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LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpyLinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpyPosted Jun 8, 2012 1:10 UTC (Fri) by gdt (subscriber, #6284)In reply to: LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy by dgm Parent article: LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy
And sometime public mocking is counter-productive. Here's an example from yesterday where a developer was mocked for no good purpose (the API documentation was out of date, and they were asking how it now worked). I wonder if the developer feels as motivated about contributing to the kernel as they did before that thread. The level of blame towards the developer rather than towards the patch which didn't update the documentation is interesting.
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LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 8, 2012 1:25 UTC (Fri) by gregkh (subscriber, #8) [Link]
That developer has an out-of-tree driver, and is trying to keep it out of
tree, so that others can not fix their bugs, so of course that will be difficult, and when that author blames other people for problems, wouldn't you respond in the same manner?
We are people, and people are messy, kernel developers have no requirement to always be civil, especially to people to purposefully do not participate in our development process, and then blame us for problems.
What would you do in that situation?
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 8, 2012 2:38 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
The problem with mocking or deriding someone in public is that you are likely to put off other genuinely interested people who might be scared that they will get treated badly for a sincere effort. This depends on the local culture at times. The answer isn't always to grow a thicker skin. Being more civil in general helps. Strong responses doesn't equate to impolite ones although some developers seem to treat it that way.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 8, 2012 4:50 UTC (Fri) by gregkh (subscriber, #8) [Link]
Sure, it would be nice if no one was ever mean in public, but we are talking about real people here, with feelings and foibles.
And read that whole thread, this person is obviously trying to work outside of the kernel developer community, they don't want to be involved, they only want validation that they were using some kernel code based on a documentation line, instead of reading the code itself.
So tell me, honestly, how would you respond in that kind of situation.
Now multiply that interaction by 400 every week.
Tell me how you would react then.
I think we all are doing a very good job given the load we all work under. If you think you can do better, please, help out, we can use it, and we welcome help. But criticizing without understanding the issues, environment, or situation surrounding a specific interaction, does nothing.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 8, 2012 19:41 UTC (Fri) by daglwn (subscriber, #65432) [Link]
> we are talking about real people here, with feelings and foibles.
Sure, but so what? That kind of behavior would not be tolerated in any workplace and it shouldn't be tolerated in any project that considers itself professional.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 8, 2012 19:58 UTC (Fri) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
how many workplaces would allow someone who goes out of their way to not pay the company anything to just walk in and start complaining about how the company does things?
or complaining that the add-on component that the outsider designed to plugin to the companies devices didn't work and demanded time from your senior engineers to help troubleshoot the outside product?
I guarantee you that if you did manage to corner senior people like this you wouldn't get thanks and help. At best you would get a polite brush-off (and instructions to pay for support)
so if you're going to start the "wouldn't be tolerated in the workplace" approach, realize that the initial request wouldn't be tolerated either
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 9, 2012 3:51 UTC (Sat) by daglwn (subscriber, #65432) [Link]
> At best you would get a polite brush-off (and instructions to pay for support)
Which is a perfectly fine response, and is what SHOULD happen on LKML.
There is a difference between saying "no" and publicly humiliating.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 11, 2012 5:48 UTC (Mon) by broonie (subscriber, #7078) [Link]
You also have to remember that some people do things like repeatedly ask for this sort of support, contribute nothing back and ignore advice that would help them avoid their problems (IIRC the referenced example may be a case where some of that applies).
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 11, 2012 16:44 UTC (Mon) by daglwn (subscriber, #65432) [Link]
At that point simply ignoring the poster is the best option.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 13, 2012 13:36 UTC (Wed) by broonie (subscriber, #7078) [Link]
Not really, there's several problems there. Completely ignore people and they'll just start complaining about that, and it does happen that people just need you to make it more obvious that there's a problem. It also means that it's less clear if you're not responding to things because you're just busy, if you're not responding to things because there are things that need to be corrected or if something else is going on.
It's just a generally bad way of correcting people's behavior.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 13, 2012 22:32 UTC (Wed) by nevets (subscriber, #11875) [Link]
Obviously you are not in this kind of situation.
I've been complimented on being one of the politest developers on LKML. I jump into heated flames all the time without resorting to insults, even when insults are directed at me.
But as I started working on more core kernel code, and becoming more responsible for code that was used by a wider audience, I started getting some of these crazy requests. I started with the polite responses, but that just seemed to bring more craziness my direction. Then the polite brush offs, which also attracted this crap. Ignoring it made me look unprofessional (not responding to email). Finally I resorted to some insulting feedback and that seemed to work.
I wasted my own time trying to be nice. One thing that you can get from Greg's report is that kernel developers have very limited time. Time is our most precious resource. If being polite wastes time, and a quick jab is more effective, then those quick jabs become the efficient process.
Sorry, but unfortunately it's just part of the job. Now, as we are still humans, some developers can go overboard with their insults. But just imagine getting email every day from people that don't make the effort to understand the process. When being a bit of a jerk back either makes them understand or just go away, and you get more work done, one tends on being that jerk.
If you're creative with your insult you might even get the added benefit of appearing on LWN's "Quote of the week" :-)
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 18, 2012 12:36 UTC (Mon) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]
> Ignoring it made me look unprofessional (not responding to email). Finally I resorted to some insulting feedback and that seemed to work.
Answering harassment or trolls is anything but professional. Ignoring harassment is definitely professional.
Whom do you trust to define what is professional versus not, the harassers?
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 18, 2012 15:05 UTC (Mon) by nevets (subscriber, #11875) [Link]
If it was harassment or troll I would definitely ignore it (or maybe just have a bit of fun with them too ;-) OK that wouldn't be professional, but it does relieve stress.
But it's usually people that expect something for nothing, or just do not listen to the responses you give. After a bit of explaining the same thing multiple times, and getting the same answer back without it going any further, is where one starts to get frustrated, and a quick jab can sometimes wake them up.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 18, 2012 16:36 UTC (Mon) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]
> After a bit of explaining the same thing multiple times, and getting the same answer back without it going any further,
This what I called "harassment". Please search/replace with a better term, thanks.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 8, 2012 19:59 UTC (Fri) by branden (subscriber, #7029) [Link]
Sounds like you've never, ever worked for a type-A manager.
You should watch the movie _Glengarry Glen Ross_ sometime.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 9, 2012 3:49 UTC (Sat) by daglwn (subscriber, #65432) [Link]
Why WOULD you work for such a manager?
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 12, 2012 12:38 UTC (Tue) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] A number of factors.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 9, 2012 1:52 UTC (Sat) by daniel (subscriber, #3181) [Link]
<quote>Sure, it would be nice if no one was ever mean in public, but we are talking about real people here, with feelings and foibles.</quote>
<br><br> Greg, so how can I avoid concluding from your comment that if a maintainer really feels like being mean then it is ok, because that is just a real person who really feels like being mean?
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 9, 2012 3:04 UTC (Sat) by gregkh (subscriber, #8) [Link]
You have got to be kidding me.
*plonk*
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 9, 2012 3:52 UTC (Sat) by daglwn (subscriber, #65432) [Link]
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question to me.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 9, 2012 4:57 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
I am not being critical. I am not talking about this specific situation or people either but I see a culture of pride in deriding people and I don't think that is a good thing to cultivate.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 13, 2012 22:47 UTC (Wed) by nevets (subscriber, #11875) [Link]
I don't see a culture in pride about mocking people. Yeah, Linus made that statement that it's fun to poke fun at people, and sometimes he does that too much. Although, I've been the butt of his insulting jokes before, but to be perfectly honest, he has that wit about him that he can insult you and you are still entertained by it. I now look forward to the next insult that Linus gives me, that I sometimes egg him on ;-)
But really, I've seen LKML actually become much more professional and less insulting. 8 years ago it was more vicious. I've seen people get insulted for no good reason, and the insults were quite nasty. Today, and even the example someone posted here, the insults come after a lot of back and forth where no progress is made, and the developer finally gets frustrated. You can even see the frustration in the insults.
Sometimes its just that the person on the other end isn't getting the point of the developer. Lots of miscommunication. That's natural. My point is that on the whole, kernel developers are pretty good to you if you just try to make an effort, and hide your ego. The last thing a developer wants is code coming from someone that says they know better than the developer. Sure, they may know more, but it works much better if you show them benchmarks and numbers to back your work, than just saying "I'm an expert in this".
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 9, 2012 19:13 UTC (Sat) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]
> Now multiply that interaction by 400 every week.
> > Tell me how you would react then.
The only sane way: like a robot.
Please just stop caring and send 400 pre-canned, polite, terse and relevant answers per week. I am sure you are well able of automating your email software so the time required to select and send such a pre-canned answer becomes negligible compared to the time actually spent reading the corresponding submission. Bonus: you save time for the interesting submissions & discussions.
Real people have feelings. Silencing them when needed is part of being a professional.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 10, 2012 2:08 UTC (Sun) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link] Exactly this. I was reading the list with a view to cleaning and submitting my years-old patches to add NAT for Cisco Sippy phones and for per-route TCP algorithm selection. What that exchange says to me is "it isn't worth the angst and that I'd be happier doing one of the 101 other things competing for time in my life".
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jun 8, 2012 18:37 UTC (Fri) by daglwn (subscriber, #65432) [Link]
I would be a professional and respond pretty much as you did here.
I would even throw in a "thank you" for finding a documentation bug.
LinuxCon Japan: Making kernel developers less grumpy Posted Jul 13, 2012 10:20 UTC (Fri) by dmk (subscriber, #50141) [Link]
<quote>Here's an example from yesterday where a developer was mocked for no good purpose </quote>
I guess, that message would have been better with the hint that if the documentation is wrong, the correct thing is to sent a patch to fix it, not to bitch about it.
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