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On mocking

By Jonathan Corbet
June 13, 2012
LWN's coverage from LinuxCon Japan included an article on a talk by Greg Kroah-Hartman on the kernel development process and, in particular, how to avoid making kernel subsystem maintainers grumpy. The article got a number of comments, almost all of which were inspired by its last sentence, which read: "Sometimes public mocking is part of the process and can actually help instill that pride more widely." Quite a few LWN readers clearly see the mocking of contributors as a problem; some accused LWN of making the problem worse. Perhaps it is a time for a look at the role of mocking in free software development discussions.

There can be no doubt that the environment in our mailing lists, IRC channels, bug trackers, and other electronic communication channels can be intimidating and off-putting. Some developers handle such environments without trouble; others go away unhappy, and, perhaps, never return. Awareness of this problem has grown over the last decade or two, and, as a general rule, things have gotten better. Even so, one need not look too hard to find examples of harsh messages from high-profile developers. One might well wonder why such behavior persists.

One possibility is that the meritocratic nature of our community makes us willing to tolerate any sort of behavior in the name of technical excellence. We need top-level developers and will put up with unpleasantness if they can produce the code; as Rusty Russell once put it: "If you didn’t run code written by assholes, your machine wouldn’t boot." We want our machines to boot, so we have to accept the developers who can make that happen. There is almost certainly some truth to this claim; it is the same calculation that leads us to accept unpleasant politicians, doctors, managers, and plumbers.

That said, there is evidence that, in our community, we are becoming less accepting of such behavior than we once were. The recent changes in the GNU C library project could be seen as an example.

In the conversation following the LinuxCon article, it was asserted that the kernel development community continues to grow. That was put forward as evidence that things can't be all that terribly bad—the community is doing enough things right that people still want to be a part of it. Once again, there must be some truth to that claim. But it is also hard to imagine that the community is so rich in developers that it need not worry about those who do not handle the environment well. In truth, the community does worry about those developers. Improving the environment in the mailing lists and beyond is a perennial kernel summit topic, and has been the focus of a lot of private communications as well. For all its fearsome reputation, certain counter-examples notwithstanding, linux-kernel is a far more pleasant place than it used to be.

That said, one can still run into trouble on a list like linux-kernel, or in many other places. The previous LWN conversation hinted at a plausible reason for much of the remaining hostility: the lack of reviewer bandwidth. Any project that reaches a certain size tends to discover that it has far more people posting code and asking questions than people who review that code and answer the questions. Review bandwidth tends to be the limiting resource that slows the development process as a whole. Projects can try to deal with this problem in a number of ways; they can, for example, force developers to perform reviews to get their own code merged, or they can simply slow their process to the rate their reviewers can handle. A third alternative—skipping the code review step—has also been tried, but it tends not to produce pleasing results.

In this situation, anything that wastes reviewer time and slows the process further is going to be unwelcome. Additionally, code review can be a time-consuming, tedious, and thankless task; code reviewers are, as a result, often grumpy. Mercurial maintainer Matt Mackall recently described it this way:

Being the project leader puts you in a role of being the defacto bad guy. Someone has to make decisions and some of those decisions are going to be "no". And many of those "no" decisions are ones that each wave of newcomers will question. So I spend lots of my time saying "no, compatiblity", "no, known bad idea", "no, design choice", "no, performance" at newcomers, and I _really don't enjoy it_. And because no one else enjoys it either, I end up doing the bulk of it. Burnout++, every day

Code reviewers often see the same kinds of problems over and over again, either because developers don't read the documentation, don't pay attention to previous discussions, or do not listen to the advice they have been given. When this happens, it is only human nature to strike out with strong words in the hope of making the irritation go away so that some real work can get done. This kind of response can be seen on the lists for a wide variety of projects.

Of course, one could just as easily argue that it's basic human nature to club one's neighbor with a rock to get at that nice stash of saber-toothed tiger bones in his cave. Anybody who has raised children understands how long it takes to learn to function properly in human society. So the fact that it's natural to strike out against mailing-list irritations does not mean that doing so is correct. Much of the time, it's the sort of impulse that we all (hopefully) learn to resist as we grow up.

As the free software development community has grown up, it has, indeed, learned to resist many of those impulses. We have become more adult, and more professional. Most communities tolerate far less unpleasant behavior than they once did; the kernel community can certainly be included in that group. For all the talk of public mocking, it does not actually happen all that often.

In the end, though, we live in a world that is not perfect. There will be people who come into our communication channels and call down impoliteness upon themselves; our world still contains trolls, people who feel entitled to free services from others, fanboys and fanatics who do not understand what "no" means, and those who simply refuse to listen. Some communities will respond to such people by trying to flame them off the list. Others might just quietly ban them from the list—an effective solution, but not necessarily a more civilized one. Not all who are flamed or mocked deserve it, but attempts to eliminate such behavior altogether risk being a cure that is worse than the disease.

In the end, there is value in having a sense of humor about things. It is not at all hard to find examples of developers being called morons or idiots on linux-kernel, but, much of the time, those developers are directing those words toward themselves. We are all morons sometimes; occasionally, we will get caught at it in public. Our community is usually quite accepting of those who understand when they've had one of their moments; it's those who refuse to listen who get the worst of it. Yes, we can do a lot better at dealing with each other respectfully, but, in the process, we should not close our community to real discussion, expect perfection, or lose track of how well we're doing now.


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On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 12:08 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I saw the subject line and thought 'something about software testing?'

Clearly I badly need a life outside software development.

I note that in my experience 'more professional' is a word used by managers to mean 'more humourless out of legal fear that someone will be offended by any use of humour whatsoever'. The free software community *has* become more professional in the strictly formal sense that more of us are being paid to hack -- it has also become notably less adversarial and more willing to do a bit of mentoring when necessary. It's less "professionalism" than it is simple human decency under fire.

On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 15:44 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

I saw the subject line and thought 'something about software testing?'
Me too! How sad. Also, an article on mock testing would be nice :)
The free software community *has* become more professional in the strictly formal sense that more of us are being paid to hack -- it has also become notably less adversarial and more willing to do a bit of mentoring when necessary.
In a comment to the original article I was shocked to see a kernel developer say that ignoring mail would appear unprofessional, while insulting the other part just "seemed to work". Talk about priority inversion...

On mocking

Posted Jun 20, 2012 14:08 UTC (Wed) by sitaram (subscriber, #5959) [Link]

Having dealt with people who ignore emails completely, I can honestly say there is nothing more insulting.

An actual insult is peanuts compared to that.

On mocking

Posted Jun 20, 2012 20:49 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

So ignoring obnoxious correspondents (who have been politely told off, only to come again with more demanding requests every time) achieves the objective of "insulting" them, without alienating the audience. Beautiful!

On mocking

Posted Jun 28, 2012 6:58 UTC (Thu) by gps (subscriber, #45638) [Link]

hah, me too. I was hoping for something on improvements in kernel unit testing. alas, one can dream...

On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 13:19 UTC (Thu) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link]

Playful teasing is also regarded as a sign that someone is properly a member of the group - you know that trash-talking that goes on between compuet games players and sports competitors? That's a positive use of mocking to let people know that they're valued.

The issue of smack talk being unprofessional is interesting. In the hacker circles of Unix's past, the desire to show your technical skills with a good patch was completely balance by a flaming if you got it completely wrong. That culture helped people raise up the quality of their work - both to show of technical prowess and to become part of the community valued to the point that they are mocked. There's a USA-nian view of what it is to act professionally which would object to that, but the raw fact remains that even within that professional culture, the in-group playful teasing still happens, in its own way.

K3n.

On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 13:35 UTC (Thu) by sumanah (guest, #59891) [Link]

It's interesting that you mention that sort of teasing-as-bonding. It takes a tremendous amount of trust and ease, or unspoken intracultural knowledge, to assume that someone else's mockery means "I like you, stick around." It's hard enough to get that message across *in person*; across timezones and cultures, and stripped down to Unicode, it's roulette.

I believe it was John Scalzi who said "the failure mode of clever is asshole." I remember that every time I write something subtly humorous in a wikitech-l email, remember that my developers' list has people from dozens of countries who mostly speak English as a second language, and either take out the joke or replace it with something more obvious and mark it with a ;-). I can make people laugh when I see them in person. I won't sacrifice some unknown contributor's morale for the sake of fulfilling a passing impulse to jest.

On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 21:55 UTC (Thu) by bfields (subscriber, #19510) [Link]

"Playful teasing is also regarded as a sign that someone is properly a member of the group"

I think that would accurately describe the situation if a) it was directed mainly at members of the group (whatever the group is), and b) there was usually some obvious attempt to be funny.

On a), it looks to me like it usually goes "down" the (semi-official) hierarchy, sometimes "sideways", but rarely up.

On b), the Quotes of the Week will indeed give some playful examples. But in a lot of cases the writer sounds genuinely angry and doesn't appear to be making much of an attempt to be funny.

On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 15:17 UTC (Thu) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]

This is not unique to FLOSS. See this recent blog post by a VC who explains why he just lies to enterpreneurs when giving feedback: http://acrowdedspace.com/its-all-about-team-but-ever-wond...

The key is that there's a pre-existing ecosystem and you're trying to get into it. It's got its rules, mechanics and politics. You come in with a slightly wrong angle (which is most likely the case) and you'll get an immediate "f*** off" type of reaction. Expecting those inside to be "reasonable" is likely unreasonable as they didn't get in by being nice guys, they got in by sticking around long enough or something else other than an "I'll be nice with everyone" attitude.

That said, I personnally find the [range of: "occasional" to "extensive"] use of off-hand labels by prominent developers simply counter-productive, especially for the casual/non-involved observer. Reading that so-and-so said that foo-bar's patch was "crap" or "bloated" gives me no information whatsoever. Maybe I'm just dense, but I, for one, would have no indication as to how to proceed next.

Then again, I can't recall the exact name of the guy, but apparently one of the people who worked with Jobs got into an argument with him regarding an idea Jobs didn't like. Apparently it got pretty heated and the guy asked Jobs something like: "Then what exactly do you want?" To which Jobs replied something like: "I'll tell you when I see it." That, at least, is pretty clear.

On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 16:33 UTC (Thu) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]

The level of mocking in the Linux community tends to discourage people from cultures where shame plays a large role. Compare the number of Asians (south or east) in proprietary software development, or those doing Linux ports that are never submitted upstream, to the number active in the open source community and you'll see clearly that there is a problem. Some of the same kernel developers who complain about all those little companies not working to upstream their code would shame those people so badly if they tried that many would feel compelled to leave the field altogether.

Well-run companies don't allow their employees to verbally brutalize their co-workers in the way that is common on the linux-kernel list, not because they are "politically correct" but because it hurts the bottom line to lose good people.

I've been around long enough not to be personally bothered, I have a thick skin. I take it as a badge of honor that Linus has personally insulted me more than once (in the GCC vs kernel wars). But by encouraging this style we sacrifice a number of good people who can't deal with it.

On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 17:48 UTC (Thu) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

OTOH, if someone can be easily shamed by flaws in their code, there is only two viable options: either the person deals with it or they cannot show their code to anyone (and therefore should refrain from working in FOSS)...

On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 19:31 UTC (Thu) by boudewijn (subscriber, #14185) [Link]

That's the fallacy: people aren't shamed when you point out what should be improved in their code and how they could do that. It is quite possible to do that in a way that doesn't shame people. You just need some decency. People are shamed when you call them retarded morons who should never have touched a keyboard.

On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 19:31 UTC (Thu) by alstrup (subscriber, #24272) [Link]

LWN has written about this many times. The articles are basically the same: Mockery comes from developers that are annoyed by someone, and to prevent that person from annoying them again, they mock them.

The articles imply that mocking is always bad behaviour. It is insensitive, exclusive and unfriendly to people and turns them away. The advise is always that the community should behave more politely and never mock people.

This is too simplistic a point of view, and the logical outcome will be a loss of not only culture, but also rationale thought.

The basic emotion behind all of this is anger. Anger is a basic emotion we are all born with. If someone, directly, directed at you alone, goes against something that is important to you in an attempt to hurt you, you will feel anger. The biological reason for this basic emotion is to build up energy to help you protect yourself against the threat.

Your heart rate increases, you might clench your fists, and you start to sweat.

However, even if you find yourself in that situation, it might not be that someone is out to get you. You might be experiencing irrational anger:
You might see a threat, but there is in fact none. The other party might simply not know that what they did went against your values, because they can not read your mind and know what values you have. The threat is simply only in your mind. Each person have different sensitivities.

If someone mocks you on the public mailing list, the person behind has no way of knowing whether you find that offensive or not, and they can not see your reaction. So when it happens, rather than immediately conclude that they are indeed out to offend you, consider whether they share your perspective on that kind of communication. You can even ask them directly in private mail: Are you trying to hurt me because I annoy you for some reason, or are you just being creative?

You might be surprised that maybe they value a good mocking. Some people find it hilarious both to send and receive creative outbursts of insults. Yes, it might be triggered because you annoyed them a bit, but the punishment is often intentionally way out of proportions. You can call these people freaks of nature, but the fact is that many of them are very intelligent, and also very friendly people.

So before you conclude that they response should trigger your anger, look for signs that point in the other direction.

What could be signs that people like a good mocking, and they are not as annoyed as you would think?

What could be a sign that people like anything?

If people do something again and again, maybe they enjoy it!

If they use very creative words and phrasings, they are probably not that upset, but just having a bit of fun.

So when find yourself under fire, take a moment and consider whether the person behind it really wanted to hurt you personally? Is there really a threat?

Is it rational or irrational anger you are feeling?

And for those that mock people, consider the same: If you are annoyed by someone, take a moment to figure out whether your anger is rational or irrational. Did the newbie intentionally want to waste your time, or were they just sloppy without realizing that you treasure your time a lot and have seen this thing 100 times before?

If so, make sure your mockery is completely out of proportion so it is clear to all that you are having a bit of fun after you wasted time with that piece of crap.

On mocking

Posted Jun 14, 2012 22:05 UTC (Thu) by bfields (subscriber, #19510) [Link]

"OTOH, if someone can be easily shamed by flaws in their code, there is only two viable options: either the person deals with it or they cannot show their code to anyone"

I agree. "Your patch is fundamentally wrong, please don't submit it again" can be difficult to take if it's something you've put a lot of work into. But you do just have to learn to deal with that and move on.

On the other hand, I don't see the point of "Your patch is fundamentally wrong, and you're stupid".

Sometimes the latter is actually an attempt to be nice--to soften the blow by aiming for humor in overstatement. I think that often fails at both counts, neither softening the blow nor being particularly funny. (Though there are exceptions.)

On mocking

Posted Jun 18, 2012 12:52 UTC (Mon) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> "Your patch is fundamentally wrong, please don't submit it again" can be difficult to take if it's something you've put a lot of work into.

Agreed. Many people will feel personally insulted even without an explicit ad hominem attack since they identify themselves to their work.

> On the other hand, I don't see the point of "Your patch is fundamentally wrong, and you're stupid".

BTW this is disagreement level zero on Paul Graham's scale

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 14, 2012 21:15 UTC (Thu) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]

The article mentions the "meritocratic nature of our community", but it's important to keep in mind that it's not entirely a meritocracy, unless "merit" includes a thick skin. But there are plenty of people with otherwise good merit that choose not to be associated with (much less risk being a target of) the abuse that is often thrown around.

That's not meritocracy. It sometimes verges on bully-ocracy.

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 15, 2012 9:59 UTC (Fri) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

> unless "merit" includes a thick skin.

Merit is only half of Meritocracy. The -cracy suffix that implies that it's the way in which a group of people organizes.

As with any group of people, there are often different and even conflicting interests. Resolving those conflicts requires a thick skin from time to time. The more valuable the work of the group for the parties at odds, the thicker the required skin, because conflict size is proportional to the height of the stakes.

So, for people with a thin skin it's better to play alone of find a group that does not see a lot of value in what they do.

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 15, 2012 14:06 UTC (Fri) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]

-cracy is "rule by", not about organization.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/-cracy

I reject entirely the notion that resolving conflicts requires the sort of verbal abuse that necessitates a "thick skin". Somehow people manage to resolve conflicts every day in other settings without such a requirement.

I also reject the implication that the free software community is doing more valuable work or has higher stakes involved than other settings where such abuse is not so common.

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 16, 2012 15:01 UTC (Sat) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

You're free to reject anything as much as you want, but it wont change human nature a bit.

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 16, 2012 15:52 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Because human nature *requires* that we resolve conflicts on mailing lists via mockery, putdowns and the occasional outright insult.

That seems curiously specific for human nature. Or perhaps you don't have the magical insight into human nature that you think you do, and in fact this is *not* an immutable aspect of the human condition?

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 16, 2012 20:37 UTC (Sat) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

I'm not sure any of us can be objective what is and is not fundamentally human nature. I'll go over and ask the dolphin research team sitting up in the treeblind next to my house that has been doing a decade long study on me and see if they've drawn any conclusions yet.

-jef

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 16, 2012 21:54 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

If you think those things studying you up in the trees are dolphins I suspect they have been adding psychoactive drugs to your food supply ;)

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 16, 2012 21:58 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Being less facetious for a moment, my original point was that it is foolish to state that something (in this case, mocking people on mailing lists) is "human nature" (and thus, by implication, unalterable) when we have numerous examples of social spheres in which mocking people is *not* considered acceptable. Therefore this is clearly not unalterable, and excusing it on those grounds is fallacious.

Lots of things are "human nature" including levels of intergroup violence which kill perhaps 40% of males. We have overcome that. Just because things are human nature does not mean they are necessarily either inevitable or praiseworthy. The naturalistic fallacy is still a fallacy.

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 16, 2012 23:13 UTC (Sat) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

I actually believe that mocking takes place in every profession, from construction worker to CEO, from nurse to research scientist.

the big difference is that it takes place the same way that all other communications in that profession take place, which is generally in private conversations.

With opensource development, almost all the communications that would be private in any other group, instead take place on public mailing lists, with thousands of people reading them, and with the mailing lists archived forever.

This means that comments that otherwise may have been heard by a half dozen people with no durable record instead are read by thousands and easily found by searching archives.

I'd even lay odds that the frequency of mocking is not too different, it's just that it's visibility is magnified by the openness of the communications.

for those who say that this would never be allowed in commercial development, think about every code and architectural discussion, including those by the water coolers. I think that if you are honest with yourself you will realize that there are a lot of comments that could be called 'mocking' that take place. the only difference is how "public" the mocking is.

In the situations where other professions would consider their communication "public" I'll agree that there isn't much that would be considered "mocking", but if you look at the equivalent situations in opensource development, you won't see any "mocking" either. The development mailing lists appear to be an exception, but you need to realize that they are just the otherwise private conversations made public.

for all those people who think that such things never take place among "respectable" professions, haven't you ever heard of the sometimes legendary levels of infighting and backbiting that takes place among such "professionals"? That's the same type of thing, just not as visible.

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 17, 2012 11:32 UTC (Sun) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

If you talk from experience, I feel sorry. I have worked in a lot of places, sometimes with mocking bosses and colleagues but most often not. I have learned much more when everyone was respectful with each other's work, so that is what I try to do with others.

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 17, 2012 22:44 UTC (Sun) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

it's not just the places where I work,

it may be called 'infighting' 'backbiting' or simply 'office politics', but negative comments on other people's work exist everywhere. This sort of thing is legendary in academia for example.

this isn't mutually exclusive with respecting the work of other people either.

In Linux development, some of Linus' harshest comments go to his most trusted lieutenants. this is the "you should have known better" or "I expected better from you" factor.

But let's take a look at the "horrible" culture of the Linux-Kernel mailing list.

how many "mocking" comments are made a month? I'd be surprised if there were more than a couple dozen. This is out of tens of thousands of messages.

are you really sure that negative comments in other fields are at at a ratio of less than 1 in 1000?

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 18, 2012 11:48 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

In Linux development, some of Linus' harshest comments go to his most trusted lieutenants. this is the "you should have known better" or "I expected better from you" factor.
This is normally fine, and harmless. If you've known someone for a long time, you generally *can* get away with that sort of thing -- the only possible harm from this is people being driven away by watching it, and this is unlikely if (as generally happens) the lieutenant laughs it off (modulo only language problems that may make that sort of implication hard for the third party to make).

The worrying thing is when people extend that treatment to people they haven't known for a long time. This is much less common on l-k than it was -- l-k is getting better -- and l-k is definitely not the worst place in the free software community for that sort of thing. It's just the largest and most visible.

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 18, 2012 8:58 UTC (Mon) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

I'm not claiming magical insight into human nature, or anything else for the matter. But you will be with me that when you deal with a big group of loosely related people, the probability of eventually having to deal with someone in an unfriendly way (even if it's just because he's had a bad day) approaches 1. "Refusing to accept" from some pretended higher moral ground is not going to solve the problem, but exacerbate it. A thick skin prevents a full scale conflict developing, and thus is a great thing to develop.

Don't confuse my words. I'm not saying that mockery is the best way to solve conflicts (go re-read my earlier posts), but it's useful sometimes. I know, I have been there many times. I did something stupid, and I was called stupid as I deserved. It's hard to swallow, specially for somebody as stubborn as myself, but in the end every time I learned a valuable lesson.

For these reasons I do not believe that mocking on somebody that deserves it is any kind of deadly sin. It's a tool to be used with caution like any other dangerous tool, and only with well defined purposes.

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 18, 2012 14:22 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Oh, agreed. But there's "I've had a bad day" and there's "I do this as a matter of course when I get slightly annoyed". l-k hackers are not saints even after they have won the Millennium Technology Prize, so nobody could expect perfect courtesy at all times -- but doing it routinely is not only unpleasant for everyone else but unpleasant for the mocker and probably also a sign of approaching burnout. (I dodged that bullet a couple of years ago.)

Then there is "this is my only visible way of interacting with other people", Joerg Schilling being the foremost exemplar of this approach. Note that as Joerg's unremittingly hostile attitude made clear, hostile approaches rarely lead to constructive outcomes when the people being hostiled at are major l-k figures -- I do wonder why anyone would expect them to lead to constructive outcomes in any other situation. Most people are less hostile than Joerg even when they're being nasty, and there is at least the possibility of movement: is that all it is?

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 15, 2012 14:26 UTC (Fri) by bfields (subscriber, #19510) [Link]

conflict size is proportional to the height of the stakes.

Hah, I would have guessed the inverse. It could be a related phenomenon to bike-shedding: sometimes the most bitter arguments occur when the stakes are very low.

On meritocracy

Posted Jun 16, 2012 15:44 UTC (Sat) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

Interest is relative. A bored person can make anything trivial the most important thing in _their_ life. Maybe you don't share their valuation of the matter, but that may be because you have more important things to do.

On mocking

Posted Jun 15, 2012 7:02 UTC (Fri) by vaurora (guest, #38407) [Link]

An interesting thought experiment: Assuming mocking is a functional part of the open source software development process, how would many people react if it were a woman doing the mocking? Would that attract a different response than if men are doing the mocking? Does this make women more or less likely than otherwise identical men to be influential leaders in this space? What does that mean for our theory of meritocracy?

On mocking

Posted Jun 15, 2012 12:16 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

[Note: I'm aware that I am very much teaching the sucking of eggs here. I know you know all this... but it is still worth mentioning.]

Given the all-too-common experience of women on the Internet to daring to say anything controversial at all (death threats at the mild end), I suspect an awful lot simply wouldn't dare to mock, no matter how assertive they were in real life -- even if the people being mocked were too nice to do that sort of thing, *and* all the onlookers were too nice, the threads are archived, so the bottom-feeders who trawl the Internet looking for that sort of thing could find it *years* later... and then the death and rape threats would start again. It is true that coding mockery would seem unlikely to produce the sort of tsunami of threats that comments seen by the bottom-feeders as 'uppity' in other spheres do, but until a year ago I'd have said the same about posts on knitting blogs (and I'd have been wrong).

I'd be inclined to say that no adversarial scheme can work for women on the Internet as long as people like that are around -- this is the fault of the bottom-feeders and their vile opinions, but nobody likes getting threats like that. I suspect only a legal framework robust enough that people like that no longer feel that they need fear no consequences would suffice to stop them -- but we *have* a legal framework banning the sending of death and rape threats: the problem currently seems to be that the police can't do anything useful when faced with thousands of them from all over the world. And in the absence of a single world government and police system I'm not sure how to fix this.

On mocking

Posted Jun 18, 2012 16:28 UTC (Mon) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

As interesting as this experiment seems, the (mental) outcome will largely tainted by prejudices. What about doing a real test?

On mocking

Posted Jun 18, 2012 17:50 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Well, I guess it'd sting quite a bit more for a lot of people.

Personally, I don't care. I've been on the receiving end of mocking, and while it's not always pretty, it certainly motivated me quite a lot.

On boots and assholes

Posted Jun 15, 2012 16:02 UTC (Fri) by mdz@debian.org (subscriber, #14112) [Link]

> "If you didn’t run code written by assholes, your machine wouldn’t boot."

This is easy to assert, because obviously if you rip out code which is in use in the kernel, your machine wouldn't boot. A more interesting question is:

If the kernel development community didn't tolerate assholes, would they still be able to produce a booting kernel?

I want to believe that the answer is yes.

On boots and assholes

Posted Jun 20, 2012 22:16 UTC (Wed) by renox (subscriber, #23785) [Link]

> If the kernel development community didn't tolerate assholes, would they still be able to produce a booting kernel?
> I want to believe that the answer is yes.

That's not an interesting question, the answer is of course yes but the interesting question is what would be the price (in development speed)?

The answer is: a **huge** price given than Linus himself has his "assholish moment" (and he is not the only one).

On boots and assholes

Posted Jun 20, 2012 23:38 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

There is a great difference between 'ban people who are assholes' (which has no enforcement mechanism and would never fly, though occasionally projects are forked or semi-forked for exactly this reason) and 'try not to be an asshole yourself because it puts other people off and creates a generally hostile atmosphere.'

The former is impractical and probably undesirable. The latter is just a matter of common courtesy. Everyone is grumpy sometimes -- but imagine what LWN would be like if the grumpy editor was *always* grumpy, rather than being his usual charming approachable self most of the time.

On boots and assholes

Posted Jun 21, 2012 1:14 UTC (Thu) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

It all really comes down to the Postel Principle - doesn't it?

Be conservative in what you send, liberal in what you accept.

It works for people as well as computers.

Of course there is a limit to liberality - protocol violations are still protocol violations. But we can be conservative in the error messages that we return.

On boots and assholes

Posted Jun 21, 2012 19:21 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Yeah, except that this is a situation in which potential receivers can also choose to silently disappear without the sender knowing, because they dislike the protocol violations that they see. And if we value actual receivers, that's a bad thing.

On boots and assholes

Posted Jun 21, 2012 8:33 UTC (Thu) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

Mailing-lists have a problem: They give everyone, and every post, a similar voice. As individuals, we can killfile consistently annoying posters, but that doesn't scale very well, and it gives false positives as well as false negatives. (consistently annoying people sometimes post good stuff - usually constructive people sometimes post annoying stuff)

Allowing people to moderate, and allowing (but not enforcing) people to give more visibility to higher moderated posts, help the signal-noise ratio a lot. If there's enough contributors, that is needed because reading it all is simply impractical, or even impossible.

On mocking

Posted Jun 17, 2012 2:03 UTC (Sun) by duffy (guest, #31787) [Link]

I just read a blog post on "The care and feeding of software engineers (or, why engineers are grumpy" [1] and I wonder if the points about appreciation towards the end aren't relevant here? I know a lot of FLOSS developers who've suffered burnout at various points and I do think it's partly due to an unnecessary amount of hostility. I also know folks who've tried to break into FLOSS who either gave up or didn't even try because of either they experienced or thought they'd experience rudeness and hostility. Maybe more visible appreciation for both the established developers and the potential recruits towards each other might help?

Another thing that stood out to me while reading this was its mention that there's some annoyance / bandwidth limitation on giving repetitious feedback on the same few issues / mistakes that crop up over and over again. I am sure it's already been considered and maybe even attempted, but it might help for the (understandably overwhelmed and probably time-starved to do something like this) developers to take note the next time they get a repeat mistake until they have a pretty full inventory of the issues that keep cropping up over and over again. Then, maybe post bounties or something for people who know what they're talking about to film screencast tutorials or write-ups to explain why doing x-and-y is the wrong approach or why z is a known bad solution. Maybe you could tell the person submitting an idea or code that you'll explain to them what the issue is thoroughly and kindly if they promise to take good notes and blog or screencast what you told them? Then, you could write some macros or something when responding to the issue when it inevitably comes up on list to point to the screencast / tutorial / etc automatically.

Nobody wants to be explaining the same thing over and over again - an engineer's time is better spent taking on new challenges and solving new problems. I think it is very understandable for someone to snark or otherwise lash out when stuck in this situation. But if you don't teach others to do what you already figured out how to do, it is going to be harder to find people to take over the work you're bored with so you can move on to new & exciting territory. So I think the teaching part is important. While aimed at sysadmins, I think Emily Gladstone Cole's talk from WiAC'12 this past week [2] is pretty relevant here.

[1] http://www.nczonline.net/blog/2012/06/12/the-care-and-fee...

[2] http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2012/06/13/wiac-12-staying-happ...

On mocking

Posted Jun 18, 2012 16:51 UTC (Mon) by davide.del.vento (guest, #59196) [Link]

Thanks for posting this, very worth reading

It is in the nature of email and mailing lists

Posted Jun 19, 2012 20:49 UTC (Tue) by martin.langhoff (subscriber, #61417) [Link]

I am very surprised that a thoughtful post by our esteemed editor on mailing list bullying does not mention the excellent work of Clay Shirky on the topic of mailing lists and flaming.

Clay points out that all active mailing lists lead to flaming, behaviour of a caliber that the same participants would not normally reach in face to face interactions. The email+mailing list medium has just the right amount of detachment, loss of emotional cues, and instant feedback.

For this to get better, our mailing list software needs to evolve. In the meantime, our project leaders need to know about this.

See http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_user.html

It is in the nature of email and mailing lists

Posted Jun 20, 2012 2:55 UTC (Wed) by duffy (guest, #31787) [Link]

After Linus' Nvidia video, maybe the medium is not the message after all ;)

It is in the nature of email and mailing lists

Posted Jun 20, 2012 15:10 UTC (Wed) by martin.langhoff (subscriber, #61417) [Link]

"Flaming is not just personal expression, it is a kind of performance, brought on in a social context." Clay Shirky dixit.

On praising

Posted Jun 22, 2012 15:24 UTC (Fri) by TRauMa (guest, #16483) [Link]

Being a mere guest and therefore coming late to the discussion, which means I'll largely talk to myself here, I nonetheless want to draw attention to the wonderful way our esteemed editor has with words. Notice how differently this discussion and the one the week before went, how much more constructive the arguments exchanged here are because the article provides such a good framework for it. *swoon*

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