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So what's the point of this?So what's the point of this?Posted Sep 14, 2012 21:03 UTC (Fri) by boog (subscriber, #30882)Parent article: Intel declares Clover Trail Atom processor a "no Linux" zone (ars technica)
Is there a pattern?
- secure boot complicates installing linux under many circumstances
Result: confusion. Linux runs on some hardware and not on other. Who benefits? The restriction to windows 8 must have cost microsoft money, so they think it is worthwhile.
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So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 14, 2012 21:48 UTC (Fri) by sdumitriu (subscriber, #56869) [Link]
But on the other hand, there are vastly more components that are only supported by Linux, even though not always following proper open source rules.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 14, 2012 23:37 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
If you want to run Linux then stop buying Windows hardware. Buy from somebody who actually supports Linux and is able to work professionally on getting Linux great hardware support.
That is really what every Linux serious user should of been doing from the beginning.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 1:01 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Power struggle? The one who pays the piper calls the tune. Sadly it'll not work as long as Linux has minuscule market share. It works well on server where Linux has decent market share, but it does not work as well on desktop or netbook where if you increase sales of your Windows-based system by 5% you'll get more money than if you'll increase sales of your Linux-based system two (or maybe even three) times.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 14:55 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
It's only a power struggle if the market is a zero-sum game, but it's not. Linux desktop is a nitch market, but even then there can be potential for a lot of money to be made.
The problem is really one of marketing and education at this point and it's a extremely tough problem. The majority of the Linux userbase seems to have unfortunately trained themselves that buying hardware and struggling to make it work properly for a few weeks is normal and acceptable.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 17, 2012 0:10 UTC (Mon) by rgmoore (subscriber, #75) [Link] The problem is that in many cases the hardware with good Linux support is more expensive than hardware with poor Linux support. People who try to save money by getting cheap hardware wind up paying in their time trying to get it to work properly. If the alternative is something very expensive or if Linux is a hobby and working through problems is part of the enjoyment, that may be a worthwhile approach. But a lot of us wind up going down that path either because the up-front cost of the cheaper hardware is obvious but the time spent getting it to work is not, or because we tend to overrate the value of money relative to the value of our time. To slightly modify a well known saying, you could say we're dollar wise and hour foolish.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 17, 2012 15:17 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Quite so. A good few friends of mine have bought new machines on a frequent basis but economized on each one to such a degree that the things are barely capable of running Windows and lock up frequently even then (Linux is almost unthinkable, lockups at boot are not rare on such hardware). That sort of cheap and nasty hardware is going to cause more problems than it solves no matter *what* OS you're running -- yet reliable machines aren't all that much more expensive. I'm not sure who these machines are targetted at -- surely not gamers, they want their games to work at least sometimes. Probably people who want to do a bit of light web browsing and little else.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 1:03 UTC (Sat) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]
Now, why the hell would I do that? I don't know what "Windows hardware" is, but what I do know is that putting a box together is considerably cheaper than buying something equivalent already assembled. And yes, with minimal preliminary research I manage to get Linux working on the result. What's the point of buying from somebody who "actually supports Linux"? Sparing myself half an hour of waiting while debian-installer finishes downloading the packages I want? Some kind of 'loyalty'? IDGI...
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 1:42 UTC (Sat) by Kit (guest, #55925) [Link]
"Windows hardware", as in hardware where the vendor only officially supports Windows (whether an individual part, or for a whole machine).
If you don't mind hardware vendors going out of their way to make it harder to use the hardware with Linux, then don't worry. If you'd prefer to encourage vendors to support Linux, though, then choose ones that do a good job supporting Linux.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 2:02 UTC (Sat) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]
Just how would vendors (say it, ASUS and AMD) deduce anything, let alone derive encouragement for something, from the fact that somebody bought a motherboard/CPU combo from a reseller?
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 2:31 UTC (Sat) by Kit (guest, #55925) [Link]
For OEMs (most people don't build their own notebooks, and notebooks dominate the consumer OEM market), by buying models that ship with Linux. A case like that would be fairly obvious for them if they keep track of /any/ sales data (if they don't, they likely won't be in business for too much longer anyways).
Obviously for parts it wouldn't be so explicit to the manufacturer, but you can still use your dollar to encourage ones that support Linux. By purchasing the products that are officially supported on Linux, as opposed to the ones that have no Linux support, you're rewarding the companies that have taken the effort. They may not know exactly why you picked that line over another, but you're at least encouraging the mindset that lead to that. At the same time, you're not rewarding one that doesn't do anything to help Linux.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 8:40 UTC (Sat) by deepfire (subscriber, #26138) [Link]
Voting with your wallet almost never works.
For it to work, you need strength in numbers, AND an ideologically motivated one at that.
Somehow, I doubt that the idea to punish MSFT-friendliness is going to spread like a virus. And the ideologically-motivated 0.00001% is humiliatingly far from getting onto any radars.
This is unrealistic.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 11:29 UTC (Sat) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
Works for Apple well enough that they can reliably find suppliers who give them hardware that *can* actually work, and the resources to dedicate to making it work 100%, even when they had been declared "dead".
Of course, they don't let you run osx on commodity hardware. Perhaps Linux should take a page from that book. Instead of having to convince people to do something in their long-term best intetest over a small amount of temporary convenience.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 14:13 UTC (Sat) by clump (subscriber, #27801) [Link]
I like your point, but I think Android is largely what you describe. It's not quite branded Linux, but the hardware is expected to work for its intended purpose.
I'd love some kind of high-quality, branded Linux notebook/netbook.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 15:54 UTC (Sat) by neiljerram (subscriber, #12005) [Link] I'd love some kind of high-quality, branded Linux notebook/netbook.What is stopping you? I'm typing this on a Lenovo B550 that I bought from http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/ two years ago. They're (apparently) still selling, and I doubt they're the only such vendor. My laptop has an Ubuntu sticker on it (as that's what it came with), and AFAIK has never run Windows.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 17:30 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
There are numerous places to buy Linux hardware.
There are lots of companies selling re-branded hardware from OEMs like you mentioned. However there are also lots of companies selling their own OEM brands that are more 'linux specific'.
System76 will probably provide my next laptop. Another popular one is ZaReason. There are others besides that. The 'dirty little secret' about laptops is that OEMs like Apple, Lenovo, Dell, and so on and so forth don't actually build their own systems.
The major laptop manufacturers (according to 2011 stats from wikipedia) are:
So how it works, generally speaking, is that:
Chipset manufacturers produce reference and developer designs. They also produce drivers for target operating systems and such things.
The ODMs usually have very little software or developer experience, however they are experts in mass production. They copy the reference hardware designs from chipset guys, but tweak them to make them more suitable for mass production. The produce lots of 'generic laptops' that OEMs then pick from.
OEMs then are the public faces that we all know and love. Dell, Lenovo, Apple, etc etc. The provide Q/A, deal with end user's crap, marketing, and that sort of thing... just generally the stuff that nobody else wants to deal with. They pick out designs that the ODMs provide then depending on what they want to do they will get custom plastic, different keyboards, screens, and/or tweak the designs for branding purposes and to suit the target demographic. All the manufacturing that OEMs really do nowadays would be to slap in memory, hard drives, and install the OS.
Some ODMs sell direct to public, but it's not something they are interested in doing as it's not going to be profitable for them... OEMs are not only better at this sort of thing, but are their partners.
Here is Quanta:
So any OEM that works with Quanta will probably use one of those 3 models, rebranded and tweaked for particular demographic, and then sell it to you.
Sager was one company that I was interested in for a long time. This was back when it really was impossible to find Linux systems. This was back before Intel started working with Linux, pre-centrino days. This is because you could purchase laptops pretty much straight from the ODM they used without Windows pre-installed. This made them somewhat cheaper and I used to be much more anti-Microsoft then I am now. Things have changed since then, of course. Now you can find lots of Linux hardware.
But it's still useful to look what they do and sell as mearly a reference since they are open about their relationships. I don't recommend buying from them:
They use Compal and Clevo. Clevo is the laptop manufacturer that makes gaming systems for Alienware and Voodoo PC among others.
The point of all of this is that if you choose to purchase from a Boutique Linux-specific OEM like System76 or Zareason (or any of the dozens of others) then you are going to get pretty much the same thing that you can get from any of the major OEMs like Dell or Lenovo. Everybody gets their stuff designed and built by the same guys. The difference is going to be a slightly higher price (smaller markets tend to do that) and, if the OEM is any good, vastly superior customer service for Linux users.
It's the Quality Assurance testing and customer support that really matters. The fact that somebody already went out and tried different systems to find the ones that work best, and then is able to test and improve drivers to the point were they work reliably is the difference. That is what really matters. This is the ONLY way you are going to get a Apple-like experience using Linux.
The downsides are less selection and somewhat higher prices, but not terribly.
Don't take any of this as recommendations on who you should purchase from as I am sure there are Linux OEMs that suck, but it is something to keep in mind. It really is MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to get good Linux hardware now then it ever was in the past.
It'll take a few years for tablets and smartphones (and similar mass comsumer 'embedded' devices) to catch up to laptops in terms of ODMs and OEMs and such, but it'll eventually happen. It will just take a couple more years, more or less. Things like EUFI and Microsoft paying money to have special relationships with hardware... embedded manufacturers like Nokia and whatnot are paranoid as hell and want to stop what happened to the PC market from happening to them, but all they can do is slow it down and it's expensive for them to fight progress.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 17:36 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
hrm. I just noticed Zareason's 'ZabTab'. Cyanogenmod by default. Very very cool.. they need to do a better job marketing it. :)
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 17, 2012 16:05 UTC (Mon) by ssam (subscriber, #46587) [Link]
+1 on the request for an LWN review.
also it would be nice if you could order it in the UK
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 17, 2012 18:22 UTC (Mon) by daniel (subscriber, #3181) [Link]
Check out endpcnoise:
http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/category=Value_PC...
Preinstalled Ubuntu on both Intel and AMD boxes, and the price drops a little vs Windows (they offer no OS for about $30 less). I have one of these and I would buy from them again. Not to mention, it's actually quiet.
Dell Sputnik? Posted Sep 15, 2012 16:00 UTC (Sat) by boog (subscriber, #30882) [Link] The Dell Sputnik may be what you are looking for, but I fear the delay in releasing it means Dell is going to hobble it in some way (cost, geographical availability, FreeDos...).
Dell Sputnik? Posted Sep 17, 2012 10:54 UTC (Mon) by willnewton (subscriber, #68395) [Link]
They have already made the beta US-only so you may be correct.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 20:52 UTC (Sat) by teknohog (guest, #70891) [Link]
> I'd love some kind of high-quality, branded Linux notebook/netbook.
Try running Windows on this:
http://www.tekmote.nl/epages/61504599.sf/nl_NL/?ObjectPat...
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 22:04 UTC (Sat) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]
Huh? And what, pray tell, will stop the sane people from removing the crap that "doesn't let you run on commodity hardware" if we went insane and done as you seem to be suggesting? I would certainly do just that, and no amount of marketing BS would convince me not to...
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 16, 2012 15:23 UTC (Sun) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
Nothing would stop the short-term temporary convenience faction from shorthanging our collective future. And that's where we are now.
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 16, 2012 18:15 UTC (Sun) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]
You know, I'm trying to decide whether we are being Poe'd or not. I dearly hope that we are - the other alternative is just too nauseating...
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 16, 2012 18:28 UTC (Sun) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
Perhaps you're mistaking sad wishful thinking for a realistic proposal?
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 16, 2012 18:53 UTC (Sun) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]
The sad realuzation is that, in the PC consumer market where price is king, there are no general computers. There are Windows computers and there are Mac computers. There are a subset of each of those that can run a current version of linux perfectly. There is another, much larger subset that can run Linux mostly, at the loss of some functionality. A subset of that subset will, in a future version of Linux, get closer to the first subset, some even achieving the full 100%. There are no consumer Linux PCs simply because the existance of the first subset, coupled with the Good Enough subset of the second subset as well as the subset of the second subset whih I previously mentioned. These lead to 1) an impoverished (compared to where they would be were you required to only buy Linux hardware) Linux consumer market unable to wield sufficient power in the odm market to establish a viable Linux hardware market and 2) the "Linux sucks!" reaction when Windows or Mac users do venture out and try Linux in the subset of the second subset which is the Not Good Enough subset.
(all the Linux OEMs can do is try to ensure the hardware they sell is in the first subset, at prices as close to competitive with volume Windows OEMs as they can get (or else their customers will just buy pc with Windiws pre-installed from someone else). Thus, not buying from a Linux vendor ensures an extremely lengthened, if ever successful, bootstrap phase in th establishment of th linux consumer pc market.)
So what's the point of this? Posted Sep 15, 2012 15:00 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
> Voting with your wallet almost never works.
It's the only voting that you get to do that actually matters.
AMS, too. It's Android, of course. Posted Sep 15, 2012 13:27 UTC (Sat) by boog (subscriber, #30882) [Link] AMD's Hondo will only support Windows 8 at launch.The target of MS's exclusion unsurprisingly appears to be Android: "However unlike Intel, Belt said AMD's software engineers are working on Linux support, though that doesn't necessarily mean Android." There is some hope that the MS strategy of buying market share by payments to Intel and AMD will be no more effective than with Nokia, especially as chip companies are unlikely to buy into the MS vision in the way Elop has at Nokia. However, the pollution of computing devices on which Linux can't be installed or won't work well will remain.
AMD, too. It's Android, of course. Posted Sep 15, 2012 15:56 UTC (Sat) by boog (subscriber, #30882) [Link]
I meant AMD not AMS (title), of course.
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