| |||||||||||||
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new nameShuttleworth: Quality has a new namePosted Apr 24, 2012 18:24 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)In reply to: Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name by dbenamy Parent article: Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name
What use are the tests if the software you're testing is obsolete?
The 'we have a lot of tests' argument would have been good if systemd were a new project without any users. But right now systemd is used in pretty much all other major distributions (that had time for at least one release cycle after the systemd introduction).
Let's see: OpenSUSE uses it, Fedors uses it, Gentoo supports it, Debian supports it, RHEL will probably support it in the next release.
So the decision to use Upstart is purely political, not technical.
(Log in to post comments)
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 24, 2012 18:29 UTC (Tue) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
to be fair, don't Gentoo and Debian also support upstart?
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 24, 2012 18:33 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
Well, yes. Debian supports even KitchenSi^W^W GNU Hurd.
Gentoo doesn't really support upstart - it can be used in SysV compatibility mode, but it's not being actively advanced.
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 24, 2012 18:55 UTC (Tue) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]
is ANYONE using upstart native jobs to a large extent? Is Ubuntu? Or is Ubuntu still basically relying on sysV compatibility mode? Upstart introduced the concept of an event driven model....who is actively using that model to do anything interesting beyond implement runlevel equivalents.
Seriously I have no idea what the state of the art is. Is Ubuntu using upstart native job definitions for services like sshd or apache right now?
-jef
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 24, 2012 19:56 UTC (Tue) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
Well Fedora jumped whole hog into using systemd.
Pretty much all the default services have been moved over to using it natively and a significant portion of packaged services have also. It has made a significant impact on the character of the OS.
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 24, 2012 20:04 UTC (Tue) by tpo (subscriber, #25713) [Link] $ ls /etc/init|wc -l 59 $ lsb_release -r Release: 10.04 $ ls /etc/init|grep apache $ ls /etc/init|grep ssh ssh.conf $
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 24, 2012 20:04 UTC (Tue) by misc (subscriber, #73730) [Link]
It doesn't seems so for apache
http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/amd64/apache2.2-common...
but there is for ssh :
Upstart jobs are stored in /etc/init/. There is lots of them on a lucid lynx system :
But that's mostly replacement for the old /etc/rcS.d/ system.
In fact, the real issues is not "using upstart vs using systemd".
Switching to systemd is not just a upgrade when coming from upstart, since you cannot just replace upstart jobs by systemd jobs. So I can see why the Ubuntu team thought it would not be worth. They seems to have suffered from switching ( http://undacuvabrutha.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/why-ubuntu... ). So I can see why they prefer to focus their resources to more differentiating features than a init system.
I do not think this will be a huge burden on Canonical since Google also use it and they have enough people to take care of that.
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 24, 2012 21:33 UTC (Tue) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]
> Switching to systemd is not just a upgrade when coming from upstart, since you cannot just replace upstart jobs by systemd jobs.
systemd units for most interesting services have already been written, and writing them isn't even difficult. So I doubt that this would be a major problem.
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 24, 2012 22:42 UTC (Tue) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953) [Link]
This is the price Canonical pays for being the first to the party. They were the first (distro) to jump head first into upstart, now that the rest of the community is reworking upstart into systemd they are given the option to either convert and spend the resources twice or to hang on and handle the old code problem. That's the risk of being an early adopter. They're choosing the wrong option in my opinion, I agree with Pottering that they are going to be stuck maintaining a bunch of code like udev that they've never planned or budgeted for and will likely result in total stagnation for them.
If they are counting on Google pulling the weight they are making a mistake (unless they have intimate knowledge of Google's plans that is). Because IMO trusting Google to do anything is asking for trouble. They've got to be the most bi-polar company in existence. The only part of their business that's consistently the same is the advertising arm (and we don't see the internal on that so it could be equally troublesome as the rest). Personally I'm not sure how I would bet on a wager of Google throwing out all previous work and starting over in some radically different direction.
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 26, 2012 0:16 UTC (Thu) by mrons (subscriber, #1751) [Link]
> is ANYONE using upstart native jobs to a large extent?
What about RedHat 6?
In a strange twist, Redhat will need to support upstart for several years now.
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 26, 2012 0:27 UTC (Thu) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
Yep, if RHEL 6 uses upstart, RedHat will be supporting upstart for 7-10 years (possibly more). I didn't realize this.
this may impact the 'obvious' move to systemd in RHEL7, it depends on how disruptive this is to sysadmins and if RedHat is willing to change init packages twice in two releases.
I think that people assume that if something is in Fedora, it will be in the next RHEL. Even if Fedora is the testing ground for RHEL (something disputed by Fedora people regularly), there's still time for the test to fail (for some definition of fail)
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 26, 2012 1:11 UTC (Thu) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]
Im pretty sure RHEL is not making use of "native" jobs by default for much of the init scripts beyond early boot just as Fedora did.
Upstart was introduced in Fedora (just as it was in Ubuntu) running in a sysVinit compatibility mode...which created upstart native jobs that mimicked traditional runlevels to run everything else.
In Fedora i'm pretty sure none of the installable services...such as sshd ever had upstart "native" job files and were run as traditional initscripts under the compatibility mode. I expect RHEL 6 to be using upstart in the same way. Which is to say...as close to a replacement of sysvinit and no further than that.
And since I asked the question originally I've looked over the open upstart bugs that have bubbled up in the context of other discussions and it seems upstart has some long standing issues that prevent conversion of a number of significant services like apache and other forking services.
Bug from 2010:
This is pretty much a showstopper for "native" upstart process control across an important swath of daemon (especially for the cloud..cough cough.) I am NOT saying this is unfixable. The original lead developer clearly thought it was fixable...in 2010..by moving away from ptrace in how upstart did its magic. But its NOT FIXED going on a year and a half later to my understanding.
This really brings home the point I think that Canonical has a problem keeping up with their own project development long term. Canonical's choice to keep upstart would make more sense if they were actively cultivating upstart so it could be a full init replacement so all services could gain access to the enhanced event based job control. But they aren't. They made a push to "go native" for as much as was feasible..but they haven't fixed upstart to be able to take it further and complete the work. That's a problem. The longevity of that bug speaks to focus and to quality more than perhaps a lot of people inside the Canonical fenceline realize.
An init replacement system that can't be used to transition from the legacy sysvinit scripts to get access to advanced job flow control features sort of defeats the point a little bit. Especially for a company that is really pushing the server motto. But hey if they want to stick their heels in the sand they are only hurting their own long term prospects. It's always a bit sad to watch it happen. Hopefully they'll double down and put some more engineering manpower into getting upstart polished off instead of letting it linger a slow death.
-jef
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 26, 2012 11:16 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
I'm wondering if they could switch between RHEL 6.x versions. Though I guess that might be a bit too invasive (systemd relying on new kernel versions, udev, etc).
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 28, 2012 23:23 UTC (Sat) by speedster1 (subscriber, #8143) [Link]
I think swapping init systems in a minor version bump would be very inappropriate for RHEL. Too much system config churn for their very conservative customer base, without a compelling excuse for making such an exception in their normal upgrade strategy.
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 28, 2012 23:42 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
They don't even update kernels between releases. So little chance of that.
Though RHEL7 should be fairly soon - in 2014 or so :)
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted May 1, 2012 17:05 UTC (Tue) by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955) [Link] They don't even update kernels between releases. Yes they do. And it's not just updating drivers; they've backported quite large new features, like KVM into RHEL 5.
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 25, 2012 1:57 UTC (Wed) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link]
>Well, yes. Debian supports even KitchenSi^W^W GNU Hurd.
Any takers for (Solaris's) SMF? :)
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 25, 2012 12:21 UTC (Wed) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link]
Hurd is not (yet) a supported kernel for Debian.
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 26, 2012 19:38 UTC (Thu) by cdmiller (subscriber, #2813) [Link]
And jumping off the bridge cause everyone else is doing it, is a logical fallacy.
Shuttleworth: Quality has a new name Posted Apr 26, 2012 21:21 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
As is staying in a sinking ship just because you think that all other passengers are idiots.
|
|||||||||||||