Copyrights [LWN.net]

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 18:09 UTC (Fri) by dwalters (guest, #4207) [Link]

> IBM's contributions to linux are neither transfers,
> nor assignments of ownership

Not strictly true. My understanding is that many contributors (including IBM) have assigned all copyright ownership rights to the FSF for some of their work. When they do that, they are no longer the legal owners of that work, so they can't file a misappropriation complaint for such code.

However, they haven't assigned the copyright of ALL their contributions to the FSF, so they can file a complaint pertaining to the contributions for which they still own the copyright (and they clearly have done so).

I believe this raises an interesting point. IBM thought they were doing the right thing by assigning the copyrights of (some of) their kernel contributions to the FSF. But the FSF does not have the same financial clout as IBM to pursue copyright infringement claims, so perhaps the community as a whole is better off if IBM hangs on to the copyright of their kernel contributions in future, since it really makes no difference in terms of how free the code is once it's released under the GPL, whether it's owned by FSF or IBM, right?

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 18:19 UTC (Fri) by hazelsct (guest, #3659) [Link]

Indeed -- and some individuals assign copyrights to the FSF because that organization has more financial/legal clout than the individual! How ironic that the tables turned here, in a sense...

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 18:30 UTC (Fri) by namaseit (guest, #13940) [Link]

Incorrect.
You do not lose your rights to the copyrights, you only put them under a
contract of distribution and modification.

"Releasing software under the GPL is not the same as releasing it into the
public domain. Authors retain their copyrights to software licensed under the
GPL. Even when authors assign their copyrights to someone else, such as to
the Free Software Foundation, the copyrights remain valid, but with the new
owner. Therefore, subsequent to termination of your permissions under the
GPL, you are in the unhappy position of violating the copyrights of the
software authors, if you continue to distribute their software. Under copyright
law, you are not allowed to distribute at all without their permission -- and they
have chosen to grant that permission only by means of the GPL."
www.groklaw.com

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 18:40 UTC (Fri) by Ross (subscriber, #4065) [Link]

You are confusing putting something under the GPL with assignment of copyright.

Assigning a copyright means giving another person or legal entity the rights granted under copyright law. It is true that the FSF has a copyright assignment form which also grants most of those rights back to the author. So the original author can use the work however they want including putting it under a different license than the GPL. But that is not the same as being the copyright holder.

The question is, does the assignment form somehow let the original author still file copyright infrigement lawsuits? If so how?

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 18:48 UTC (Fri) by namaseit (guest, #13940) [Link]

It is just a matter of whether whether or not the person or corporation in
question is in violation of the GPL. If they are in violation of the GPL then they
have lost the right to distribut the code and continuation of distributing the
code is against 'copyright law'. The GPL uses copyright law. Since the
author's still retain the right of that code and that copyright, they have the right
to pursue damages for the violation of the GPL. GPL is just an extension of the
already existing Copyright system. GPL is just a contract that dictates
distribution and modification rights. It does not change ownership of copyrights.

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 20:09 UTC (Fri) by Ross (subscriber, #4065) [Link]

I completely agree with you about the GPL. We are in violent agreement.

But what we were talking about a few posts earlier was not putting code
under the GPL, but instead signing a contract with the FSG to transfer
ownership of the copyrights from IBM to the FSF. I had read that IBM had
in fact done that with their kernel changes. I could have been wrong.

The only reason I brought it up is that under US law (to my knowledge and
of course IANAL), only a copyright holder can file a lawsuit for
copyright infringement.

The implication was that the FSF should have been filing the lawsuit not
IBM.

There are multiple reasons it didn't happen this way, and I was just curious which one it was:

a) Maybe IBM didn't transfer all of their kernel changes to the FSF
b) Maybe the FSF copyright assignment form somehow allows the original
author to still file lawsuits
c) Maybe IBM is for some reason able to file this counter-suit even
though they transferred the licenses because they were first sued by
the SCO Group
d) Something else that I haven't thought of :)

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 18:47 UTC (Fri) by fergal (subscriber, #602) [Link]

The point is that for some of their code they released it under the GPL and assigned the copyright to the FSF. Nobody is suggesting that you must assign your copyright when you GPL. However you can choose to assign it to another person or organisation.

Why would you do that? Because that other organisation may be in a much better position to defend your code than you are, they may already have expert lawyers and people to work full time on the case, whereas you may have a day job and a mortgage. The FSF can/will only defend code that has been assigned to them. So it makes sense to do this, unless you have plans to license your code under another license too.

The "funny" thing here is that IBM is probably much better able to defend their code than the FSF so perhaps they should GPL but not assign to the FSF in future, or better still, GPL, assign and give big wodges of cash to the FSF.

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 18:48 UTC (Fri) by LinuxLobbyist (guest, #6541) [Link]

Incorrect

That's a bit broad. ;-) The poster you're responding to was talking about copyright assignments. I don't think anyone here is saying that by licensing your own code under the GPL, you lose rights to your own code. It is only by transferring the actual copyrights (and in the process, producing a sometimes useful paper trail) that you no longer 'own' the code. In those cases, you cannot file an infringment claim against anyone for the code you no longer own. Only the new owner can. But this is completely separate from the GPL.

All that matters, though, is that it's clear that IBM has not, in fact, transferred copyrights of all of its Linux contributions to the FSF. Someone else said that it was only its contributions to the toolchain (S/390?) that have been assigned to the FSF. What's clear is that at least some code within the Linux kernel is IBM owned (copyrighted) and that's what the company is suing SCO over in this case.

I'm sure that Bruce Perens and others in the FLOSS world will agree with me here that this highly preferable to IBM's previous countersuit using patents as a weapon. With this and its response to HP's Linux indemnification ploy, IBM just earn huge points in my book for really getting Free Software.

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 19:06 UTC (Fri) by namaseit (guest, #13940) [Link]

I do see your point as well, mine is just the as of that quote from groklaw above. I see it that even though you have assigned your copyright to FSF that in the event of breach of contract (GPL) that the auther may still pursue damages. Which I was replying to , "When they do that, they are no longer the legal owners of that work, so they can't file a misappropriation complaint for such code."

From what groklaw stated, the author's do not lose that copyright.
"Releasing software under the GPL is not the same as releasing it into the public domain. Authors retain their copyrights to software licensed under the GPL. Even when authors assign their copyrights to someone else, such as to the Free Software Foundation, the copyrights remain valid, but with the new owner. Therefore, subsequent to termination of your permissions under the GPL, you are in the unhappy position of violating the copyrights of the software authors, if you continue to distribute their software. Under copyright law, you are not allowed to distribute at all without their permission -- and they have chosen to grant that permission only by means of the GPL."

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 20:15 UTC (Fri) by Ross (subscriber, #4065) [Link]

Yes, but the text you are quoting is not talking about the situation you are talking about. It is talking about using the GPL. SCO had claimed
that Linux people were saying that the GPL forced the author to assign
copyrights. It doesn't. But of course we weren't saying the GPL did
that either.

SCO was confused about the requirements of the GPL, or at least pretended
to be confused about them.

The part of the Groklaw quote that does talk about assignments is only
saying that they don't destroy copyrights, only transfer them. That is
of course true, but not relevent to the issue of who can file lawsuits
after a copyright has been assigned to the FSF.

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 27, 2003 0:13 UTC (Sat) by dwalters (guest, #4207) [Link]

The Groklaw quote you mentioned:
you are in the unhappy position of violating the copyrights of the software author

is not 100% correct. More accurately, I believe it should read:
you are in the unhappy position of violating the copyrights of the copyright holder

Of course, most of the time, the author and the copyright holder are one and the same person.

Copyrights and GPL - perhaps IBM should hang on to copyrights in future

Posted Sep 26, 2003 20:28 UTC (Fri) by dwalters (guest, #4207) [Link]

> Incorrect.

I don't believe anything I said was incorrect. I believe I fully understand the GPL (well, at least I scored full marks on the GNU's Free Software Licensing Quiz :-), and I think I have a good grasp of copyright issues.

An author can (and many have) assign the copyright ownership of any work to another person or legal entity (such as the FSF). When you do this, you've essentially transferred all rights under copyright law to the recipient.

The point is that when a work is released under the GPL, it is just as free (as in freedom), and will always remain free, whoever holds the copyright.

However, it's only the legal copyright owner (not necessarily the same as the original author) who has rights under copyright law to sue infringers.

IBM and FSF work hand-in-glove on GPL enforcement

Posted Sep 26, 2003 19:32 UTC (Fri) by emk (subscriber, #1128) [Link]

Although you'd never guess it from listening to Stallman, the FSF is an extremely savvy and diplomatic organization, and it works closely with all sorts of people--free software developers, coporations, and IBM legal.

I'm sure that the decision to transfer copyrights from IBM to the FSF was made after very careful deliberation by very smart people.

IBM and FSF work hand-in-glove on GPL enforcement

Posted Sep 26, 2003 21:33 UTC (Fri) by donwaugaman (subscriber, #4214) [Link]

It didn't take that much deliberation, because gcc/binutils/glibc/etc. are part of the GNU project. As such, they will not accept code from anyone who has not given a copyright assigment for that code to the FSF[*]. If you want to contribute to any GNU project software, particularly core parts like the above, you either sign the assignment or don't contribute.

Linux, on the other hand, is not part of the GNU project, and so a copyright assignment is not necessary for Linus to roll your patch into his kernel. So IBM can keep copyright on its contributions, though they must be GPL licensed. Thus, IBM has standing to invoke the GPL against SCO (as does anyone else who has contributed to the kernel).

[*] except for the case of "trivial obvious" patches (e.g. spelling errors, misplaced semicolon, etc.) which they will bend the rules on. But if you're thinking of tacking on a new switch, or building a new optimization pass for a compiler, it's assign or don't contribute.