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Vignatti: X on Wayland
Posted Jun 15, 2012 13:35 UTC (Fri) by cmm (guest, #81305)
Posted Jun 15, 2012 15:31 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304)
(This sort of diametric opposition, lack of agreement, and lack of clear right answers is entirely *why* X went in for 'mechanism, not policy' in the first place. I'm astonished that this has apparently been forgotten by the Wayland devs, given that some of them are the same people who came up with that policy for X. What has changed to make it a bad idea? Nothing, as far as I can tell, except for a desire for consistency whether or not people like the consistent result more than what they could have had otherwise.)
Posted Jun 15, 2012 16:27 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
Oh, and Wayland is most certainly the epitome of "mechanism, not policy" principle. The whole Wayland is just about 10k of clear C code with minimum of policy.
All the policy is encapsulated in the compositor. Right now the reference Weston compositor is not very modular, but nothing stops you from writing XMonad compositor for Wayland. In fact, it'll work even better than XMonad on X.
Posted Jun 15, 2012 17:09 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304)
If in return for this we got Linux on at least 50% of desktops? Yes, the world would be a better place.
Posted Jun 15, 2012 17:43 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333)
I want copy and paste that is not broken.
This is something that X and X applications has had 28 years to fix and there shows no sign in sight.
I will take 'lowest common denominator' over 'no common denominator' or whatever X has in regards to copy+paste/drag+drop.
Posted Jun 15, 2012 18:45 UTC (Fri) by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
Posted Jun 15, 2012 19:22 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
Posted Jun 15, 2012 19:30 UTC (Fri) by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
So, NOW I know why I haven't seen any problems. I use kde (and klipper) since before the the turn of the century. And anyway, I usually cut and paste between open apps. I didn't even *know* it was supposed to work otherwise... ;-)
Posted Jun 15, 2012 20:32 UTC (Fri) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106)
Posted Jun 15, 2012 21:16 UTC (Fri) by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
Posted Jun 16, 2012 9:51 UTC (Sat) by hongli (guest, #75254)
Posted Jun 18, 2012 10:15 UTC (Mon) by jku (subscriber, #42379)
Posted Jun 15, 2012 17:54 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
I'm not against crazy WMs like RatPoison or XMonad, but only when their existence does not require additional expense from other users.
Posted Jun 15, 2012 19:14 UTC (Fri) by marm (guest, #53705)
Anyway, I don't see the "all policy belongs to the window manager" model in X harming anybody, as opposed to systems which take choices away from the users.
Posted Jun 15, 2012 22:56 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
Posted Jun 18, 2012 21:06 UTC (Mon) by gidoca (subscriber, #62438)
Posted Jun 15, 2012 17:25 UTC (Fri) by viro (subscriber, #7872)
Posted Jun 15, 2012 19:51 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304)
(you see, this is the sort of elegant mockery which makes the world richer and teaches people something worth learning. If all mockery was of this quality, it would be a good thing. Unfortunately too much of it is a cover for letting off steam on random passers-by.)
Posted Jun 15, 2012 19:44 UTC (Fri) by cmm (guest, #81305)
as painful as it is for me, as an Awesome user, to claim: yes, it would probably be a much better place.
copy/paste would _work_. there would be some logic and theme in the window-management keyboard shortcuts. applications with long-standing window-management brokenness (try using OpenOffice under Awesome, for instance, or pretty much any Java GUI program) would be unthinkable. I would not have to suffer video tearing on my allegedly well-supported Intel graphics chip, because everyone's environment would be similar enough for this buggy behavior to be universally irritating (providing sufficient motivation for the developers of whatever responsible part to bloody well fix it already). stuff that actually matters would work better.
Posted Jun 15, 2012 19:54 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304)
You know how many people I've heard complain about this behaviour, outside this thread, in my entire life? Zero. Nobody other than geeks even *notices* it.
(As for the video tearing, well, that's something else I've never seen, and is not something that wiring policy into the graphics server would do -- or, rather, its existence is merely a consequence of the sort of transition -- to composition -- which is pretty much entirely impossible to implement if you nail lots of policy into the graphics server.)
Posted Jun 19, 2012 12:52 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576)
Well, there do still seem to be problems with copy/paste in my recent experience.
What I want:
1) any selected text can be pasted by middle-clicking
2) any selection can be copied using ctrl+c, and then that data can be pasted using ctrl+v (preferably without needing to leave the source application running, at least in the case of plain text)
2a) shift+insert does the same thing as ctrl+v
3) no amount of 1) can interfere with 2)
What I have:
All of those things happen usually, except when they don't. Frustratingly, the specific circumstances in which things don't work as expected seem so complex as to appear non-deterministic, so I haven't learned which things I should do/not do, nor can I reproduce the problem accurately enough to make a meaningful bug report.
Strictly speaking, X is not at fault here. There's something going wrong with Klipper, or KDE, or Qt, or GTK, or some specific combination thereof, but that's sort of the problem - if X specified a policy, there would be much less scope for those things to introduce bugs/incompatibilities/design disagreements.
That's not to say necessarily that the answer truly is to wire a lot of policy into the display server (for one thing, it's probably too late - any attempts to improve the situation by adding more policy risk creating *more* incompatible combinations), but there is a real issue there.
Posted Jun 19, 2012 20:31 UTC (Tue) by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
Posted Jun 20, 2012 12:43 UTC (Wed) by nye (guest, #51576)
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