The Desktop [LWN.net]

The Desktop

Posted Aug 15, 2012 16:04 UTC (Wed) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
In reply to: The Desktop by dskoll
Parent article: The GNOME project at 15

Hmm, I'm not sure what camera you're using, but my digital camera has roughly the same interface as my first 110 film camera from 25 years ago... point and press the button.

I'm using a DSLR. If you compare the interface of my Nikon D800 to an older, mechanical camera like a Nikon F2, and the interface is radically different. The mechanical cameras had a handful of controls- aperture, shutter speed, film speed, timed release, manual release, and some related to film handling- that were placed where they were because they were mechanically coupled to the internal devices of the camera. The newer digital cameras have most of the old controls (obviously not the ones for film handling) but have moved them because they're coupled electrically rather than mechanically. They've also added a whole bunch of new controls for things the older cameras didn't do- metering mode, focus mode, bracketing, picture review, etc.- and many of those new functions overload the basic shutter, aperture, and shutter release controls. There's also a menu system that lets you customize the interface and access less frequently used functions. If you set it up correctly, refuse to use most of the controls, and limit yourself to older lenses, you can dumb it down to the point that it functions pretty much like an older mechanical camera, but that's like saying that GNOME is just like a VT-100 because you can open a maximized terminal window and ignore the GUI completely.

Sure, you're right. My point is that most people think the "old" interface (ie, something Windows-XP-like or XFCE-like) is perfectly adequate for desktop PCs.

And I think they're a lot like the people who are pining for a digital version of the FM2. The way we use our desktops today is actually very different from the way we used them 10 or 20 years ago, but the control paradigm hasn't caught up. The number of tasks we manage today is much larger, and (especially) the number of things that can potentially interrupt us has increased radically. Our computers are a much more complex and confusing environment than they used to be, but the ability of our interfaces to protect us from that complexity hasn't really caught up.

I think a lot of the un-Unixy behavior of applications is a response to that. We now have web browsers that basically have their own built-in window managers and manage each page in a separate process. Why? Because people want to have dozens or hundreds of tabs open at once and our desktop environments can't deal with it. Our email apps have sprouted contact managers, calendars, to-do lists, and the like. Why? Because we can't build seamless apps out of mix-and-match separate specialist components well enough to make that a sensible approach. And we can't do those things because our desktops haven't kept up with the stuff we're trying to do with them. When we expand our desktops to keep up with the way we actually use them, we're also going to have to rethink the interface. I don't know if GNOME is going in the right direction, but they're right to think that what we have isn't good enough.

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The Desktop

Posted Aug 15, 2012 23:01 UTC (Wed) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]

> The way we use our desktops today is actually very different from the way we used them 10 or 20 years ago

Citation needed.

I am literally using the same interface today that I have been using since I adopted E16 11 years ago. I'm using the same theme with the same modules loaded and the same gkrellm. So, that's 10 years there. The only difference is that my resolution has gone up a lot.

20 years ago it was a bit different, but I was also on a radically different OS at the time; in 20 more years I plan to still use Linux or its spiritual successor.

I don't see any significant change in how we use desktop computers coming and I don't see one in the last decade. What we do with them may change but not how we do it.

> We now have web browsers that basically have their own built-in window managers and manage each page in a separate process. Why? Because people want to have dozens or hundreds of tabs open at once and our desktop environments can't deal with it.
FluxBox solved this problem with tabs at the WM level, it's just too bad there wasn't a spec everyone could implement. Every time an app tries to make the WM be a WM (e.g. GIMP) people ask why the app isn't being the WM. Maybe there's a lesson to be learned about what people want.

> Our email apps have sprouted contact managers, calendars, to-do lists, and the like. Why? Because we can't build seamless apps out of mix-and-match separate specialist components well enough to make that a sensible approach.
All attempts to build a system of such components has failed, GNOME's attempt included. KDE was more successful, but even they seem to have de-emphasized user-defined apps based on throwing kparts together. I'd love to see it, but I'm skeptical about how possible it is.

> When we expand our desktops to keep up with the way we actually use them, we're also going to have to rethink the interface. I don't know if GNOME is going in the right direction, but they're right to think that what we have isn't good enough.
Throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't helping, especially since there is not yet an agreement on what (if any) problems exist.

The Desktop

Posted Aug 16, 2012 6:16 UTC (Thu) by AndreE (subscriber, #60148) [Link]

When some engages in what is clearly opinion or conjecture, spouting "Citation Needed" (as if any relevant citation could ever be provided for such statements anyway) is churlish and unnecessary

The Desktop

Posted Aug 16, 2012 15:57 UTC (Thu) by arafel (subscriber, #18557) [Link]

> I am literally using the same interface today that I have been using since
> I adopted E16 11 years ago. I'm using the same theme with the same modules
> loaded and the same gkrellm. So, that's 10 years there. The only

I would respectfully suggest that your experience and approach is way, way outside the mainstream.

The Desktop

Posted Aug 17, 2012 14:46 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I would respectfully suggest that your experience and approach is way, way outside the mainstream.

That's your opinion. Most people I know who've been using desktop computers for a long time use them pretty much the same way today as they did 15 years ago.

The Desktop

Posted Aug 22, 2012 7:43 UTC (Wed) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953) [Link]

There are quite a few people using windows today that after receiving a new system reset the look and feel to "classic mode" which is essentially the interface of Windows 2000 which is close to 15 years old. There are lot of people that don't like change for the sake of change.

In my opinion the interface of something like Gnome2/KDE3/WindowsXP along with keyboard and mouse is the culmination of nearly 40 years of evolution of the computer interface towards the most efficient method of input/output, and processing along with information display. What's happening with Gnome3/Unity/Windows8 (and others) is trying to revise the PC interface to be that of a touch based information retrieval device not that much different than a TV (limited input, little control and restrictions how it's used).

It frankly doesn't make sense to me. I don't doubt that over time that as each interface revision fails miserably that they will move back towards a more optimal interface, but I don't ever see phones/tablets and PC's having the same input/use characteristics because they are used differently. Anyone that thinks the PC is going to be replaced by a tablet (or they should have the same interface) doesn't use a PC for real input/output/processing.

I do think there are improvements to be made in the PC interface, but thinking those improvements need to be in the avenue of touch based is IMO crazy. Finally, a small example, the Ribbon in recent version of MS Office has been shown to be easier for new users to learn and master and once learned offers a much more streamlined and quicker use. It's been demonstrated to be better in actual user studies but at the same time it's harder for existing users to use because they are used to the clunkier menu based interface yet you've never seen people complain so heavily about it. I myself did the same after being forced to use the new version at work. Having finally learned the interface I realize it's better (very painful to admit after complaining as much as I did), but the change was brutal on existing users. Without the monopoly MS wouldn't have been able to do it, even though it's better for new users, because of the damage it does to existing users workflow until learning it.