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LFCS 2012: X and WaylandLFCS 2012: X and WaylandPosted Apr 14, 2012 16:11 UTC (Sat) by quintesse (subscriber, #14569)In reply to: LFCS 2012: X and Wayland by apoelstra Parent article: LFCS 2012: X and Wayland
How? The way Gnome and KDE do right now, by having special themes (or theme engines) that know about the other DE's theme settings. But this is problem that exists right now as well, if you don't have those compatibility packages installed a Gnome app will look completely out of place on a KDE desktop and vice versa.
Yes those other OSes or less flexible, what does that have to do with anything? We were talking about being able to provide a consistent desktop experience, even when using CSD. And talk about insanity, you *really* want to use the Linux desktop as an example of saneness???
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LFCS 2012: X and Wayland Posted Apr 16, 2012 18:43 UTC (Mon) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]
> Yes those other OSes or less flexible, what does that have to do with anything? We were talking about being able to provide a consistent desktop experience, even when using CSD. And talk about insanity, you *really* want to use the Linux desktop as an example of saneness???
Putting window controls outside of the application is one of the things that the Linux desktop does which is undeniably better than the alternatives. Why do you want to throw away an advantage? You seem to be assuming that the way things work is "just" an accidental side effect of the implementation and not, as it is, a feature.
The correct thing to do is to find a way to retain the experience we have now--which is well liked--and add technically superior underpinnings. So far I have heard that Wayland will throw away valuable and desirable features with the only justification given as "We want to improve the implementation and it's too hard to make it keep working the right way afterwards, so we decided to assume that no one cares."
If the new system really is superior then re-implement the old system on top; if you can't, it isn't.
LFCS 2012: X and Wayland Posted Apr 16, 2012 21:48 UTC (Mon) by quintesse (subscriber, #14569) [Link]
So what's so superior about it?
We already know that X is better at handling unresponsive apps, but that's not something that's impossible to do with CSD.
So what else is so superior that people will not even wait until Wayland has actually something usable to show to before running it into the ground? (which is by the way the ONLY thing I've been trying to clear up all this time. Of course if Wayland can maintain current X functionality I'll be happy, but I'm just not convinced I'll be unhappy if they can't)
LFCS 2012: X and Wayland Posted Apr 17, 2012 11:55 UTC (Tue) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]
> So what else is so superior that people will not even wait until Wayland has actually something usable to show to before running it into the ground?
There's this tendency to say "You should have raised this objection a year ago" when the software is already released and the problems become clear.
LFCS 2012: X and Wayland Posted Apr 17, 2012 12:04 UTC (Tue) by quintesse (subscriber, #14569) [Link]
Well constructive criticism is great of course, helping out and coming up with solutions would be better, but what I see mostly in these threads is people just assuming the very worst and do nothing but complain. That can be very demotivating and is normally the number one reason for the developers to ignore people. (I can't imagine what it must be like to be Lennart Poettering for example ;) )
LFCS 2012: X and Wayland Posted Apr 17, 2012 19:09 UTC (Tue) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]
Hear, hear! I find it very tiresome for so many people to complain so bitterly about the few projects that really seem to be improving and revitalizing the Linux ecosystem. Pottering and Packard seem to be some of the few people who are willing to take on the challenge of improving what has come before instead of casting it in bronze as a museum piece. In this specific case it is particularly ironic because the Wayland developers also seem to be the X developers and if anything Wayland is X12.
Wayland is heavily informed by what does and doesn't work in X by the people who know it most intimately. As you say some people are just assuming the very worst and doing nothing but complain but the developers they are complaining are wrong and the developers they are holding up as right are _the_same_people_!
LFCS 2012: X and Wayland Posted Apr 18, 2012 8:12 UTC (Wed) by renox (subscriber, #23785) [Link]
> the developers they are complaining are wrong and the developers they are holding up as right are _the_same_people_
Except of course that the same people at different times may do totally different things due to changing priorities, which means you have _no_point_.
LFCS 2012: X and Wayland Posted Apr 19, 2012 18:46 UTC (Thu) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link]
Linux does not do anything regarding window decorations. X and the window manager does things regarding window decorations.
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