"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it." [LWN.net]

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 28, 2012 23:03 UTC (Tue) by rillian (subscriber, #11344)
In reply to: "Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it." by dskoll
Parent article: Look and feel lawsuits, the second time around

As one of those macbook-carrying conference attendees, I'd like to know what the alternatives are. I look around Linux and Free Software conferences at the sea of thinkpads, and it drives me crazy. I've not found a way to buy a thinkpad without also buying a proprietary operating system from Microsoft. How is that more supportive of Free Software goals?

Personally I don't intend to buy another Apple laptop, for the reasons you cite and many others. But I'd like to see more actual linux laptops and not just laptops, like mine, which sometimes run linux.

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"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 28, 2012 23:29 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I'd like to know what the alternatives are.

There are plenty of alternatives. My daughter, for example, has a really nice Toshiba ultrabook that runs Linux perfectly.

I've not found a way to buy a thinkpad without also buying a proprietary operating system from Microsoft. How is that more supportive of Free Software goals?

That is a problem. However, Microsoft makes a lot less from the sale of a Windows license than Apple does from the sale of a Macbook. Furthermore, currently Microsoft is a bit less evil than Apple, so you pick the lesser of the two evils.

There are some companies that sell actual Linux laptops (ZaReason, System76, Emperor Linux). I've bought from System76 in the past.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 29, 2012 3:54 UTC (Wed) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]

Zareason, Zareason, and Zareason. Can you tell I like them? No, I don't work for them, or any of that kind of thing. I just think they rock.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 29, 2012 12:51 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

System76 also.

The Linux community should support hardware vendors that support Linux.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 31, 2012 4:47 UTC (Fri) by rillian (subscriber, #11344) [Link]

> My daughter, for example, has a really nice Toshiba ultrabook that runs Linux perfectly.

That didn't come with a copy of Windows? That was the point I was making.

> Microsoft makes a lot less from the sale of a Windows license than Apple does from the sale of a Macbook.

That is a coherent argument, thanks. I'm not convinced that giving the balance of the difference to another company which refused support Linux (or even no OS) is that much better. But perhaps I'm just old; I still carry as much of a grudge against Windows as Apple.

I had seen that system76 will sell to Canada now, so perhaps I'll give them a try.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 31, 2012 20:22 UTC (Fri) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]

"However, Microsoft makes a lot less from the sale of a Windows license than Apple does from the sale of a Macbook."

On top of this, having a macbook means you spend your life going round as a walking Apple advert. Even if you're running linux on it.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 29, 2012 0:04 UTC (Wed) by apoelstra (subscriber, #75205) [Link]

>I've not found a way to buy a thinkpad without also buying a proprietary operating system from Microsoft. How is that more supportive of Free Software goals?

Microsoft subsidizes Lenovo in exchange for shipping Windows on every machine, so by buying a thinkpad you are sending only ~$40 to MS (which you can get back, I hear, if you're really offended by it). I bought my thinkpad back when Vista was the rage, so I grabbed Vista Basic, and probably gave even less.

So, it's not very good, but it's 20 or 30 times less than what you'd pay Apple if you bought one of their computers. Certainly, Microsoft could not run a business if these OEM sales were their only revenue.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 29, 2012 12:56 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]

Lenovo models are quite popular amongst vendors/resellers offering other operating systems pre-installed. I have the impression that this is because the resellers have access to the distribution chain, and maybe they can then get the systems before the Microsoft bundling is applied.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 29, 2012 1:18 UTC (Wed) by krake (subscriber, #55996) [Link]

"I've not found a way to buy a thinkpad without also buying a proprietary operating system from Microsoft."

So you are saying that you found a way to buy a macbook without also buying a proprietary operating system from Apple?

I would have expected that to be even harder.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 29, 2012 1:22 UTC (Wed) by paravoid (subscriber, #32869) [Link]

I have a Dell that I built to order it and never came with Windows. It's called the "n series", althought it's not a particular series, I've had a bunch of desktops & laptops like that. Amusingly, it comes with a FreeDOS CD :)

That's pretty standard and that's not because of Linux: there are companies (even small companies) that have Volume Keys for Windows and don't need to buy a Windows license with every laptop of theirs.

Note that at least Dell (and I think HP too) also sells laptops with Linux preinstalled. I've never found one that I liked, but it certainly is possible.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 29, 2012 12:53 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]

Some more vendors, some pre-installing a Free Software distribution, others just allowing you to buy a machine without an operating system.

OT: ThinkPad without OS

Posted Aug 29, 2012 9:02 UTC (Wed) by debacle (subscriber, #7114) [Link]

I bought three ThinkPad x220i for my company and for my private use last year, all without OS. Debian runs fine on them, however for running stable you need the kernel from backports.

In fact, only three computers I ever bought came with OS: Atari ST came with its OS in its ROM, a EEE PC had a horrible variant of Linux installed, and another Asus Netbook was infected with Windows7. I refused to accept the EULA and deleted it.

OT: ThinkPad without OS

Posted Aug 29, 2012 16:24 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> Asus Netbook was infected with Windows7. I refused to accept the EULA and deleted it.

I remember I missed the boot menu twice when nuking WIndows from my ASUS. Windows was quite confused the second time after I had three-finger saluted it during the "setup" phase even before the EULA.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 29, 2012 11:55 UTC (Wed) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]

Once every seven Lunar epicycles, the link at http://dell.com/ubuntu functions and will allow you to purchase a reasonably well made laptop at a low price. I've bought a few and have been happy with the results. Sadly at the moment the stars are not aligned correctly, and it just redirects to a Windows 7 advertisement.

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 31, 2012 6:29 UTC (Fri) by speedster1 (subscriber, #8143) [Link]

> Once every seven Lunar epicycles, the link at http://dell.com/ubuntu functions and will allow you to purchase a reasonably well made laptop at a low price. I've bought a few and have been happy with the results. Sadly at the moment the stars are not aligned correctly, and it just redirects to a Windows 7 advertisement.

Hopefully my Dell Inspiron 1420N laptop will last at least 2 more years then, because I bought it 5 years ago during one of those opportune moments and it has been a terrific portable workstation. Rarely booted to ubuntu, but the original ubuntu install was observed for driver selection giving me a head start in selecting the proper drivers for my gentoo kernels.

I eagerly read reports of Dell's Sputnik project, hoping that the initial ultrabook offering will be a smashing success so that the line can be expanded to include additional laptop models by the time I need a successor to this current gem of a laptop.

ZaReason would probably be my fallback, since I have used them for desktops which have also been very satisfactory. At the moment they don't have any laptops that are quite right for my needs (want matte display, non-ultrabook, non-Nvidia graphics).

"Indeed, we enthusiastically buy their hardware and port our systems to it."

Posted Aug 30, 2012 6:15 UTC (Thu) by HybridAU (subscriber, #85157) [Link]

System76 is a good alternative, even if Ubuntu is not your cup of tea at least it's FLOSS.

It's not a lot of help now but when I was buying my X220 they had an offer where you could buy a laptop with no OS, http://shop.lenovo.com/us/landing_pages/promos/thinkpad/t... it's not available now but I think it will be back it seems to come and go from time to time.

That said I ended up getting the one with Windows because for the exact same spec the Windows one was $200(US) cheaper. I almost bought it any way just to send a message that there is demand for no OS laptops. But in the end I decided that paying >20% more to *not* get something was not worth it.