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Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities
Jean Paoli has a weblog
post announcing Microsoft's new wholly owned subsidiary known as
Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc. "The subsidiary provides a new way of engaging in a more clearly defined manner. This new structure will help facilitate the interaction between Microsoft’s proprietary development processes and the company’s open innovation efforts and relationships with open source and open standards communities."
(Log in to post comments)
A firewall for Microsoft? Posted Apr 13, 2012 19:32 UTC (Fri) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]
Simon Phipps tries to answer the "Why?" question:
http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/04/why-m... His speculation that this is likely some kind of firewall for Microsoft against having to abide by any free software licenses and having to play fair with Patents in a share-and-share-alike manner might be what this is really about.
A firewall for Microsoft? Posted Apr 13, 2012 19:39 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]
Creating a corporate firewall for GPL compliance is probably an underlying reason but this might also greatly reduce the internal barriers for MS to participate in open source projects which is probably a good thing in general.
A firewall for Microsoft? Posted Apr 13, 2012 21:13 UTC (Fri) by webmink (guest, #47180) [Link]
I think those are actually the same thing seen from different directions.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 13, 2012 19:33 UTC (Fri) by clopez (subscriber, #66009) [Link]
Bullshit!!!
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 13, 2012 20:12 UTC (Fri) by dpquigl (subscriber, #52852) [Link]
With a comment like that I think you were looking for Slashdot. It's two blocks down on your right.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 13, 2012 20:17 UTC (Fri) by flammon (guest, #807) [Link] lol, you got that right. After over 15 years of following Slashdot, I finally decided to unsubscribe from the RSS feed. I'm sure that I'll check it out once in a while but not daily like I used too.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 15, 2012 19:54 UTC (Sun) by clopez (subscriber, #66009) [Link]
Ok, I can elaborate a bit more: I don't trust any single word about openness coming from this company. I think this is just a opportunistic move and not willingness to change their culture.
The next big thing, the cloud, is linux-powered, is a fact. So Microsoft now is forced to bit the dust and accept this open standards to don't be left of the game.... But don't let them fool you: if they have a minor chance of building their own proprietary stuff and monopolize the market they won't blink for a second.
The world will be a better place without Microsoft. They are like a virus, once they enter on a market they will do everything that they can to monopolize it and force the rest of the players to dance their own song.
Just look the desktop market. Go to a shop and try to buy a laptop or pc without Microsoft software: good luck.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 3:41 UTC (Mon) by russell (subscriber, #10458) [Link]
I got that from your first post :)
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 15:34 UTC (Mon) by utoddl (subscriber, #1232) [Link] They are like a virus[.]Not "virus". I think the word you're looking for is "cancer". I'm sure I heard that somewhere before...
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 18, 2012 16:20 UTC (Wed) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]
> They are like a virus
How was the old saying going? "Windows is a virus with mouse support" ;)
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 13, 2012 22:26 UTC (Fri) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link]
Regarding the hate posts already put up here...
People consistently forget that large companies like Microsoft are made up of tens of thousands of people. There is a lot of new blood going into Microsoft every year. A lot of those new people "grew up" with Linux and FOSS in college. It is not even remotely surprising, nor unexpected, that Microsoft's stance towards Open standards and software would change over the years.
Even a lot of Linux nerds get hired in at Microsoft, because whatever your feelings are on the company, just their dev _interns_ make the equivalent of a $90,000k salary (if they were there for a year and not just 3 months) and student loans have to get paid off somehow, and hey once you start working there you realize that a lot of awesome people are there doing a lot of awesome things and the internal culture is fantastic and the company treats you well and why wouldn't you want to work there? :) (No, I do not work there and never have, but a majority of the tech people I know do; living in Redmond WA makes that almost unavoidable.)
Back on point, this initiative at Microsoft is just a sign of the increasing youth and modern tech-savvy at Microsoft, and the changes the company is going through after the huge internal company culture changes that happened almost a decade ago (when Gates left, his replacement in Ozzie did not have the same charisma with the internal techies, the company swelled its numbers of employees by a ridiculous number, and the company fractured -- for the better -- from a monolithic macro-organization to a colony of micro-organizations). To think that everything a company of that size does is all part of a secret hateful anti-everyone plot carried out by a tiny cabal of executives is, to be frank, outright freaking retarded. Big companies do not have a single brain. It's almost silly to even consider it a single company.
Some divisions are Microsoft are absolutely still run by anti-Open profit-mongering old-school jerks. Many others are run by much more Open-minded individuals these days. This new initiative exists because of those new people, not because of an evil plan by the dinosaurs.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 0:13 UTC (Sat) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] I am skeptical. Corporate culture does not change quickly. Microsoft's long history of shady practices is serious baggage, so I am not yet willing to give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt. Maybe in 5 years' time I'll change my mind. But not any sooner.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 0:45 UTC (Mon) by PaulWay (✭ supporter ✭, #45600) [Link]
> I am skeptical. Corporate culture does not change quickly. Microsoft's long history of shady practices is serious baggage, so I am not yet willing to give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt.
I think the other reason to be sceptical is that there is, and has been for many many years, a complete disconnect between the people writing the code and the people managing Microsoft. It's a mistake to believe that just because the technical people are saying "yeah" to Linux, the overall management of the corporation does not want to extinguish any competition in any way it can.
Microsoft is also extremely patient and has shown that they're happy to pursue multi-year plans to further its own interests. The current plans about UEFI boot restrictions are an example - they know that it's going to take years for motherboard manufacturers to implement UEFI and for new computers to be sold with the restrictions turned on by default, but Microsoft knows that the waiting will eventually pay off by eliminating any possibility of using anything else. They also know that by moving slowly they can give the appearance of doing nothing, and that its hard for us and Microsoft's corporate competitors (Red Hat, Canonical, etc) to keep protesting about these restrictions for the years that it'll take for the stranglehold to tighten.
I'm sure there's plenty of people in Microsoft who like and use FOSS. But that doesn't validate the company's anti-competitive goals. Just because the slavedrivers pray on Sunday does not make slavery acceptable.
Have fun,
Paul
P.S. re UEFI: Microsoft also knows full well that the only other organisations capable of getting their keys into motherboard's BIOSes are governments. It knows that by enforcing UEFI they're also allowing a whole range of government anti-user-ware to be used to spy on their populace. It knows that the US government as well as other similarly repressive regimes like Syria and Iran would happily use the chance to be able to force machines to install their spyware to the exclusion of all others. And it's still happy to push that agenda. Microsoft is setting the entire world up to be open to government-owned malware and it is happy to provide the mechanism. If that isn't a reason for making sure the whole secure boot proposal dies completely and utterly then nothing will move you.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 7:08 UTC (Mon) by oldtomas (guest, #72579) [Link] Yes, I had to pun on your insightMicrosoft is also extremely patient [...]. They also know that by moving slowly they can give the appearance of doing nothing [...].I couldn't agree more. Looking at history you can see this pattern time and again:
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 8:22 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] You forgot one highly relevant maneuver. When Microsoft is behind and needs to push the competition away it starts talking and pushing “standards, we really need these standards” angle. As soon as competition is crushed it immediately makes further development proprietary and often declines to share any documentation. Netscape vs Internet Explorer is good example from your list, but the best one is probably Novel's Netware and Samba. Remember a time when Netware was a king and Microsoft's Windows NT Server was a pariah? Back them Microsoft also loved network standard, even submitted documentation to IETF… but few years later when it become obvious that Netware is no longer a thread it stopped sharing any information about any future extensions and only relented after a huge penalties imposed by court. So far all cases where Microsoft is playing “standards” angle follow this pattern: either Microsoft is behind or it's pushed to implement some kind of interoperability by governments or court. Note that when Microsoft is playing the standards game its efforts are genuine: software engineers from Microsoft are competent guys and they do know how to deal with standards. And since they can only do that when their management allows that you can trust Microsoft completely. I mean you can be 90%, nah, 100% sure that Microsoft will help standardization when Microsoft is under one threat or another (competitive thread, government threat, court penalty, etc) and will withdraw it's support immediately when it's no longer on shaky ground…
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 11:51 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]
You mean, like ISO/IEC 29500 (the Office Open XML standard)? That would be the very huge one that not even Microsoft Office actually implements, and that could only be passed at ISO by means of a Microsoft sleazefest which made the whole standards process a farce. Yep, sounds like a genuine effort to me.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 12:45 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] That would be the very huge one that not even Microsoft Office actually implements, and that could only be passed at ISO by means of a Microsoft sleazefest which made the whole standards process a farce. The pass at ISO is totally different thing, this is not where software engineers are involved. As far as completeness is concerned OOXML standard is quite good: in many aspects it's better defined then, e.g. ODF. The fact that it's not implemented by anyone is separate aspect, as I've said before: while technical guys do their work admirably their managers know what they need to do even better. Typical Microsoft-standard is complete enough and detailed enough to make sure it can be used for PR without fraud charges (this is where technical guys are needed and where they do good work), but genuine interoperability is a danger and should be avoided as much as possible. Actually it's possible that MS Office does implement the ISO standard. ISO added a lot of erratas to the document after retification with justifications which basically say: OOXML standard says A, but MS Office does B thus we need to change OOXML to make compatible with MS Office. This is good technical work, but obviously this is pure PR, interoperability is not even considered.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 14:29 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] Typical Microsoft-standard is complete enough and detailed enough to make sure it can be used for PR without fraud charges (this is where technical guys are needed and where they do good work), but genuine interoperability is a danger and should be avoided as much as possible. Right. So when Microsoft was forced by the European Commission to document the SMB protocols, the outside expert that Microsoft itself had selected to oversee compliance rejected their documents as unusable so these needed to be redone. Way to go, Microsoft. Actually it's possible that MS Office does implement the ISO standard. ISO added a lot of erratas to the document after retification with justifications which basically say: OOXML standard says A, but MS Office does B thus we need to change OOXML to make compatible with MS Office. This is good technical work, but obviously this is pure PR, interoperability is not even considered. I'd say this is being done to keep OOXML a moving target that only Microsoft can implement (if anybody). Remember that OOXML includes features that can only be implemented in a conforming manner by essentially reproducing weird bugs of obsolete Excel releases. This is abominable technical work as far as I am concerned. One would hope that any engineer with a shred of self-respect would resign in disgust before allowing something like this to be published on their watch, no matter what the managers say. Also note that huge numbers of technical issues were basically ignored while the standard was being ramrodded through the ISO committee. If the standard had been any good in the first place, this would not have been that much of an issue. Again, abominable technical work preparing the standard to begin with. Microsoft says that the next version of Microsoft Office is supposed to implement OOXML properly. Whether that will actually happen is anybody's guess.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 19:50 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Remember that OOXML includes features that can only be implemented in a conforming manner by essentially reproducing weird bugs of obsolete Excel releases. Compatibility is a bitch, yes. This is abominable technical work as far as I am concerned. Why? If the goal is to faithfully preserve the existing corpus of documents (and this was justification given for OOXML existence when ODF was already ratified as ISO standard) then something like this is basically the only way. One would hope that any engineer with a shred of self-respect would resign in disgust before allowing something like this to be published on their watch, no matter what the managers say. I think you've mixed engineer (who's by definition is concerned with applying scientific knowledge, mathematics and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical problems) with someone else. Perhaps scientist from Ivory tower? That's separate occupation. Engineers are often do things like this (as a couple of examples: Chrome's user-agent string and HTML5 content sniffing) and when they work - they are justifiably proud. Also note that huge numbers of technical issues were basically ignored while the standard was being ramrodded through the ISO committee. If the standard had been any good in the first place, this would not have been that much of an issue. Actually standard was in quite good shape if you'll consider it's size and time given to develop it. Again, abominable technical work preparing the standard to begin with. Nope. It was just pushed through the ISO way before it was polished enough. This is not a technical issue. Technical issues are slowly fixed as I've pointed out above. Once again: Microsoft knows how to develop standards. It knows it very well indeed. But you must always keep in mind that it's goal is PR, not interoprability.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 19:58 UTC (Mon) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
> Compatibility is a bitch, yes.
but where 'compatibility' is defined as "implement this the same way it worked in Excel 95" with no documentation about what that way is, it's absolutely impossible for anyone other than Microsoft to ever be complaint with the standard
the fact that such wording was allowed in a standards document says a lot about the poor quality of the standard.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 20:45 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] but where 'compatibility' is defined as "implement this the same way it worked in Excel 95" with no documentation about what that way is, it's absolutely impossible for anyone other than Microsoft to ever be complaint with the standard Sure. And that's the point! The fact that engineers added these bits means they really care about backward compatibility and the fact that managers were able to get ISO approval means that they have done admirable job obtaining this elusive seal of approval. To edit old documents you really need all these bits which instruct you to “calculate line heigh like a WordPerfect 6.x” or to “emulate Word 5.x for Macintosh small caps formatting”. And engineers absolutely can document them, but why should they if ISO is already satisfied? What's your problem? Ah, you mean, you can not use this standard in any other program? Sorry, was never in the cards. It's not for you, it's for Microsoft's PR department. This is how Microsoft does most standards. Recall VML/SVG again. Microsoft only implements standards faithfully if there are real danger that it's creations will be just thrown away if some kind of standard will not implemented. Even then it carefully checks if it's actually needed to create something interoperable or just something certified. Microsoft, of course, much, much, MUCH prefer the latter. Think Windows NT 3.1 with it's POSIX subsystem which was needed to circumvent POSIX-compatibility requirements by certain government institutions. POSIX programs had no access to GUI because it was not required to get the certification. This nicely solved both needs: Windows NT was approved because it was POSIX-compliant and it was never used as POSIX-compliant OS because this mode was deliberately crippled. OOXML is the same just in revers: Microsoft created the standard and then pushed it (and genuinely improved it!) till it got an ISO stamp of approval. Then stopped because, you know, mission is accomplished, you only need to keep the OOXML work active enough for the ISO to not withdraw the ratification. the fact that such wording was allowed in a standards document says a lot about the poor quality of the standard. Come on. When ODF was ratified as ISO standard it contained similar worlds WRT the whole spreadsheet language definition! If you start to expand the scope of the standard then you risk expanding the work till it'll taked decades and will just be eventually abandoned. The difference comes later: OOXML was basically frozen (and noone, except Microsoft, knows how to “emulate Word 97 east asian line breaking”) while ODF was developed further and by now version 1.2 includes extensive documentation - but this part comes later and, as I've said, has nothing to do with the quality of the Microsoft's engineers.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 22:00 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] And engineers absolutely can document them, but why should they if ISO is already satisfied? The point here is that ISO wasn't actually satisfied (in a meaningful way). People identified all sorts of technical problems with the proposed OOXML standard but Microsoft had carefully arranged to (a) allow as little discussion of the technical issues as possible and (b) have various ISO countries which up to that point had not shown any interest whatsoever in the standardisation of office document formats send voting representatives who just incidentally happened to be employed by Microsoft partner companies. This is what allowed the standard to pass, not its technical excellence (which wasn't anything to write home about in the first place). the fact that managers were able to get ISO approval means that they have done admirable job obtaining this elusive seal of approval. There are various adjectives in the English language that one might use to describe this sort of behaviour, but at least as far as I'm concerned »admirable« is not among them. »Reprehensible« or »sleazy« would be more to the point.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 22:20 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] The point here is that ISO wasn't actually satisfied (in a meaningful way). ISO ratified and published the standard. This finishes the story. Or rather it finishes the first part: now the task is to keep it on back-burner with just enough activity to keep it alive and not provoke ISO to withdraw it's approval. This task also goes fine. This is what allowed the standard to pass, not its technical excellence (which wasn't anything to write home about in the first place). Sure. But all standards have shortcomings. ODF has many holes, too (just the latest wart), especially ODF 1.0 (which was ratified by ISO, remember?), so why are you so hostile WRT OOXML technical excellence? The sad fact in OOXML saga is the simple truth: ODF was just as immature (perhaps even more immature) when it was approved by ISO. Of course there was significantly more urgent need because previous ISO abomintation was widely rejected by office suites, but as far as pure technical side is concerned… no, ODF wasn't anything to write home about.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 22:47 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] But all standards have shortcomings. ODF has many holes, too (just the latest wart), especially ODF 1.0 (which was ratified by ISO, remember?), so why are you so hostile WRT OOXML technical excellence? Personally I would be very reluctant to ascribe any sort of »technical excellence« to a standard that takes up 7000 pages and still is not sufficient to enable third parties to implement conforming software – which ODF, for all its faults, appears to manage well, and at a fraction of the size.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 23:05 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
Have you checked the recent ODF standard with all referenced standards? It's far more than 7000 pages.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 23:31 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] Yes, but most of that (like the XML specification) is independently useful. Where I come from, building on other existing standards is generally considered a Good Thing™. On the other hand, Microsoft apparently came up with enough new stuff for OOXML – stuff that does not appear to be standardised elsewhere – for them to take 7000 pages to write it all down. If you add pre-existing stuff like the XML specification, which the OOXML standard also references but does not actually include, the document set gets bigger still.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 1:15 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
>Yes, but most of that (like the XML specification) is independently useful
Yeah? How about SVG which has exactly _zero_ fully-conforming renderers? And now they've decided to play the favorite OpenSource game and rewrite SVG 2.0 almost from scratch. I've worked with VML back in early 2000-s and it was many times easier to write a simple renderer for it.
Then there are questions of CSS in ODF, but my comments would be unprintable.
Frankly, supporting a subset of OOXML without crazy magic formatting options has about the same complexity as supporting ODF. Except that OOXML is internally more consistent.
Now, OOXML is clearly not ideal. But it's OK-ish, and ISO quite fairly standardized it on its technical merits.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 5:33 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Except that OOXML is internally more consistent. Only someone with agenda can claim that these three lines (which mark test as red in .docx, .xlsx and .pptx) are consistent: No, OOXML is most definitely not consistent. It encodes warts of all the legacy documents quite well (as it was the goal of it's creation) but consistency? Not in the cards. It was not the goal of it's creators, thus you hardly can fault them. Now, OOXML is clearly not ideal. But it's OK-ish, and ISO quite fairly standardized it on its technical merits. Note: I never said it. OOXML is internal Microsoft's format and it's one of the better documented proprietary formats. Usually ISO was quite reluctant to standardize such things because, frankly, they have only limited appeal for anyone except the primary author. Usually just some subset was standardized (such as PDF/X, PDF/A, PDF/E, PDF/VT, or PDF/UA). The fact the full pig was pushed through ISO tarnishes it's reputation in IT industry beyond repair, but this is separate issue from the standard's technical quality.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 23:23 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Personally I would be very reluctant to ascribe any sort of »technical excellence« to a standard that takes up 7000 pages and still is not sufficient to enable third parties to implement conforming software – which ODF, for all its faults, appears to manage well, and at a fraction of the size. Why should it achieve this goal if it was not designed for that? It was designed to preserve formatting of the old documents - and it does it well. I've seen plenty of documents which survive .doc⟷.docx or .xls⟷.xlsx roundtrip just fine but completely lose formatting when roundtripped as .doc⟷.odt or .xls⟷.ods. Some of them keep formatting when opened in LibreOffice even, yet they still breaks apart when saved as .odt or .ods! Once again: OOXML have achieved all goals it was designed to achieve. It's pretty compatible with legacy formats (when MS Office is used) and it's pretty compatible with other Office suites (such as iWorks) which are developer with Microsoft's help. Thus it obviously achieved all the goals it was set to achieve and as such is quite professional and successful standard. You bitch about the fact that it does not make it possible to create credible competitor for the MS Office - but this, too, was the important goal and it was successfully achieved so what's your problem? You don't like situation when standards are used to stifle competition? This is not technical problem with the standard, sorry.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 23:37 UTC (Mon) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
it's hard to say if it's really compatible with all the legacy formats as there isn't any software that fully implements it (Even MS Office doesn't fully implement it, at best it only every implemented some draft version)
but it's easy to define a format with 100% backwards compatibility on paper.
File format, one line of ASCII text followed by an additional block of data who'ss format is identified by the line of text.
the line of text can have the value
'ODF 1.0' in which case the second block is in the format specified by PDF 1.0
'Word 2007' in which case the second block is in the format of Microsoft Word 2007
etc.
In a couple of pages I could specify a format with better compatibility than anything that Microsoft has ever even thought about.
and it would be about as much use as the OOXML format in terms of actually allowing anyone to implement it
your repeated claims that OOXML has achieved success only work if you completely ignore all technical measures of success and only consider political and marketing shenanigans, and even then there was enough of a stink over this that it's only a qualified success at best
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 5:13 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] but it's easy to define a format with 100% backwards compatibility on paper. Sure. That's why I'm talking about real world documents (mostly financial), not about some abstract paper. and it would be about as much use as the OOXML format in terms of actually allowing anyone to implement it It'll be much harder to implement it even partially, but yes, you'll achieve compatibility goal. ODF have not done it and thus it's not compatible. It's as simple as that. your repeated claims that OOXML has achieved success only work if you completely ignore all technical measures of success Bullshit. I've given you a criteria: take a bunch of old documents from some collection (private and/or government one), convert them to ODF and OOXML, convert them back, watch the result. This is technical criteria (it was guiding policy for Unicode standard BTW, only there they converted plain text documents in different encodings back and forth). OOXML works (as implemented by MS Office), ODF fails (as implemented by LibreOffice). Most of the failures are caused exactly by refusal of ODF to support legacy warts which you so despise.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 18, 2012 21:15 UTC (Wed) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] For a fair comparison, convert StarOffice documents to ODx and back, not MSFT cruft. And BTW, the "conversion" there is mostly wrapping/unwrapping, there is no real "conversion." Or use Office to convert from DOC to ODT and back.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 18, 2012 22:03 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] For a fair comparison, convert StarOffice documents to ODx and back, not MSFT cruft. I don't know where your idea about “fair” comes from. There are bazillion documents created in the format of old versions of MS Office. Number of documents in StarOffice format is minuscule in comparison. That's why OOXML was designed and presented as format usable and compatible with “old proprietary formats of MS Office”, not with “old proprietary formats of all existing programs”. This is how it was presented in ISO and this is what said format does. If ISO accepted this goal as design criteria (and looks like it did) then indeed OOXML is the best possible solution. And BTW, the "conversion" there is mostly wrapping/unwrapping, there is no real "conversion." Sure, but it works. Not perfectly, but much better then ODT. Or use Office to convert from DOC to ODT and back. The results are usually significantly worse then with LibreOffice. That's because when LibreOffice is faced with something unsupported by ODF (but supported by old, proprietary formats) it tries to somehow change the document to fit. MS Office just drops these parts on the floor. And it'a easy to understand why: LibreOffice has no choice while MS Office has much better format (better for the purpose of editing old documents, that is): OOXML.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 0:52 UTC (Tue) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] I'm sorry, but roundtrips DOC --> DOCX --> DOC done by the very same people who inflicted said formats on us don't tell anything at all.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 5:19 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] It does. It proves that such round-trip is possible. The next step is, of course, it to see if anyone else can do that. And, suprise, surprise, it's possible: LibreOffice can not save documents in OOXML format, but at can read them and half-round trip (convert from legacy format to OOXML using MS Office, open said OOXML in LibreOffice then save as legacy format and open in MS Office) still works better then ODF roundtrip. You may dislike Microsoft shenanigans as much as you want but OOXML is technically the best candidate for the problem it was designed to solve. If such technical problem (standard with support for legacy Microsoft's formats) deserves an ISO approval or not is separate issue.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 8:32 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] It proves that such round-trip is possible. Considering that OOXML is mostly an XML encoding of the legacy Microsoft Office formats, anything else would be … unusual. On the other hand, Microsoft might have botched even that, the way they have botched so many other things, so it's probably best to be grateful for small miracles. Finally, the alleviation for the »changing the printer driver changes the formatting« in Word is apparently to save your document as RTF and then load it back from the RTF file. Go figure.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 10:34 UTC (Tue) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]
The fact that changing your printer driver alters the formatting of a document kind of boggles my mind. WTF does the printer driver have to do with it? What if you have more than one printer installed?
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 13:33 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] What if you have more than one printer installed? Then you can find out that your painstakingly composed document tested on 360dpi dot-matrix printer falls apart when you try to do a final output on 600dpi LaserJet. The fact that changing your printer driver alters the formatting of a document kind of boggles my mind. This is quite unfortunate, but you should remember then first versions of MS Word were supposed to create something acceptable for 72dpi printer! It's impossible to create anything good-looking for such a low resolution unless your document is completely built around this final output device. And then we have this pesky backward-compatibility concerns, of course.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 14:14 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] It's impossible to create anything good-looking for such a low resolution unless your document is completely built around this final output device. Tell that to Donald Knuth, who came up with TeX in the late 1970s/early 1980s. At that time, TeX output looked substantially the same (modulo resolution) whether produced on a really low-res Xerox graphics printer or a several-thousand DPI phototypesetter, and certainly a lot nicer than Word output does even today. Especially when mathematics are involved. These scientists certainly gave Microsoft's »engineers« a run for their money. Anyway, 72 dpi is a bit on the low side. Even the 24-pin dot matrix printer I used to have in the 1980s was capable of 360-dpi output in graphics mode, and was actually reasonably fast at 180 dpi. Wikipedia claims that »Word for DOS has been designed for use with high-resolution displays and laser printers, even though none were yet available to the general public«, which makes the strange printer driver issues even more mystifying considering that, even leaving TeX out of the game, there were various other word processing packages on the market at the time, for different platforms including not just DOS and the Mac but also the Apple II and Atari ST, which managed to produce output on a par with (or surpassing) Word but identically across a range of different output devices.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 16:25 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Tell that to Donald Knuth, who came up with TeX in the late 1970s/early 1980s. I'm pretty sure Knuth knows limitations of TeX better then me. It was basically unusable on 72dpi printer. If you had high-quality printer with real double-strike 144dpi mode then yes, it was possible to use TeX - just barely. When 24pin 180dpi/360dpi printers TeX become reality on PC, but it was way too late: WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 were the “established standard” by then. Later MS Office replaced them. These scientists certainly gave Microsoft's »engineers« a run for their money. Rilly? You mean in your universe Joe Average uses TeX and not MS Word to print his creations? This is some kind of interesting universe, I must admit. But here and now TeX is historical curiosity (even mathematical journals often use MS Word instead of TeX and general public does not even know TeX exists). Even the 24-pin dot matrix printer I used to have in the 1980s was capable of 360-dpi output in graphics mode, and was actually reasonably fast at 180 dpi. By that time battle was basically already won: in the era of 9-dot matrix printers TeX was doubly unusable (typical computer had no memory to run TeX and 72dpi printer generated unreadable output if you used it) and people used WordPerfect and WordStar. WordPerfect was more popular by far. Later MS Office won the crown (that's why you see so many WordPerfect warts in OOXML), but, of course, it needed compatibility to do that. Which makes the strange printer driver issues even more mystifying considering that, even leaving TeX out of the game, there were various other word processing packages on the market at the time, for different platforms including not just DOS and the Mac but also the Apple II and Atari ST, which managed to produce output on a par with (or surpassing) Word but identically across a range of different output devices. Which ones do you have in mind? How popular they were back then? People rarely moved documents between computers in that era, but quality of the output was important. Even if printers had 144dpi mode it was slow and unreliable. MS Word was actually not widely used (it came later but of course it inherited warts of previous editors), but layout in most popular editors was already dependent on printer driver. Later MS Word needed to keep the status quo to be accepted. The lesson here is simple: scientists may create truly beautiful things… which will be used by other scientists (and scientists wannabe). But engineers produce things for “real users” and this is quite different art.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 21:59 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] I'm pretty sure Knuth knows limitations of TeX better then me. It was basically unusable on 72dpi printer. The problem, if there was one at all, wasn't one with TeX – it is really that the Computer Modern fonts (at the time essentially the only game in town) don't look their best on low-resolution output devices, and as far as CM is concerned, 600 dpi is »low resolution«. TeX itself was perfectly capable of producing good-looking output even on 72dpi printers (I think you mean 9-pin dot matrix printers), within the limits of the device, if you were willing to wait for the output. It was also possible to adapt Knuth's line breaking/spacing algorithm from TeX to optimise output on dot matrix printers using the built-in fonts at text-printing speed (the relevant paper was published in Software Practice & Experience, I forget the correct citation); I spent quite a lot of time playing with this, way back then, and always wondered why the word processor people wouldn't pick this up. The popularity (or not) of TeX is a non-issue here; you claimed that it was impossible to produce good-looking output on a low-res device without tying one's software to that device, and I cited TeX as a counter-example. A single counter-example disproves »impossible«. I win. Which ones do you have in mind? In the late '80s I (like many other students at my university) used an Atari ST, and people would always prepare documents at home and print them at the university because the laser printers there were a lot more convenient than the dinky dot matrix printers they had at home. I don't recall people complaining that Signum or StarWriter (the great-great-grandfather of today's LibreOffice) would mess up the formatting when a file was moved from one computer to the other. By that time I was a TeX user, anyway, so it was a non-issue for me. But even earlier on the Apple II it made no difference whether you printed stuff on an Epson FX-80 or a Centronics 737 (which were the two printers I was using at the time); they would look subtly different because the built-in fonts were different, but the spacing, page breaks, etc. would of course be identical – which is something that Word apparently hasn't nailed in 2012.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 23:10 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] TeX itself was perfectly capable of producing good-looking output even on 72dpi printers (I think you mean 9-pin dot matrix printers), within the limits of the device, if you were willing to wait for the output. You are mixing draft mode (fast, 72dpi, one pass) with NLQ mode (slow, 144dpi, two passes). Cheap printers cheated and had no “real” NLQ at all (they just passed over the same dots the second time - which produced darker picture but kept the resolution @ 72dpi) and more expensive ones were about 5 times slower in NLQ mode thus most documents were printed in draft mode (only letter sent by mail were sometimes printed in NLQ mode). you claimed that it was impossible to produce good-looking output on a low-res device without tying one's software to that device, and I cited TeX as a counter-example Yup. At 72dpi TeX produces unreadable text. You either need to use “large, friendly letters” (often not an option because maximum size of letter was limited) or you needed to use slower 144dpi mode - which was also often not an option (even if you had it on your device it was too slow). A single counter-example disproves »impossible«. Right. But you don't have it. TeX is unusable @ 72dpi thus it's obviously not a proper counter-example. And 72dpi is important: Mac used this dpi on screen - exactly to make it easier to produce best possible WYSIWYG for these printers. But even earlier on the Apple II it made no difference whether you printed stuff on an Epson FX-80 or a Centronics 737 (which were the two printers I was using at the time); they would look subtly different because the built-in fonts were different, but the spacing, page breaks, etc. would of course be identical. Of course these will be identical! They have identical resolutions and identical printer fonts (as far as spacing is concerned). MS Word handles such cases just fine - and always did. It's only when you go from dot-matrix @ 144dpi to dot-matrix @ 360dpi or to laser @ 300✕Ndpi you get real problems. I don't recall people complaining that Signum or StarWriter (the great-great-grandfather of today's LibreOffice) would mess up the formatting when a file was moved from one computer to the other. Not sure about Signum, but StarWriter had the same problem as TeX: it produced ugly-looking documents on low-resolution devices. This was probably one reason for why the students tried to print on laser printer whenever possible. The popularity (or not) of TeX is a non-issue here It's absolutely of the issue here. TeX was not initially popular because it was unusable on low-res output devices and when high-res devices become available people continued to use what they were accustomed to use. 1001st repeat of the same story: scientists claim the won because their solution is more technically advanced and engineers claim they won because they created solution which is actually used by people. Shows the difference between good scientist and good engineer quite nicely, isn't it?
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 18, 2012 7:03 UTC (Wed) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] TeX is unusable @ 72dpi thus it's obviously not a proper counter-example. That's what you say. This is what is called the »No true Scotsman« logical fallacy. TeX output at 72dpi is quite readable as far as I'm concerned. Stuff using Computer Modern is not exactly beautiful at 72dpi but that (as I said) is mostly a font problem, not a TeX problem. I spent considerable time in the 1980s writing a DVI previewer for the Atari ST, which had approximately that screen resolution, and it worked fine. TeX was not initially popular because it was unusable on low-res output devices I think that was more to do with the fact that in the early to mid '80s there was no good cheap/free TeX implementation for the PCs of the day. TeX was fine on real computers. Also, TeX was originally meant for typesetting books, not office correspondence, so the observation that it didn't catch on for office correspondence does not detract from the fact that its output was basically OK, which is the original issue.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 16:01 UTC (Tue) by oldtomas (guest, #72579) [Link]
"The fact that changing your printer driver alters the formatting of a document kind of boggles my mind."
It boggled mine too -- at the time. But I can confirm that. Quite a while ago, a friend of mine (to whom I played the role of "local friendly hacker") upgraded from a dot matrix printer (360 dpi, remember those?) to an inkjet (300 dpi).
His carefully written tables kind of exploded :-)
Turns out that the internal measuring unit of Word used to be "whatever The Printer is able to resolve", in a typically Microsoftish nonchalant way.
So tab stops could, with some luck be at such points that the different resolution pushed some material one tab stop further -- some not.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 21:34 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] I think you've mixed engineer (who's by definition is concerned with applying scientific knowledge, mathematics and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical problems) with someone else. I don't need to be lectured by you about what it means to be an engineer. I am one myself and I can tell you that I would rather flip burgers than see my name attached to anything like the OOXML standard. As far as I am concerned, engineering is not just about making things work any which way but also about simplicity, elegance, and beauty. If Microsoft Office had been built by good engineers to begin with, the crocks that are now codified in the OOXML standard would never have been required in the first place. Nope. It was just pushed through the ISO way before it was polished enough. This is not a technical issue. Technical issues are slowly fixed as I've pointed out above. Microsoft had to produce an office document standard as quickly as possible and with the least amount of interference from people who would have been able to point out that it stinks to high heaven. Which is why they came up with a huge but very shoddy »standard« and used ECMA (which basically rubberstamps everything its members submit) and the ISO fast-track procedure, together with all sorts of sleazy tricks to avoid, as far as possible, bringing the shortcomings of the proposal to light. If things had gone the way these things are supposed to go, the pile of manure that became ISO/IEC 29500 would never have been standardised no matter what – both because there was a perfectly workable similar standard (ISO/IEC 26300:2006) already in existence and because there were literally thousands of technical objections (by real engineers) that by rights would have had to be addressed before the standard was even finalised. Attempting to fix these issues piecemeal after the fact is not how things are supposed to be done. You can try to whitewash what Microsoft did with ISO/IEC 29500 all you want; the fact remains that a pig stays a pig even with lipstick on. Once again: Microsoft knows how to develop standards. It knows it very well indeed. No it doesn't. It knows how to produce documents that vaguely look like standards from a distance but are virtually useless to anybody but itself. If you need to look at Excel 95 to figure out what the OOXML standard really means – note that Microsoft didn't bother to actually specify in the standard what the flag in question did, just that it was supposed to trigger behaviour »compatible to Excel 95« –, then this is an obvious problem for anybody outside Microsoft (which is presumably the point of the exercise). They tried to pull off the same sort of thing with the SMB protocols but got caught by their own outside expert. If Microsoft really knew very well how to develop standards then, as far as we can tell from the outside, they do a very good job at concealing that ability from the general public.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 21:55 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
>If you need to look at Excel 95 to figure out what the OOXML standard really means – note that Microsoft didn't bother to actually specify in the standard what the flag in question did, just that it was supposed to trigger behaviour »compatible to Excel 95«
Can you point out the list of trigonometric functions usable in spreadsheets and their parameter types in ODF 1.0?
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 22:22 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] There is a big difference between not standardising something and standardising something in a way that is virtually impossible for everybody except a single party to implement. The trigonometry functions in ODF 1.0 were left out to keep the scope of the first version of the standard manageable. They got added in a later version of the standard. Problem solved. In the meantime there was fairly widespread consensus about what a »sine« and »cosine« is as well as what sort of data type such a function would take or return, and there were various open-source implementations of ODF-based spreadsheet software to refer to. On the other hand, we're pretty much stuck with the weird bits in OOXML that refer to Excel 95 and Word for the Macintosh without actually telling us what they are really supposed to do. There is no source code you can look at to figure them out. And since they're in the standard already they are very difficult to get rid of again.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 22:46 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
That's about the worst way to standardize something because it causes a plethora of incompatible implementations. And we see this right now - there are no two ODF implementations that render complex documents the same way.
Yeah, that annoying 'backwards compatibility' problem again.
We recently tried to migrate a medium-sized organization to a mix of Google Docs (managers need to edit documents during business trips) and OpenOffice. We've failed miserably - there were TONS of incompatibilities, even though both ostensibly support ODF.
In the end, managers decided 'screw Linux and that commie hippies in Google' and went to Microsoft and Office Live with that godawful Sharepoint. And I can't really blame them, at least Microsoft is fairly compatible with itself and you receive something working for your $$$$$.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 23:03 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] there are no two ODF implementations that render complex documents the same way. With Word, there's only one implementation and even that does not manage to render documents consistently, depending on which printer driver (and version) you have installed. This is even before you bring in other software that is ostensibly compatible. I'd say the situation is just as bad.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 23:10 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
Dependency on printer driver (actually, on paper size settings) is well-known and easy to work around. It mostly bites users when constant switching between Letter/A4 is required. Other times you can simply ignore it.
And no, Microsoft has a top-notch online collaboration suite that is almost perfectly compatible with their desktop products, we've found some inconsistencies but they were truly minor.
And no, the actual OOXML files that MS produces do not use the magic 'behave like Excel 95' entries, they are fairly straightforward and easy to parse/generate. It's pretty clear to everybody that MS tries to be bug-compatible with earlier versions so everyone who don't need to work with old documents can simply ignore these commands.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 16, 2012 22:05 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Once again: Microsoft knows how to develop standards. It knows it very well indeed. I don't really see how you can say that. It knows how to produce documents that vaguely look like standards from a distance but are virtually useless to anybody but itself. Bingo! That's the ticket! This is the whole point of the exercise! If Microsoft really knew very well how to develop standards then, as far as we can tell from the outside, they do a very good job at concealing that ability from the general public. Nope. They do this quite openly. I think you just expect something different from them. For Microsoft “standard” is “something accepted by some standards organization”, nothing more, nothing less¹). And as you admit they create these standards and get stamps of approval quite regularly, so why do you say they can not develop standards? As far as I am concerned, engineering is not just about making things work any which way but also about simplicity, elegance, and beauty. That's secondary issues. RFC 1925 may be April Fool's RFC, but it sets the priorities straight. It Has To Work is the first and most important rule. If something works then we can start talks about simplicity, elegance, and beauty. If it does not work then everything else does not matter! If Microsoft Office had been built by good engineers to begin with, the crocks that are now codified in the OOXML standard would never have been required in the first place. This is where you are wrong. If Microsoft Office had been built by good engineers (by your definition) then OOXML would have been similar to what we have today. Just the name of primary sponsor would have been different. Apple or may be some other firm would have presented it while Microsoft would have been extinct. Battle was quite serious back in 1990th and most of warts we observe today in OOXML have roots in that battle. That's why there are these WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 compatibility flags, that's why there flags for bugs introduced in previous versions of MS Office. 90%+ market share of MS Office and ugliness of OOXML are flip sides of the very same coin. ¹) Actually Microsoft also tries to shift attention from “official standards” to “standards de-facto” and now developers often complain that Linux does not support “standard development tools” (i.e. Visual Studio) and “standard APIs” (i.e. DirectX). But this campaign lies in totally separate managerial universe and AFAICS is not driven by Microsoft's engineers.
Microsoft: Boiling Frogs Since 1975 Posted Apr 17, 2012 16:06 UTC (Tue) by oldtomas (guest, #72579) [Link]
"You forgot one highly relevant maneuver"
Oh, I've forgotten quite a few -- among others "decommoditizing protocols", that is populating standard bodies to deliberately make standards more complicated than need be.
But I wasn't quite aware of the kind of maneuver you explain, so thanks for the addition :-)
UEFI Posted Apr 16, 2012 14:30 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] The parent is 100% correct. UEFI is clear evidence of Microsoft's malicious intentions.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 4:06 UTC (Sat) by flammon (guest, #807) [Link]
I don't have a problem with the developers, analysts, designers or anyone else at the bottom of the pyramid at Microsoft but I sure have a problem with the way they run their business and the constant underhand manoeuvres.
The latest example for me is the way they promoted IE9 as the fastest and most standards compliant browser. As a web developer, that offends me. They couldn't be more wrong. In their speed tests, they always compared IE with hardware acceleration enabled and Firefox with hardware acceleration disabled and they proudly announced to the world how great they were. I don't care who's the fastest, I just want an honest and fair test and Microsoft didn't have it in them to do that.
It's been their way of conducting business for years and anyone who is in the know can see right through them.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 9:27 UTC (Sat) by rwst (guest, #84121) [Link]
Agreed, just look at how they treated SVG. Then, finally what, a plug-in? The Web could be full of enlargable illustrations and animations, by now. It really hurts to see such waste.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 11:28 UTC (Sat) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]
> Agreed, just look at how they treated SVG. Then, finally what, a plug-in?
Huh? They do have native SVG support now. (IE9+)
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 16:36 UTC (Sat) by rwst (guest, #84121) [Link]
Tell me: if you were one of the many who write web pages for other people, and you ask your contractor, may I use SVG... but your readers -- if they have IE 8 or less -- will have to install a plugin. What will the average contractor answer? "I can see the benefits, but IE9 will not dominate the next years. So, no."
It is improbable that with so many bright people at MS noone would have pointed out the consequences of their action: the Web twenty years without that SVG.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 17:34 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] It is improbable that with so many bright people at MS noone would have pointed out the consequences of their action: the Web twenty years without that SVG. As far as Microsoft is concerned it's not their fault: they've supported VML for years. The fact that other browsers refuses to support it means it's not their problem. Microsoft always considered standards as one-way street: Microsoft sets them, other use them. VML and OOXML fit this scheme perfectly but the fact that IE9 finally adds SVG support shows some promise. Or course it's only small hint of promise: it's not easy to convince others that you now are serious about standardization process after so many years of abuse. The fact that Microsoft still does not support such a simple thing as
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 15, 2012 2:05 UTC (Sun) by nas (subscriber, #17) [Link]
PNG transparency is another example. How many years did that take? There is lots of other examples.
Regarding SVG, how is it possible that Office products (Word, Powerpoint), still (at least, last I checked) don't have a decent vector format they can import? Windows Metafile (WMF) does not work. It just seems insane to me that a company the size of Microsoft could not provide a single working vector format import for the document products. Anyone who has had to deal with Word for technical documents has probably felt the pain. How many person-years trying to work around that brain-damage?
Microsoft has screwed up interoperability for nearly their entire existence. From the outside, it looked fairly clear that some of that was intentional, generally to harm competition. Now people are slowly moving away from Office and other Microsoft software and they announce (again) how they are going to play nice? Sorry, but as an open source developer I don't believe or trust them.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 3:11 UTC (Mon) by dpquigl (subscriber, #52852) [Link]
Microsoft didn't support inttypes and stdint because those are C99 features. Their compiler is only C89 compliant. Once you start patch working in only part of the standard things get murky.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 8:57 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Microsoft didn't support inttypes and stdint because those are C99 features. Nope. They are listed in addenum D in the list of 25 headers provided by C++11 for compatibility with C. And Microsoft talks big about his dedication to C++11. Once you start patch working in only part of the standard things get murky. Indeed. Does not mean you should drag your feet and include only features which don't help portability. Note that
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 9:47 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
I don't really understand the matter of 'inttypes.h'. Most libraries had some kind of compat typedefs behind #ifdefs for _ages_.
Having a standard header would just mean a bit fewer compat typedefs, that's all.
It's so minor that I haven't even realized it's a problem for anybody.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 10:23 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] I don't really understand the matter of 'inttypes.h'. No? Rilly? Most libraries had some kind of compat typedefs behind #ifdefs for _ages_. And these definition are sometimes incorrect and sometimes conflict (if you want to use two such libraries), they must be included in all the new projects, too. IOW: it PITA. Small one, but still a PITA. The same as the lack of support for “z”, “t”, “ll” (along with Having a standard header would just mean a bit fewer compat typedefs, that's all. Well, that's the whole purpose of standards, right? You can support anything without them by using bunch of ifdefs (runtime checks in case of dynamic languages like JavaScript). Just like you can deal with VML/SVG split by using something like Raphaël. It's so minor that I haven't even realized it's a problem for anybody. Well, it's minor, I'll grant you that. Still cumulative time spent because of it is measured in years: each particular project spent day or so fighting it, but most projects are affected. In a sense it's symbol: Microsoft could easily add these headers (few days of work of a single person), yet it stalls for years. If it feels that it's beneigh its dignity to implement such a simple, much requested things (take a look here, for example) then what hope is there for something more complex? Microsoft participates in standards activity in the hope that everyone else will implement these standards. But as Microsoft is concerned standards most definitely don't apply to Microsoft in any shape or form… sure, if some standard is implemented exactly as Microsoft is envisioned it then it'll be standards compliant, if it's changed (like happened with SVG or OOXML) then, oh well, it's not Microsoft's problem. Other companies and people understand that standards are not the goal in itself, they are means to the other goal: to make interoperability possible. Microsoft understands that, too, and explicitly refuses to cooperate. For Microsoft standards are all about PR: some people at the bottom may foolishly work with standards as any other company but if they become too successful then guys from the top interfere and stop such activity.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 15, 2012 9:07 UTC (Sun) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]
The problem isn't really "people using IE8 or less" but that IE9 does not work on XP so IE users on XP can't use it.
As for MS the situation is at least improving now.
Hate? Posted Apr 14, 2012 9:41 UTC (Sat) by oldtomas (guest, #72579) [Link] Regarding the hate posts already put up here...Oh, come on. I can see just one post which might qualify. OK, two: outright freaking retarded(your words). While I think you might have a point (there's not one, but many Microsofts), the majority position here (general distrust towards Microsoft) is no less respectable, after the long history of actions we all have been watching. For my part, Microsoft will have to work hard to convince me that their intentions are fair (single individuals there might have good intentions).
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 10:20 UTC (Sat) by erwbgy (subscriber, #4104) [Link] Well put. Many of my postgrad friends, the people who taught me about FreeBSD and Linux, ended up at Microsoft as it is/was apparently a great place to work. The guy who was top of our class is still there, as is a friend who used FreeBSD and Linux for 10 years+ before joining (and probably still does). Just like Sony and other big companies, Microsoft does not behave as a single rational entity but like the many different parts it is made up of. I agree that the people at the top are not to be trusted but don't be surprised if some other teams are genuinely and sincerely keen on working a different way.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 10:32 UTC (Sat) by Pawlerson (guest, #74136) [Link] Well put. Many of my postgrad friends, the people who taught me about FreeBSD and Linux, ended up at Microsoft as it is/was apparently a great place to work. The guy who was top of our class is still there, as is a friend who used FreeBSD and Linux for 10 years+ before joining (and probably still does).Are you claiming that "stealing" developers is good to Linux and FLOSS?
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 16:28 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
It very well could be. More people from the inside pushing for change can and does change the internal culture over a period of time, especially when they get promoted up the chain.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 7:44 UTC (Mon) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link]
> Are you claiming that "stealing" developers is good to Linux and FLOSS?
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 10:42 UTC (Sat) by dwaynebailey (guest, #49311) [Link]
Feels a bit like some people need to watch The Corporation. Microsoft is a juristic person and that pretty much explains its behaviour which is completely centred around self interest. Real people have a conscience, corporate entities do not. I guess we're always confused why good people who do good things are working somewhere that doesn't do all good.
I've sat on enough standards committee meetings to remain fully sceptical of corporations. Microsoft needs to do much more then the right thing to win anyone's trust back.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 16:16 UTC (Sat) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
I cannot speak for everyone (obviously), but I believe most people are not talking about the techies when we talk about Microsoft, but about the people that decide the tactics and strategies. Those are the people that define who the company behaves, not the techies.
In the technical side Microsoft is a mixed bag of failures and successes, like everywhere else. I'm pretty sure that most technical failures can be traced back to management: hurried products, and developments that just carried on because they where someone pet project. And I'm also sure that often inside developers are the first unsatisfied with said technical mistakes.
But... from the outside it's a single whole. And because of that, all the people at Microsoft are going to be judged by their management sins. And, if any developer inside Microsoft is not OK with this, he just needs to leave, like some of them have done.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 15, 2012 12:14 UTC (Sun) by jwakely (subscriber, #60262) [Link]
> Many of my postgrad friends, the people who taught me about FreeBSD and Linux, ended up at Microsoft as it is/was apparently a great place to work.
Don't they have any ethics?
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 10:29 UTC (Sat) by Pawlerson (guest, #74136) [Link]
You are mistaken as usual. Microsoft was and is anti Linux company. Not so long ago they spread FUD against it at The Economist and they nearly killed Novell before. What they want to do is just "reset" their reputation, because the young people don't realize how anti FLOSS/Linux Microsoft is. Similar "reset" takes place in different area. Many people don't realize how badly Microsoft products are broken. While there are fundamental design flaws in Windows Microsoft does everything to hide those issues. You hear everyday about how secure Windows is, you hear about "new" security mechanisms and so on, but reality shows all of this is totally broken.
If someone thinks MS can be Linux friend or take a neutral stance he's a fool. Linux is Microsoft the most dangerous competitor - it hit them very hard in enterprise, servers, wiped them out in mobile market and now it's aiming at desktops which is probably the most profitable area to Microsoft.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 14:13 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]
And what about IBM, the archetypal Evil Empire?
A lot of Linux people seem to be generally pro-IBM these days, whereas in the 80s that would have been unthinkable. Give it another decade and maybe MS will be in the same place.
After all, Apple is now where MS was in the 90s (only far, far worse obviously) which leaves MS in a vaguely comparable situation to IBM twenty years ago.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 19:32 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] And what about IBM, the archetypal Evil Empire? The same story as SCO, just in reverse. A lot of Linux people seem to be generally pro-IBM these days, whereas in the 80s that would have been unthinkable. Sure. That's because Louis V. Gerstner was an outsider thus it was able to stop pointless fights and was able to see that Linux will survive without IBM, but IBM may not survive without Linux. Companies are not people, they can radically change when people at the top change. IBM is good example, Nokia is bad examples. After all, Apple is now where MS was in the 90s (only far, far worse obviously) which leaves MS in a vaguely comparable situation to IBM twenty years ago. Right. This means that there is hope. When Microsoft will finally fire it's very first business manager and replace it with some outsider… then and only then can we start talking about “new Microsoft”. Today we have Microsoft which is just as evil as it was under Bill Gates just less competent because it's driven by someone without programmer's background.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 17:14 UTC (Mon) by andres (guest, #83358) [Link]
> You hear everyday about how secure Windows is [...]
lol, I really don't. What circles do you frequent?
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 16:20 UTC (Sat) by fregaham (guest, #44135) [Link]
Making sure that all the new cool languages and frameworks, such as Node.js and PhoneGap, etc. run on and work well with Microsoft's proprietary platforms seems to me like a smart move that even "anti-Open profit-mongering old-school jerks" could make. They need to contribute open source code to these projects, to make then "interoperable" with their platforms, under some open source licenses containing implicit patent granting clauses, such as GPL or ASL. This subsidiary will allow them to do that without compromising their patents.
How does this move benefit anybody but Microsoft?
Who benefits? Posted Apr 14, 2012 23:00 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] How does this move benefit anybody but Microsoft?Exactly. Other commenters are discussing whether Microsoft can be trusted or not, and there is even a link above trying to answer why does Microsoft do this. But on LWN.net the relevant question is: why should we care about this? What is Microsoft going to bring to the table? Reading the blog post there are some critical quotes: [...] support developer choice of programming languages to enable Node.js, PHP and Java in addition to .NET in Windows Azure [...]So the above analysis is spot on: apparently this move is just a way for Microsoft to contribute to Free software projects so they run better on Windows. He mentions MongoDB and Hadoop, and Linux (presumably virtualized somehow). Frankly, nothing too interesting if you run your dev and production environments on Linux.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 23:48 UTC (Sat) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
> How does this move benefit anybody but Microsoft?
the fact that these new frameworks can be used for both microsoft and non-microsoft platforms helps everyone when compared to the prior situation where many things were either microsoft-only on would not work on microsoft systems. Since Microsoft has such a large marketshare, far too many people would write with the microsoft-only frameworks
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 15, 2012 9:56 UTC (Sun) by jospoortvliet (subscriber, #33164) [Link]
MS wants everything to run on their platform to ensure everyone standardizes on it. I bet that's the argument the pro-open techies use to convince their bosses. I'm personally unsure what to think about it - it does indeed increase the value of individual FOSS projects say Apache and MySQL but lowers the value of Linux as a platform.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 15, 2012 13:37 UTC (Sun) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] The counter-argument may be that Microsoft will try hard to slip Windows-only features into Free software projects to encourage Windows lock-in, and that maintainers will have to be ever more vigilant of their embrace-and-extend techniques.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 17:58 UTC (Sat) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]
I already had this lecture with regard to Nokia quite recently, but although it is true that nice people work for nasty corporations, some nice stuff happens, and people outside the corporations even come away with a nice feeling about it, one has to be aware that the nice stuff frequently gets paid for by the activities of the nasty people, whether that is as blatant as shaking down competitors for "licensing revenues", making sure that no-one uses the products of the competition, or gaming standardisation and procurement regulations to stake out guaranteed revenue streams at the expense of others.
But people don't always ask how the cool toys are paid for.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 14, 2012 20:02 UTC (Sat) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]
The current CEO of Microsoft, Steve Ballmer, has called Linux "a cancer." Microsoft continues to be one of the bigger patent trolls in the mobile space and aggressively lobbies in favor of software patents every chance it gets.
The only reason they are creating Microsoft Open Technologies is so that they can release software under the Apache license and other open source licenses without honoring the patent peace clauses in the license. Previously they were getting around the patent peace clauses by selling any patents that they wanted to litigate to shady third parties, who would do the dirty work for them. However, now that patent revenue is starting to take off, doing these kinds of deals would get more awkward. Microsoft makes more patent revenue from Android phones than from sales of Windows Mobile.
Unlike Apple, Microsoft was never very good at marketing. But one thing they have been good at over the years is confusing people. A lot of people just aren't very well versed in the niceties of copyright law, patent law, or business. When someone wearing a suit at Microsoft tells you that you need to pay $800 to SCO to use Linux, you might be tempted to believe them. Similarly, a lot of people looked at Microsoft's "patent pledge for open source developers" and thought it was actually valid. (In fact, the pledge is useless because nothing prevents Microsoft from selling off patents to trolls, who will then turn around and sue you.)
Please don't be fooled by these and other pronouncements out of Redmond. It's still the same old Microsoft. The same old people are in charge, and the same old business model is in effect.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 15, 2012 4:56 UTC (Sun) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]
Many people avoid Microsoft just out of decency standards. Not everyone would accept working for such kind of company, no matter the wages size.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 15, 2012 14:28 UTC (Sun) by abo (subscriber, #77288) [Link]
Come back when they publicly lobby for meaningful patent reform.
Microsoft: a normal IT company Posted Apr 14, 2012 18:14 UTC (Sat) by faassen (guest, #1676) [Link]
Microsoft is slowly turning more and more into a "normal" large creative IT company, like Google or IBM or Apple or Facebook. They contribute cool stuff to open source while on the other hand they do things that aren't good for open source. Just like all the other ones.
Microsoft: a normal IT company Posted Apr 15, 2012 4:57 UTC (Sun) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]
They key word - slowly. So far they are one of the worst software patent aggressors around.
Microsoft: a normal IT company Posted Apr 15, 2012 5:53 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
That's not true. MS wants revenue. Apple is by far worse.
Microsoft: a normal IT company Posted Apr 15, 2012 16:06 UTC (Sun) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]
I didn't say they are the worst. Apple is possibly worse. But they are definitely one of the worst.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 0:38 UTC (Mon) by jra (subscriber, #55261) [Link]
Unfortunately, things don't seem to have changed much - at least on the Standards side of things.
Check out Glyn Moody's posts for details:
http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2012/04/...
Especially the section on the the UK government's consultation on open standards:
"I'm hearing rumours that, as I feared was planned all along, there has been a huge lobbying exercise in favour of FRAND standards by certain large software companies, and that unless more people speak up for RF licensing, we will end up with a regime that is inherently biased against open source. "
Guess who one of the "certain large software companies" is ?
So no, until there is more fundamental change just creating a spin-off org isn't going to do it.
Jeremy.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 1:21 UTC (Mon) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link]
I'm glad not everyone in this thread is hating on Microsoft today. Sure, their actions in the past leave a lot to be desired...but, come on, this is progress. Whatever the motivation for the separate subsidiary - firewalling off the GPL, avoiding contamination, etc. - they are trying to reach out and engage more with the Open Source community, and I think that is a good thing. Good for them. Now, let's make sure we are also engaging with standards bodies lest they outdo us there.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 1:44 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] they are trying to reach out and engage more with the Open Source community, and I think that is a good thing. Why is that a good thing? Seriously, what benefit do you see for the open-source community?
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 2:22 UTC (Mon) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link]
The vast majority of computer users are still running Microsoft Windows. If they're actively engaging with the Open Source community, then there's a chance for greater adoption of Open Source by Microsoft's large user base. We can approach everything Microsoft do with cynicism and skepticism - believe me, I used to do that (but I was young and naive) - or we can occasionally give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they'll ruin the opportunity, maybe they won't. But you can, of course, choose how you want to perceive and react to this according to your own dispositions.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 8:40 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] We can approach everything Microsoft do with cynicism and skepticism - believe me, I used to do that (but I was young and naive) - or we can occasionally give them the benefit of the doubt. Never. This is a way to be royally screwed as I wrote before. It does not mean Microsoft's standard efforts are pointless. Just consider them as one-time gift, don't expect any further support (which may happen… or not) and especially don't expect that further developments will be available on the same footing as today's ones. Remember: you will be screwed when Microsoft will feel it'll be able to get away with it. No buts or ifs. Be ready for that! Microsoft singed to do something for five years? You can rely on this promise for about three or four years. Later it's time to think how you'll live when Microsoft will stop doing something. Think Apple's 1997 agreement: it gave Apple few years when Apple knew Microsoft will produce Microsoft Office and Internet Explorer which were vital for MacOS survival at the time. Five years later Apple become genuine threat and Microsoft was ready to sabotage Apple (Internet Explorer for Mac for neglected, MS Office 2008 for crippled by removal of VBA), but Apple wisely spent these years preparing for these [expected by now] developments: it introduced Safari (as a “full replacement”) and iWork (as “ declaration of intent”). It looks like Microsoft got the hint and returned VBA to MS Office 2011. This is the only way you can work with Microsoft: the question is not when or if it'll try to screw you, but how.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 11:07 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] The vast majority of computer users are still running Microsoft Windows. If they're actively engaging with the Open Source community, then there's a chance for greater adoption of Open Source by Microsoft's large user base. I don't believe that follows. The vast majority of computer users who run Windows are simple-minded sheep who use Word, Excel, Internet Explorer and Outlook and are not even aware that proprietary alternatives exist, let alone open-source ones. If we want to win market share, we have to do that on our own. An alliance with Microsoft won't help that one little bit.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 18:34 UTC (Mon) by sjj (subscriber, #2020) [Link]
"The vast majority of computer users who run Windows are simple-minded sheep..."
What a great way to win friends and influence! Insult your potential users, don't engage them.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 19:39 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] And my statement was inaccurate... how? Hey, I'm less insulting than Balmer. At least I didn't call Windows users "a cancer".
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 19:41 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] Perhaps I should have been clearer: The vast majority of Windows users are simple-minded sheep when it comes to technical questions like the choice of software. Of course, I do not mean to imply that non-technical users are simple-minded sheep outside certain very specific technical areas.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 20:00 UTC (Mon) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] Calling people "simple-minded sheep" is inherently insulting. It does not matter how you qualify it.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 20:24 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] Maybe it's insulting, but it's accurate.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 20:39 UTC (Mon) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
Because you know every and all Windows users, right?. You have a brain, use it.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 17, 2012 0:27 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] I didn't say "all Windows users." I said "the vast majority" and I stand by that. The vast majority of Windows users didn't specifically choose the software they run. The run whatever came on their computer and are probably completely unaware that a non-Windows computer is even possible.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 20:40 UTC (Mon) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
Don't troll. It's deeply insulting and wildly inaccurate. You have no way to judge a person's intelligence even in technical matters just because he or she is using Windows or any other operating system for that matter.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 17, 2012 0:29 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] I'm not trolling. It's absolutely a fact that most Windows users use Windows because it came with their computer and are unaware of alternatives (or even the possibility of alternatives). If you'd spent even one day doing end-user consumer-level PC support, you'd know that what I say is accurate.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 17, 2012 1:39 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
Now, what you are saying about users being unaware of alternatives is true but that absolutely does NOT make them 'simple minded sheep' in any way. That is pure trolling. You need to stop doing that.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 16, 2012 16:18 UTC (Mon) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]
Engage, extend, extinguish.
Paoli: Microsoft will engage with the open source and standards communities Posted Apr 19, 2012 9:06 UTC (Thu) by renox (subscriber, #23785) [Link]
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