LWN.net Logo

such nastiness.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 2:27 UTC (Sun) by Company (guest, #57006)
In reply to: such nastiness. by slashdot
Parent article: Otte: staring into the abyss

You can't just ask users what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new.


(Log in to post comments)

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 3:02 UTC (Sun) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

Well, that statement can perhaps be true for new and innovative features.

But a lot of the issues are patterns that have been established for 10-20 years in the GUIs of Windows, GNOME 2, and others, and get dropped with no consideration of the obvious fact that everybody expects them and has muscle memory for them, and that they are often very good ideas.

Things like Ctrl-C/V/X doing copy/paste/cut (since OS/2 I think?), Alt-Tab switching between windows and not between application (since at least Windows 3.1 in 1992), non-global menu bars (since before Windows 3.1 in 1992), having a taskbar on the bottom (since Windows 95 in 1995), launching apps by clicking on bottom left or pressing the Win button (also Windows 95), a clock on bottom right (also Windows 95), the ability to search pressing the Windows key and typing (since Windows Vista in 2006), a tree view in the file manager (since before Windows 3.1 in 1992), a bookmarks bar in the browser (since at least Internet Explorer 4 in 1997) etc.

These are things that any desktop environment that targets people who were previously using Windows MUST have as an option, or you'll make an horrible impression right away.

Furthermore, since GNOME 3 was supposed to be an upgrade, breaking the assumptions that GNOME 2 users made was also utter folly (and you broke Alt-Tab, broke the window list, the clock, the menu, etc.).

Note that most people never experienced an abrupt change in desktop environment on the same device (since they always used Windows, which barely changed in the fundamental UI paradigm since Windows 95), so forcing them to accept them when switching to an obscure platform like Gnome with less than 1% market share is folly, they'll just say "WTF is this shit" and go back to Windows; there's no way most people are going to bother to learn GNOME 3 if takes a lot of effort without spending millions that GNOME doesn't have in creating marketing hype, or tying it to hardware.

So, it's for EXISTING features that you must ask users (and actually there's no need to ask, just don't mess with them...), but you can definitely freely invent new optional stuff, and in fact if you manage some "killer improvement" that's fantastic.

Also, it's obviously OK to enhance existing features, as long as when the users performs some action, he gets a result which is recognizably similar to what the old version did (e.g. he presses Alt-Tab and gets some sort of display of all windows, and pressing Tab again rotates between them).

As an anecdote, personally I tried OSX as a Windows and later Linux user and found it horrible and unusable precisely because it breaks pretty much all of those conventions (including Ctrl+C for copy, they use Command+C instead, seriously!), and doesn't even have options to fix them; it was so terrible that I deleted my OSX VMware virtual machine in disgust rather than keeping it around in case I needed it.

That's an impression you don't want to make.

Conversely, a Windows user starting to use GNOME 2 is usually greeted with an horribly wasteful configuration using 2 horizontal panels (God only knows why distros usually shipped that as the default), but there at least it's very easy to remove the top panel and fix the bottom panel to be taller, and have a Gnome menu on left, window list in middle, and clock on right (although you need dockbarx or similar to emulate the Windows 7 taskbar).

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 3:28 UTC (Sun) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

But really, these things are so blindingly obvious that I'm not sure why there's even the need to state them, it's truly ridiculous how bad the situation has become.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 7:24 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

As trivially demonstrated by the negligible number of people who've moved from Linux to OS X.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 15:58 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Negligible? I don't think that word mens what you think it means.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 20:29 UTC (Sun) by krakensden (subscriber, #72039) [Link]

you missed the sarcasm...

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 21:24 UTC (Sun) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

I can't tell if Matthew is being sarcastic or not.

I know Gnome 3 caused me to buy a Mac (can't afford downtime when consulting, already burned by KDE). No idea how many others have done the same thing. Anyone have numbers?

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 30, 2012 3:43 UTC (Mon) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

I would assume he is being dryly sarcastic. I can understand though, I too switched to Mac OS X as my primary Unix desktop around 5 years ago from Linux. I was at a recent perl conference and it was maybe 50% Mac and 25% each for Windows and Ubuntu.

I can understand with GNOME 3 that they were trying to grab for the Brass Ring and get onto the next wave, Ubuntu is trying too as is Win8 (Mac OS X is succeeding). I've played with the latest Fedora and Ubuntu in VMs and I prefer Unity to Gnome Shell.

Switching to Apple

Posted Jul 31, 2012 15:08 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Buying a Mac is a pretty drastic response, and IMO is a sellout to everything the Free Software movement stands for.

There are other desktop environments besides the Big 2 and some of them are a pretty painless transition from GNOME 2.

Switching to Apple

Posted Jul 31, 2012 18:18 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

True, but there are bigger sellouts. In my mind, here's the continuum:

consoles - ipad/iphone - windows - mac - android - linuxes - gnewsense

I'm just trying to find a stable platform for work while staying as close to open source as I can. I have strong ideals but I can't bill for trying out desktop environments and tracking down display bugs.

When F15 dropped, I had some tight deadlines. After finding Gnome3 unusable on both my work computers (yes, bugs filed), I spent two vacation days trying, xfce, lxde, and E17. All failed for different reasons (often ssh-agent unreliability/conflicts, which we use heavily). Any suggestions on what else to try? KDE4 wasted a lot of time, not feeling real compelled to go back there.

I found myself out of time and out of options... I needed something that would work THAT DAY and the the Mac was a desperation move. It saved my job. I miss FFM but, other than that, I was productive within 1/2 hour of opening the box. Plus, I must say, the 13" Air is a phenomenal form factor. C'mon ultrabooks, catch up!

It's somewhat heartbreaking... I've used Linux for work since 1997 (with some forays into Solaris). When a Linux desktop environment appears that just works reliably and long term (c'mon Cinnamon!), I'll put Linux on this Air. Maybe in two years.

And, if Apple ever pulls a Gnome3, KDE4, or Windows8, I'll switch to something else.

Relative sellout-ness

Posted Jul 31, 2012 18:52 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Interesting continuum. I'm not sure that Windows is more of a sellout than Mac. I'd either reverse that or have them tied.

Any suggestions on what else to try?

I'm surprised XFCE failed for you... it works well for me and I have no issues with ssh-agent.

C'mon ultrabooks, catch up!

My daughter runs Debian on a Toshiba Satellite Z830 and I drool with envy...

Relative sellout-ness

Posted Jul 31, 2012 20:28 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Here's my XFCE story: https://lwn.net/Articles/474610/ :)

That post ends on a positive note but I never quite got it stable... I don't remember what the problem was, something related to running half XFCE services and half Gnome I'm sure.

Haven't tried .10 yet, maybe ssh-agent is fixed.

Relative sellout-ness

Posted Jul 31, 2012 20:36 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Actually, starting here might make more sense: https://lwn.net/Articles/474469/

Wow, was I thrashing. You can almost hear the panic in my voice. :)

Relative sellout-ness

Posted Aug 1, 2012 0:09 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Ah, OK. I guess we have different use-cases for desktop environments. I use XFCE to launch my web browser, my mail client, and as many xterms as I can decently run. :) Once those are up, I'm a command-line guy... I hardly use the "desktop" stuff for anything.

Relative sellout-ness

Posted Aug 1, 2012 0:26 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Those are pretty much my needs too... ssh-agent is command line.

I do require working sound, power manager, and network manager though.

Relative sellout-ness

Posted Aug 1, 2012 11:20 UTC (Wed) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

Suggestion: try kubuntu. Eliminate things you don't need, and you'll have a lean desktop environment, with working sound, power management, and network management. There are also many GOOD media-management apps (if you need them) like Amarok and Digikam, but if you don't need them, you also have lightweight viewers/players available. Konsole is fast, and I use YaKuake for my command-line needs (being able to switch to it with a hotkey is nice)... They are both tabbed, but I usually use tmux for the remote-ability, so I use the tabs only sporadically. People dislike kmail/kontact, but I have been using it with lots of email successfully for a long time now. I use VirtualBox a lot for my other-OS needs. And wine, too, via wine-ppa. I use mainly Chrome, but I have Firefox installed for fallback (and for having a second browser, going thru a different proxy setup).

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 18:42 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Apple has fairly strong commercial incentives to pitch OS-X just right. There is a feedback loop there: if Apple get things badly wrong, they will start to do badly on metrics that are quite clear to them.

The GNOME 2 transition was at least the product of substantial amount of user-interaction testing. There was a corporate body which had decided it needed to replace the desktop of its OS[1]. It spent a good bit of money on the HCI issues, and employing programmers to work on GNOME (e.g. accessibility was another of major interests, IIRC). There were objective reasons to believe that the GNOME 2 changes were good, and hence that it would succeed, regardless of any negative random comments.

GNOME 3 however does not appear to have any commercial feedback loop. It's not even clear there's any systematic, objective HCI testing being done to guide or validate the GNOME 3 changes - if there is, the results aren't being made public (at least some of the GNOME2 HCI testing was, at least in summary form).

It's possible RedHat might one day ship GNOME 3 and GNOME Shell in a supported workstation product. However, given the historical rate of releases of RedHats' supported Linux, that day is likely to be at least 5 years away.

So much of the GNOME 3 debate appears to be based on, at best, hand-waving (I'm being charitable): "GNOME 3 is awful", "Well I like it, nyah!", "All the users have gone to OS-X! That proves {GNOME changes are, change is not} an issue for them!". It would be really good to introduce some objective metrics back into things. Such as objective HCI testing, and, ideally, commercial pressure.

The worst course it to let things drift for 5 years or more, until RedHat ship GNOME 3 in a commercial product. That's a very very very long time in the computer world.

1. It still provided the old desktop alongside GNOME 2, you had a choice at login…

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 10:55 UTC (Sun) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link]

Since MacOS has increased its market share quite a lot lately it seems people are willing to adjust to changes.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 11:54 UTC (Sun) by slashdot (guest, #22014) [Link]

That's probably because people either decided to buy Mac hardware, got OS X and were too lazy/cheap/ignorant/uncaring to switch to Windows or Linux, or they switched to OSX with the strong initial belief that it would be an awesome OS, probably due to experience with Apple mobile devices or contact with Apple marketing and branding, or they simply want to be different from the mainstream at all costs, and either want a highly branded commercial product, or don't care enough about computers to replace Windows with a good OS like the leading Linux distributions.

With no easy way of widely preloading into hardware, no massive marketing budget, no tying with other products, a reputation for being uncool and user unfriendly, and desktop being mostly a "solved problem" which no real way to make dramatic improvements, no Linux desktop environment has any chance of gaining users that way.

The only sensible choice is to rely on the "free, open, and not screwing the customer" angle and make really sure to not disappoint the user at first, and THEN show him innovations or improvements, if any are present.

Of course GNOME is doing it totally wrong, since not only they immediately disappoint most users with absurd behavior, but the "open and not screwing with the user" advantage also goes completely out of the window, because while Microsoft and Apple reliably try to screw users for monetary gain where possible, but otherwise attempt to make users happy, the GNOME developers seem to seek to screw users for sadistic pleasure at all times, which is actually worse.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 13:36 UTC (Sun) by Company (guest, #57006) [Link]

So, lemme get this right.
You provide every feature that any user would want and you keep it that way forever. Unless of course, you're adding something that's new and innovative. Or you're targeting lazy/cheap/ignorant/uncaring users.

Did I get that right?

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 14:26 UTC (Sun) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]

In another part of this thread you considered the issue of why people have a "hate on something" and concluded that...

We must have seriously messed things up in the marketing phase of GNOME 3, I'm pretty sure of that.

The point being made about keeping features is most likely to be a reflection on the maturity of GNOME 2 and KDE 3 along with both projects' abandonment of that maturity in favour of less mature, experimental, arguably ill-informed approaches to user interface design.

In other words, we all had a good thing going and only needed to improve on it, but instead of doing that, whole projects re-oriented themselves towards imitating supposedly intimidating competitors like Windows Vista that turned out to be commercial failures, leaving those Free Software projects significantly disadvantaged.

I think you need to resist the temptation to classify criticism as "hate" and to restate criticism in terms of unreasonable demands that might not have been made in the first place.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 14:59 UTC (Sun) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

You provide every feature that any user would want and you keep it that way forever

No, not at all. You don't attempt to provide every feature that any user would want.

However, removing existing features is very bad and should only be done after extremely serious consideration and only if it results in a very substantial code cleanup or other benefit.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 22:54 UTC (Sun) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

cf what someone else said about Linus and linux ...

And yes I know linux has very recently deleted a large chunk of functionality BUT ... the rationale was very sensible. "Most of this stuff seems to have been broken for quite a while. If nobody can be bothered to fix it, why are we keeping it?".

As someone (same someone?) said "don't delete stuff that users care about" - obviously nobody cares about the stuff that's gone.

Cheers,
Wol

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 30, 2012 8:26 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Also "the hardware's never been available for systems built in the last decade and a half, since it is MCA-only, and we are not running a computer museum". Nobody is really going to want to Linux 3.5 on an IBM PS/2.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 30, 2012 13:19 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Removing support for obsolete hardware is fine; that's a valid reason to remove features.

Removing support for something in a desktop environment "just because" is not a good reason.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 31, 2012 22:41 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Speaking as a user of both Trinity and Emacs ('no features removed since 1976, except for old-style backquote'), I completely agree!

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 14:55 UTC (Sun) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

You can't just ask users what they want and then try to give that to them.

Oh really? I run a commercial software company and that's exactly how we operate.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 29, 2012 21:33 UTC (Sun) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

> You can't just ask users what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new.

Not sure about that. Ram your own ideas and preconceptions down your customers' throats and tell me how it goes.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 30, 2012 16:06 UTC (Mon) by Company (guest, #57006) [Link]

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 30, 2012 16:14 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

The discussion is over once someone stoops to lmgtfy.

Obviously the correct thing to do is in between: you can't do everything they ask, and you can't ignore them completely.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 31, 2012 1:05 UTC (Tue) by louie (subscriber, #3285) [Link]

The discussion is over once someone stoops to lmgtfy.

No, the discussion was over when you indicated you had no idea who said the quote, nor even any understanding of what the quote meant. It's only one of the most widely quoted statements about software design of the past 25 years (well, 23). If you didn't recognize it (or at least deeply understand the intuition behind it), your qualifications to participate in a discussion about UI design probably aren't quite where they should be.

Jobs quote

Posted Jul 31, 2012 2:34 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I confess, I didn't know it was a Jobs quote until I googled.

On the other hand, very, very few people can pull off what Steve Jobs pulled off. Most people who take the Jobs approach of dictating to their users produce garbage. Jobs just happened to be extremely gifted with a very deep understanding of the shiny things that non-technical users would like. He also understood that most people are happy to trade freedom for shiny things, which enabled the walled garden that Apple is becoming.

such nastiness.

Posted Jul 31, 2012 14:11 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Apologies for not recognizing those two sentences as a quote -- I guess I'm not enough of a Steve Jobs fanboi.

Want to hear how unqualified I am to be talking about UI? I didn't even known that's what the conversation was about. I'm pretty sure Slashdot was talking about DE project structure, leadership, roadmaps, and core functionality. You sure we're only talking UI?

And, while I'd tone down my first reply a little, I stand by what I said. Ignore your customers at your peril.

such nastiness.

Posted Aug 5, 2012 22:24 UTC (Sun) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Turns out, despite Jobs's hyperbole, even Apple listens to its customers. http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/how-apple-cond...

such nastiness.

Posted Aug 2, 2012 15:27 UTC (Thu) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

Yes, and while following that advice, be sure that you're a genius at the same level as Steve Jobs.

For the rest of us(TM), listening to the wishes of our customers and users is the way to go.

Copyright © 2013, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds