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Free Circuits FoundationFree Circuits FoundationPosted Jul 26, 2012 15:37 UTC (Thu) by jebba (✭ supporter ✭, #4439)In reply to: Free Circuits Foundation by khim Parent article: GNU Linux-libre 3.5-gnu: Free and a half
> This is their pretence, not reality
This is outright false.
There are many network cards that don't require blobs, for instance. In fact, most don't need need firmware uploaded to them. The list of kernel drivers far exceeds the list of firmware blobs in linux-firmware.
You don't need coreboot for them to distribute a free kernel. You don't need coreboot for them to distribute a free OS. You would need coreboot if you wanted your system to be 100% free, but that is separate from what they *distribute*.
In fact, if what you were saying is true, basically no one would be able to run the linux-libre kernel, yet people do. How do you reconcile that?
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Free Circuits Foundation Posted Jul 26, 2012 16:03 UTC (Thu) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]
> There are many network cards that don't require blobs, for instance. In fact, most don't need need firmware uploaded to them.
I think you're missing the point. These CPUs don't require microcode blobs. Their original microcode is stored in a ROM on the chip. You only need a blob if you want to _update_ the microcode. Similarly, most network cards have firmware in flash memory which _can_ be upgraded, but doesn't need to be uploaded after every reboot.
The FSF isn't removing the firmware itself (which wasn't included to begin with), or even the ability to load it. They're just censoring information about it from the kernel source and log messages, and thus preventing users from making an informed decision between keeping the non-free firmware/microcode they received with the device, or loading a different non-free firmware/microcode version which may work better. It would be rather destructive if anyone was actually forced to use their version; I certainly don't see how removing this information adds any value.
Free Circuits Foundation Posted Jul 26, 2012 16:30 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] There are many network cards that don't require blobs, for instance. No. There are many cards which come with blob preinstalled on flash. In fact most PCI and probably all PCI devices need some kind of blob to even be recognizable by the host. The list of kernel drivers far exceeds the list of firmware blobs in linux-firmware. What this has to do with anything? You would need coreboot if you wanted your system to be 100% free, but that is separate from what they *distribute*. Yes. But what exactly they are distributing? The answer is obvious: system which works just fine on "car with the hood welded shut" but refuses to work with a car where hood is open but mechanics under it is unknown. Is it really the direction they want to push the industry in? In fact, if what you were saying is true, basically no one would be able to run the linux-libre kernel, yet people do. How do you reconcile that? Have you actually read what I wrote? Any system chock-full of undecipherable binary blobs is fine - as long as said blobs come preinstalled. Only systems where said blob comes from the OS (and thus available for hacking even if not in source form) are excluded. IOW: if you take Linux-libre as a stance it says basically this: Moar blobs, we need moar! Make sure they are as hard to obtain and modify as possible, remove all hope of any access to the actual hardware - and we'll be happy. PS3 firmware of 200MiB of god knows what which is required to use the thing? Yes, please: this is what we want. As long as all the stuff which makes the hardware uncontrollable by user comes preinstalled - we are happy. We don't want to ever access it, it can't hack it at all - it's even better. FSF is still fighting windmills while world moved on and we have totally different problems WRT our ability to control the hardware we own.
Free Circuits Foundation Posted Jul 26, 2012 21:57 UTC (Thu) by jebba (✭ supporter ✭, #4439) [Link]
> PS3 firmware of 200MiB of god knows what which is required to use the thing? Yes, please: this is what we want.
Really? You think that is what they want? I don't get why firmware brings out the trolls so heavily. You are obviously shoving words in their mouth that are far, far, far from what their actual goals are.
Now, you can say RMS is going about it wrong. But this is the man that made a lot of this system we are using, and has made other major contributions (e.g with wikipedia). I'll take his path over yours, as you seem quite disingenous and he has produced *many significant* real-world results.
Free Circuits Foundation Posted Jul 27, 2012 8:10 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] You think that is what they want? This is what Linux-libre wants. Yes, FSF claims that PS3 is awful piece of shit, but… actions speak louder then words. And PS3 is better-supported target that other, freer systems as far as Linux-libre is concerned. I'll take his path over yours, as you seem quite disingenous and he has produced *many significant* real-world results. It's your choice. Only please, remind me what significant real-world results he produced WRT to OS kernel? AFICS he produced couple of miserable failures (HURD is technical failures while Linux-libre is ideological failure). In other ares, yes, RMS is formidable, in the area of OS kernel development… not so much.
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