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Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" releasedUbuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" releasedPosted Apr 27, 2012 8:38 UTC (Fri) by alecs1 (guest, #46699)In reply to: Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released by kragil Parent article: Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released
Although I find it strange, Unity is usable. But last time I tried, Klipper didn't work with it, pretty much a deal breaker. I don't have an Ubuntu to test if the bug is fixed, but I googled and found the bug was reported exactly one year ago: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-workspa... Reading that bug thread, I'm astonished at the Ubuntu folks' failure to take the last step to make the bug trackable, keep their user happy and thus pick the low hanging fruit:
Report the God Damn bug upstream on behalf of your user.
Some guy from Launchpad reacted very quickly and talked on IRC with a KDE developer about that bug, but came back and told the reporter: "go report the bug upstream" and closed the bug as invalid, when he could have spent 3 more minutes to report upstream. I don't want to offend the guy who tried to be helpful, but I find this sort of behaviour is irresponsible and amounts to shoving crap on your users' throat. The original reporter never reported back, and I would do the same if I would get this kind of crap.
An upgrading from Oneiric to Precise made the system unbootable. I think the room for improvement is huge, Ubuntu is a far cry from getting their act together.
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Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 8:48 UTC (Fri) by Mithrandir (subscriber, #3031) [Link]
Your sense of entitlement is staggering.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 9:57 UTC (Fri) by alecs1 (guest, #46699) [Link]
I was convinced one of the first comments would be the one about entitlement. I avoided writing the original post to prevent the self-unfulfilling prophecy.
The point stands: he spent some time to work on this, with 5 more minutes he could have achieved a lot more: give trackability to the bug, give the "customer" a sense that the vendor cares. None of my former employers would ever dream ignoring a client like that, even if bugs would linger for 10 years.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 12:06 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]
I thought that Launchpad was supposed to streamline bug reporting and act as a staging area for reports upstream, and I also thought that distributions were supposed to add value, not take it away.
As for the "entitlement" jibe, I guess the only response to that kind of narrow-minded thinking is for everyone to not bother reporting bugs at all and to just use something else instead. Yes, users can withdraw value from the interaction, too.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 8:51 UTC (Fri) by boudewijn (subscriber, #14185) [Link]
I'm not too surprised that a KDE utility like klipper has problems with Unity. Well, I've had reports of window management/menu issues with Krita as well.
Btw, your launchpad guy, Apachelogger, is also a KDE guy :-).
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 10:04 UTC (Fri) by alankila (subscriber, #47141) [Link]
And I think there's a general acceptance to something like that. Issues that affect a few users are not worth spending almost any time on.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted May 1, 2012 10:38 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]
>Issues that affect a few users are not worth spending almost any time on.
This is a good way to ensure that your software is only ever 90% done though. There will always be issues that affect only a few users since no two users are exactly the same, and usually so many of them that almost *all* users see a few of them.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted May 1, 2012 16:11 UTC (Tue) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]
This is kind of a warning to not bite off more than you can chew. Work on something small and well defined that can be done well rather than something expansive that you'll never have the resources to get past 90% done. When you are in that perpetual 90% state you have an advanced hobby and not a decent product.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 9:58 UTC (Fri) by Alterego (subscriber, #55989) [Link]
> came back and told the reporter: "go report the bug upstream" and closed the bug as invalid, when he could have spent 3 more minutes to report upstream
For me this behavior is frequent on ubuntu, i got several bug reports closed that way, without anything done, even when i provided test cases.
So i switched back to debian and RHEL and am happy worker again :)
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 11:19 UTC (Fri) by tpo (subscriber, #25713) [Link]
+1
(this is here because +1 doesn't qualify as a valid comment)
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 12:55 UTC (Fri) by sb (subscriber, #191) [Link]
That's because "+1" doesn't communicate anything more useful than "Me, too!" ever did.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted May 3, 2012 7:02 UTC (Thu) by ersi (subscriber, #64521) [Link]
Please discontinue making comments like these. ("+1!") They do not contribute to the comments/discussion of the article in any way, in at least my personal opinion.
I do however recognize the feeling of strongly agreeing with a comment from time to time. So you're not alone in that, I'll say. I do however see the comment section more like a mailing list, as in a reply-to-all way - and it's generally frowned upon to send messages without content :-)
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 17:34 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
> Report the God Damn bug upstream on behalf of your user.
What if the maintainer can't reproduce the issue or doesn't personally care about the issue nearly as much as you do[1]? The maintainer is not always the best person to forward things upstream. *You* care and have the data and are more useful on the upstream bug that the aforementioned maintainer. With the inability to tack other users onto the CC list in most bug trackers I've seen, both the maintainer and the user have to go to the bug anyways. A maintainer's time is not well spent playing messenger between upstream and users that have encountered some bug just because the user cares about a bug, yet not enough to talk directly with upstream.
That said, if the issue is a common one or the maintainer can provide more information because they either know the code well enough to tell or dug a little deeper, then they might be a better fit for filing upstream.
[1]They should care, but they don't have to care as much as users would like if it's some corner case.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 18:55 UTC (Fri) by alecs1 (guest, #46699) [Link]
Obviously, many things in life are a question of compromise. Yeah, he saved 5 minutes. Can someone claim that the decision the maintainer made was not a mistake? I think I stated my arguments on this particular bug completely enough to cover your examples.
I don't use Ubuntu (mainly because of poor upgradability, but while testing I did give up Unity precisely because of Klipper), but should I get treated like the reporter, I'll just leave, and not necessarily to Debian. And guess what, Ditto is a better replacement to Klipper and works OK on all Windows versions I tried. And Lyx will accept my bug report and donations from Windows too. Same will stand for Pidgin, Marble, Okular and QtCreator etc.
I'll stop, and also apologise Harald Sitter that I chose his bug to exemplify what I consider a costly mistake. I'd also report the bug and link it from Launchpad, but I have no idea if it reproduces.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 27, 2012 19:11 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
I hadn't looked at your case specifically. I was more responding to what seemed that the user should never have to forward bugs to upstream.
Looking at it, it was indeed handled poorly (overall). Instead of being closed as Invalid, it should probably have been kept open and some indication that there was an upstream bug to be tracked in it (I'm a Fedora maintainer and an RHBZ bug can be associated with other BZs). That way, when the upstream bug is fixed, it can be asked to be backported or whatever on the distro side. Of course, I don't know the Ubuntu bug life cycle, so maybe this was "valid" under that, but I'd say if that was the case, the lifecycle needs fixed.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 29, 2012 10:41 UTC (Sun) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link]
The op should report the bug. The lp person should have politely asked them to do so. Follow-ups to the upstream bug need to go to the original reporter, not the middleman.
Ubuntu 12.04 LTS "Precise Pangolin" released Posted Apr 29, 2012 14:46 UTC (Sun) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]
Even so, the lp bug shouldn't be marked as closed (and certainly not Invalid!). At least on BZ, CLOSED bugs need an extra step to search for, so keeping it open with a reference to the upstream bug is always better than closing the bug if it isn't actually fixed in Ubuntu. The reporter can come back to lp (though I would say that the maintainer should probably at least go CC'd on the upstream bug) and notify the maintainer that a fix is available. At that point the maintainer can decide whether it's important enough to backport or just wait for the next version.
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