed has no effect on the economy as a whole other than to annoy everyone.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 17:57 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
Here's a mental experiment for you. Imagine that the FRS instead of just putting money into database somewhere instead printed money certificates and then buried them in disused coal mines. Would that be any different from gold?
"Tangible" currency is an incredibly stupid idea, peddled be cretinous quacks of economics. The greatest achievement in economy (sadly ignored now) is that money in itself is a _tool_ that can be controlled.
The current Great Recession has shown time and time again that "hard money" approach just doesn't work. And trying to use it to make predictions fails miserably.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:11 UTC (Tue) by FranTaylor (guest, #80190) [Link]
WHAT A JOKE!
"turn to gold"
Yeah FOR THE KING'S RANSOM!!!!
For the COMMON EVERYDAY PERSON, gold is TOO FRAGILE.
The amount of gold necessary to purchase a meal or a pair of shoes is TINY TINY TINY
Do you REALLY ASSERT that ancient merchants pulled out their triple-beam balances when someone purchased some fresh fruit at the market?
The REAL currency is SPICES and FURS. MORE wars have been fought over SPICES and FURS than gold.
The easy way out Posted Nov 7, 2012 18:14 UTC (Wed) by mmeehan (subscriber, #72524) [Link]
fortune zippy
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 18:20 UTC (Tue) by tnoo (subscriber, #20427) [Link]
Well, not really. Gold that was mined is worth at least the costs of the mining operation. Also, it has technical and estetical value. The question rather is: why is gold mined? Most of this mined gold is put into underground tresors for protection, as if it wasn't safer inititially, spread out over huge volumes of rock.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 19:54 UTC (Tue) by fsateler (subscriber, #65497) [Link] Gold that was mined is worth at least the costs of the mining operation.Not true. Gold is worth what the gold market says it is worth. The costs of the mining operation only determine if the miner will make a profit or not. Worth and cost of production are very different things.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 21:48 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
If I build a 20km deep mine, expending a couple of trillions of dollars, would granite from this mine be valuable? I kinda doubt it.
Putting effort into doing useless stuff doesn't produce worth, per se.
The easy way out Posted Nov 7, 2012 11:54 UTC (Wed) by bosyber (subscriber, #84963) [Link]
Only if you manage to market and sell it it as having value, I'd say.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 18:51 UTC (Tue) by petrakis (subscriber, #39672) [Link]
Except that you can't print gold. Try reading "The Case for Gold: A Minority Report of the U.S. Gold Commission". I agree that is yet another token that can be used, just like fractional reserve currency, it's how you use it that matters. Had the federal reserve actually had the mandate to maintain the strength of the currency and held accountable we wouldn't live in the boom/bust economic bubble we're accustomed to today.
The biggest difference between the two is I can trade in my coupons for something *everyone agrees has value* and simultaneously deflate the currency. Trading your dollars for gold is literally a "no confidence" vote in your government, the ultimate check/balance; you can *opt out*. Were we to rework the coupon so that it was only callable by in very discrete terms (preventing a denial of currency attack) it would be perfectly suitable form of currency. You could choose to trade the pointer, or the actual metal. The U.S used Spanish Specie for quite some time until the government declared a monopoly on coinage.
Bimetallism never worked, and never will because you have a magical entity stating "X grams of silver can be exchanged for Y grams of gold". It just causes the metals to move to a market where the ratio is beneficial to the previously subordinate metal. As for the "price of gold", that would abate as soon as it became the "reserve currency" again, these things only had value *in direct comparison to worthless fiat currency*.
Once money has value again, this thing called "risk" actually starts to matter as the health of your institutions really matters, if it goes under, that money is gone. In today's world there's no moral hazard, as the banks know money isn't real and make as much as they can on the time/value of money (interest) before they crash and burn. Previously Banks could *call each other out* on the solvency of their notes, you bet the institutions were much stronger back when metals were dominant. Now, the federal reserve is designed to bail out banks, keeps a ratio of 9:1, where the "1" is considered "high powered money" which came from where exactly?
Finding out that Lehman brothers has only 2-3% on "reserve" is only outrageous to the layman who doesn't understand that the Federal government only requires *11%* on reserve for a bank to continue lending.
I'll take metals any day of the week over this scam.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 21:54 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
> Except that you can't print gold. Try reading "The Case for Gold: A Minority Report of the U.S. Gold Commission". I agree that is yet another token that can be used, just like fractional reserve currency, it's how you use it that matters. Had the federal reserve actually had the mandate to maintain the strength of the currency and held accountable we wouldn't live in the boom/bust economic bubble we're accustomed to today.
Dude, learn some history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_Un... Gold standard not only doesn't prevent recessions, but it robs government of instruments to fix them.
Want more proof? Read about the economy of Argentina. It did exactly what you preach - pegged its currency to dollar (i.e. supporting strength).
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:26 UTC (Tue) by petrakis (subscriber, #39672) [Link]
Actually, Fiat currency was in full force by then thanks to National Banking Act, the Federal reserve act just made it official, the great depression was the train wreck of which modern momentary policy is formed; "what not to do with fiat currency". I've been studying currency for years so I'm used to "common wisdom drive-bys". That's OK, if it makes you feel any better, your opinion is part of the "common wisdom" majority.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:35 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
> Actually, Fiat currency was in full force by then thanks to National Banking Act
[citation needed]
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:40 UTC (Tue) by petrakis (subscriber, #39672) [Link]
http://mises.org/books/caseforgold.pdf, p83
"The National Banking Acts destroyed the previously decentralized and fairly successful state banking system, and substituted a new,
e.g. the national banking act laid the foundation for the great depression.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:45 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (subscriber, #61155) [Link]
Citation provided! Excellent!
Now, in my experience, you must wait for Cyberax to insult you (he could call you "childish"), mock your arguments, change the subject, and tell you "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT HERE, WHY DON'T YOU JUST LEEEEEEAAAAAAAVEEEEEEEEEEEE".
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:48 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
>The National Banking Acts destroyed the previously decentralized and fairly successful state banking system
Easily refuted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_Un...
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 23:07 UTC (Tue) by petrakis (subscriber, #39672) [Link]
I didn't say depressions weren't possible under a metallic currency system. In fact, if you actually took the time to read the document I originally cited you'll find a dissection of many of these depressions and the following conclusion. The frequency and depth of these "depressions" were much lower under a metallic currency then that of a fiat currency. Depressions are "normal", like storms, they come and go, what makes them "economy killers" is the massive use of leverage which is only possible under the arbitrary fractional reserve system e.g. the great depression and the 2008 banking collapse.
The fallacy is that government can actually shield us from a depression actually occurring to begin with. Our currency is based as much on confidence these days as it is on GDP, probably more so.
In closing, I'm not here to win a flame war, I frankly don't care. My goal is to get just *one person* to think twice about business as usual wrt fiat currency and seek the truth for themselves.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 23:41 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
So there were depressions before the FRS. That's the fact, it's unarguable.
The pre-FRS banking system was on a verge of a catastrophic collapse, so that's why the NBA had been passed. Saying that NBA destroyed a "fairly successful" banking system is kinda sad.
>Depressions are "normal", like storms, they come and go, what makes them "economy killers" is the massive use of leverage which is only possible under the arbitrary fractional reserve system e.g. the great depression and the 2008 banking collapse.
The only two things that made it big:
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 15:25 UTC (Tue) by fsateler (subscriber, #65497) [Link] (historically money were backed with gold).Not true, please do some research. True, several countries had for a time currencies convertible to gold but that is not the historical norm, as several commodities were used. Moreover, even when the currency was physically made of gold or other commodity, it was not always convertible to the base commodity. Here are some facts for you:
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 18:49 UTC (Tue) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] And today it is often the case that the metal of the coin is worth more than the coin's value. ;-)
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:00 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (subscriber, #61155) [Link]
Profesor Von Brand? Es usted? Yo fui su asistente de cátedra en la USM en Guayaquil :-)
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 15:28 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (subscriber, #61155) [Link]
Look, the problem you're tackling is much larger and more complex than "money is just an intangible, are you crazy or something?" and I don't want to make this into a political conversation more than it already is.
What I can tell you is that I can't possibly "blame government". I can't blame something that literally doesn't exist to begin with. Government, like God, is just a belief that some entity bestows magical moral superpowers to certain people who allegedly represents the entity. What exists are *people doing things*, some under the influence of certain -- in my view, malevolent -- beliefs.
All I can do is stop believing in that belief. Sure, these people will still threaten me if I don't obey them, but it's much better, more liberating, and more factually correct to see them for what they are: dangerous people acting under the influence of malevolent beliefs.
I invite you to try and do the same.
Denial Posted Nov 6, 2012 16:20 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] You invite me to live in denial of human society and its main organizations, such as the ways of governing its communities? Thanks, but I actually prefer to live in a country where there is a government; nix explained it beautifully above. Even pillars of anarchy like Bakunin did not advocate the elimination of all organizations, but rather wanted to make all organizations voluntary (so that any party could rescind their membership at any time). I can sympathize with that view; not so much with believing that government is a collection of evil people.And I don't want to limit my thoughts to just "people doing things", specially if it means "evil people doing malevolent things". For that matter I would prefer to believe, with Feynman, that there are only jiggling atoms; at least it is an amusing view and can lead to interesting conclusions.
Denial Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:06 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (subscriber, #61155) [Link]
> Even pillars of anarchy like Bakunin did not advocate the elimination of all organizations
I didn't do that. You have misread me. No wonder you say things like:
> You invite me to live in denial of human society and its main organizations, such as the ways of governing its communities?
I never said such a thing, and this is loaded with condescension.
------------------------------------
You have made your intentions pretty clear. You don't use the written word to communicate with people and exchange ideas with them. You use it to try and shame / condescend / discredit ideas you can't conceive of (perhaps because you fear them, but you are unaware of the source of the fear). Since I've been reading this thread, this isn't the first comment where you've acted in this dishonest and manipulative way, and I'm sure it won't be the last (people who behave like you are repeat offenders par excellence).
Not that I would, but talking to a wall would be more productive -- at least the wall doesn't respond with snark. Accordingly, it would be a waste of time for me to try and engage you in a conversation about the topic.
Enjoy your belief system, safely protected by your reflexive snark. Good bye.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:15 UTC (Tue) by FranTaylor (guest, #80190) [Link]
"government doesn't exist"
You might as well say that "computers don't exist"
A government is a collection of people.
A computer is a collection of electronic parts.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:41 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (subscriber, #61155) [Link]
> A government is a collection of people.
Nah, I'm not persuaded that this is a valid definition of government. At best, it is incomplete, like saying "a human is a mammal". There's lots of mammals that aren't humans, just as there's lots of groups who aren't governments.
Now, had you said "Government is a group of people who believe they are entitled to maintain a monopoly of aggression in a certain geographical area", I would agree -- you would be correct.
And then I would tell you that this belief ("who believe they are entitled to maintain a monopoly of aggression") is the delusional part. It's actually a two-parter belief -- those who believe themselves to be part of "government" believe they are entitled to use violence against people who disobey them, and everyone else (the vast majority) believe the same thing (thereby legitimizing the actions of this sociopathic group you speak of).
Contrast that with most other groups of people: Bridge clubs (another type of group of people), for example, don't get together and partake in the delusion that they will invent rules for everyone else in their geographic region, and then violently punish those who disobey them. People doing business as "government" do.
That is the delusion.
Now, as you might be aware of, beliefs -- what distinguishes government from other groups -- don't exist in reality. While you can point to an assembled computer and say "this is a computer" and I can see it, you can't point to the belief, or anything in observable reality that embodies the belief, and say "that is government", really. You can show me buildings, you can show me people in costumes, you can show me guns and tanks. You can show me the *effects* of belief in government. But government itself? I'll believe you when you show me God first, instead of pointing me to a church and saying "there's God".
You may or may not disagree with me. I welcome corrections, so long as they are not manipulations or insults, like certain other individuals in this thread have attempted. After all, insulting or manipulating people only shows that you're scared of what you're reading.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 22:50 UTC (Tue) by jake (editor, #205) [Link]
Please, can we move discussion of political systems, the right or wrongness of government, and other similar topics to a more appropriate forum?
This thread is (or should be) about patents and RMS's thoughts thereon ...
thanks,
jake
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 23:10 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (subscriber, #61155) [Link]
Now this sounds like a more reasonable response.
I agree.
Everyone who is interested in having a conversation about political systems and whatnot, is cordially invited to http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism . Have a great day.
The easy way out Posted Nov 6, 2012 23:50 UTC (Tue) by FranTaylor (guest, #80190) [Link]
> After all, insulting or manipulating people only shows that you're scared of what you're reading.
ONLY?
"Nah, I'm not persuaded that this is a valid definition. At best, it is incomplete"
Hey lets talk about MANIPULATIVE WRITING:
"and then violently punish those who disobey them. People doing business as "government" do."
So when the government writes me out a parking ticket, they will violently punish me if I don't pay it?
Hey GUESS WHAT??? There is ALWAYS going to be a guy with the biggest stick and he is ALWAYS going to be in charge. The question is, does the guy with the biggest stick have absolute power or not? Government is the only way to distribute power AWAY from the guy with the biggest stick.
"so long as they are not manipulations or insults"
You've insulted ME by using HYPERBOLE in your response!
The easy way out Posted Nov 7, 2012 12:25 UTC (Wed) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]
This is probably the most insightful thing I've ever read that has random capitalized text.
Now if only certain people with incredibly naive political philosophies would read it and decide to go back to reddit.
The easy way out Posted Nov 8, 2012 9:30 UTC (Thu) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]
That is true for money - because money that can freely be created at (near) zero cost by anyone, clearly cannot work as currency.
But that's really a special case. If everyone freely copies dollars, the economy collapses, but if everyone freely copies Firefox-executables, it doesn't have quite the same effect.
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