Weekly Edition
Return to the Distributions page
| |||||||||||||||||||
Debian's diversity statement
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote: > So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu > by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora > and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be > official published. > But I'd also like to have some inputs from you all, on it. Dear all, here is a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) that Francesca has just shared with me based on the last feedback on list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them into our community. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It seems to me that there is consensus in going ahead with such a statement, modulo some minor disagreements on the form that can still be fixed once published following the usual (bug reporting) procedure. I hereby declare that, as DPL, I'm happy with it and I'm ready to ask the WWW and Press teams to publish and advertise it as a project-wide statement. I'll see to it in a week from now, asking for confirmation from the future DPL. As discussed in [1], if you feel strongly about the need of a GR for publishing this (I don't), please start one and look for seconds as usual. Otherwise, I propose that the statement is published under simple DPL auspices. Cheers. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00011.... -- Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o . Maître de conférences ...... http://upsilon.cc/zack ...... . . o Debian Project Leader ....... @zack on identi.ca ....... o o o « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » (Log in to post comments)
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 19:04 UTC (Mon) by fuhchee (subscriber, #40059) [Link]
Sounds welcoming.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 19:32 UTC (Mon) by apoelstra (subscriber, #75205) [Link]
I agree -- when seeing something called a "diversity statement", I was afraid I would see the words like 'minority' bandied about, or worse, mention of specific 'minority groups' who are popular these days to single out.
Such things are meaningless in a worldwide context, and generally suggest the project is more concerned with political correctness than actually being welcoming. In fact, it would suggest that some people are -not- welcome, if they don't agree with such politics!
I'd have been very disappointed to see something like that coming out of the Debian project. Fortunately, this message was nothing like it, and is indeed very welcoming.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 19:45 UTC (Mon) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
Debian will just continue to covertly deny membership to anyone who doesn't share left-wing, anarchist, communist, or libertarian politics. And many libertarians have already been run off.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 20:24 UTC (Mon) by apoelstra (subscriber, #75205) [Link]
In fact, I have met a libertarian in real life who had been run out of the Debian project. This was several years ago, and given that their public policy has never sounded hostile, I had hoped that such things were the result of just a few bad apples in leadership positions.
The impression I got from this diversity statement was a renouncement, to some extent, of that kind of behaviour.
Perhaps I am wrong. I don't know, and I don't particularly want to engage with the project enough to find out. I'm certainly willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 22:40 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
As someone who left Debian for reasons including its attitude towards inclusiveness, I'd just like to say that Jonathan's expulsion from Debian was an entirely justified act that had absolutely nothing to do with any professed libertarian beliefs.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 5:57 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
Yes, it wasn't for Libertarian beliefs. I was expelled for requesting kosher food. Let's see, what sort of people dislike the people that follow a kosher diet...
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 8:44 UTC (Tue) by bigon (subscriber, #57617) [Link]
Yeah it's known that the Debian project is all about food.
Nice godwin point BTW
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:18 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
In the expulsion notice, it was claimed that I "disrupted" the project by requesting kosher food at DebConf 2006. The leadership team, mainly Germans, told me a bunch of lies about the food, the kitchen, and so on. They were proven liars when a kind person spoke to the kitchen and ensured that every meal included a kosher option for everyone.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:26 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
I requested kosher food at the conference. I was lied to in a way that was really blatant. I could tell they just didn't want to accomodate me and were trying some misdirection. I pointed out that the organizers statements either made them liars, or made the kitchen chef incompetent.
When I saw they weren't going to be swayed, I stopped talking about the matter. I travelled to Mexico with the intention of eating the fine local cuisine outside of the conference, at my own expense.
When I got to the conference, I noticed that every meal did have an acceptable option.
A few days later, one of the organizers took me aside and mentioned that he had lived in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood, and understood how important it was. He had a word with the kitchen before the conference began, and they had made a slight change in the menu to accomodate me. I was thankful and grateful to this man.
I thought the matter was settled. Then it was brought up at my expulsion as being a disruption.
I make no secret that I like OpenBSD. Many people find Theo deRaadt abrasive. But you always know where you stand with him. He doesn't put up with lies, dishonesty, and half-truths.
If insisting on honesty and respect is "disruption", then I am well-quit from Debian.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:41 UTC (Tue) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link] In the expulsion notice, it was claimed that I "disrupted" the projectThat sounds like a good thing? Disruptive innovation and all that?
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 13, 2012 12:12 UTC (Fri) by lacos (subscriber, #70616) [Link]
I'll just leave this here:
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 8:45 UTC (Tue) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]
Way to sound sane, man.
Welcoming diversity without legalese Posted Apr 24, 2012 6:16 UTC (Tue) by bignose (subscriber, #40) [Link]
> when seeing something called a "diversity statement", I was afraid I would see the words like 'minority' bandied about, or worse, mention of specific 'minority groups' who are popular these days to single out.
Those fears are well-founded. If you trawl through the discussion threads that led to this outcome, you'll see that the original proposals for a diversity statement had the kinds of problems you raise: a focus on minorities, and a laundry list of who counts for diversity.
Fortunately, many people raised their voices about these problems. Kudos to Francesca Ciceri for being a very able coordinator for feedback on her original draft, and for rapidly honing it to something that I agree is a much better statement.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 19:49 UTC (Mon) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
Let's deconstruct that, modernist style. If someone doesn't "engage constructively" with Debian. What does that mean? If they hold an ideology that a group of other Debian members don't like, that would prevent constructive engagement. This has happened in the past. One group with one ideology "ganged up" on a member with a conflicting ideology. It is true; there was no "constructive engagement" there. Was it the fault of the individual? No. Fault of the ideologies? No. The ideologies didn't have anything to do with software developement. But the reaction of the group to the person having the ideology; that did prevent "constructive engagement". It led to a shameful chapter in Debians history.
Slippery words, Debian. Very slippery. True to your Communist roots. I see nothing has changed. You worded things sufficiently to disarm most libertarians and anarchists, and to almost any outsider who hasn't been privy to the inner workings.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 19:52 UTC (Mon) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
what would you want to see in such a statement?
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 5:59 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
I'd like to see an honest statement. Say that Debian is for people whose politics don't offend the "kabal that doesn't exist". Add in that Debian members must be left wing socialists, and hold feminism as a core value.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 7:39 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] I'm a Debian developer and NOT a left-wing socialist, so your theory falls down right there.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 8:53 UTC (Tue) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]
"and hold feminism as a core value."
Though if you don't hold feminism as a pretty core value, then those beliefs surely conflict with any sort of diversity and inclusiveness policy, yes? Which surely you're for, right?
Lets not be to quick to exclude non-feminists. Posted Apr 10, 2012 12:23 UTC (Tue) by gmatht (guest, #58961) [Link]
The stats I see show that between 30-60% of women consider themselves feminists (in the US, I imagine). This means that over 40% percent of women don't consider themselves feminists. There are many reasons why someone might not choose to identify as feminist. I don't know much about roskegg and won't criticize Debian's decision to exclude roskegg, but on the other hand it would be unfortunate if Debian somehow managed to exclude everyone who chose not to identify as feminist.
Lets not be to quick to exclude non-feminists. Posted Apr 10, 2012 15:07 UTC (Tue) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
You're going to run into definitional problems in trying to tie this up I imagine. "Feminist" is a label shared by disparate movements, some of whose core beliefs are contradictory (notably the AP and SP feminists have very different ideas about the role of sex and erotica in our society). As a result you will see a big difference between the rate at which people surveyed self-identify as "feminist" compared to the alignment of their beliefs with various beliefs characterised as "feminist". You get the same problem to a different degree if you ask whether survey participants are atheists, whether they're gay or straight, or indeed even if they are human.
I don't see any indication from this statement, at least, that Debian has a problem with people who choose not to identify as feminist or even those who, (more strongly) choose explicitly to identify as not being feminist.
On the other hand, for a very inclusive definition of feminism as just the belief that men and women deserve equal rights it's easy to imagine potential conflicts for someone who rejects that claim trying to work within Debian. Such a person might feel, for example, that women shouldn't be permitted to vote, or that their votes should count for less when Debian selects a new leader. It's pretty clear that Debian isn't about to change policy on that, and if they can't live with it then probably Debian isn't for them.
Debian can be relatively apolitical. Posted Apr 16, 2012 7:32 UTC (Mon) by gmatht (guest, #58961) [Link]
I agree that we can't tie this up quickly. The thing about diversity is that by its very nature you have to include people from many different walks of life, and to actively include them, you need to understand their point of view. You can't do that quickly.
I also agree that the Debian diversity statement did not exclude non-feminist persons. In my experience, when someone says that they are not a feminist they are no more likely to believe that men are fundamentally better than women (or visa versa), than some who says they are not a Republican means they believe in the divine right of kings. In each case, I have primarily seen the word used to indicate belonging, at least in a broad sense, to some political faction. As such, when used in the negative, it means not being included.
Again, in my experience, the feminist movement is not as inclusive as it may at first appear. While all my acquaintances would have agreed with the statement that men are women are equal, they would be frequently be excluded by various rules about who "true" feminists are. While at a micro level this exclusion could be explained by prejudices in feminists and/or non-feminists, in general political movements need enemies to move against.
Debian is not primarily a political movement so could be more inclusive than Feminism. GW Bush was pretty much considered Feminist public enemy number one for a while, but I can't imagine him opposing Debian giving women the vote. Nor for that matter could I imagine him sitting on Debian IRC harassing women with sexual innuendo. It seems to me that Ms Clinton, Presidents Bush and Obama couldn't all meaningfully join the same political faction, but they should all be able to "contribute constructively" to Debian if they so wished. In general, I imagine personality is more important than politics.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 21:46 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
Your statement seems a bit aluminium hat like with all the strange references such as: "groups", shameful, communist with a capital (why?), "you", outsider vs inner, etc.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 22:16 UTC (Mon) by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955) [Link]
For those who don't know, 'roskegg' is Jonathan/Ted Walther, and he is talking about his own expulsion.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 22:26 UTC (Mon) by apoelstra (subscriber, #75205) [Link]
Ha ha! Then the "libertarian I met in real life" is, in fact, roskegg.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 6:01 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
Yeah. Hi Andrew.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:53 UTC (Tue) by apoelstra (subscriber, #75205) [Link]
Hey Ted.
I'm not sure what slice of history I've walked in on here, but I credit you with making me learn both Lisp and Git when I did, so in my book you're a pretty cool guy.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 20, 2012 9:49 UTC (Fri) by TRauMa (guest, #16483) [Link]
Is this a US thing? They way I understand the word libertarian "I say, make up your mind [women] or we males will eventually make it up for you, the way God intended." is not a compatible statement.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 5:53 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
And Ben Hutchings is a short little English-man with a cowardly disposition.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 7:40 UTC (Tue) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link]
Gee, I wonder whether that attitude in toward dealing with others may have contributed to your expulsion. Diversity doesn't mean tolerating people who cannot or will not collaborate with others, or who seem to take pleasure in disruption.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 7:56 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
The first (and only) time I met Ben Hutchings, he was standing in a group of developers. He scowled at me and gave me the finger. My attitude toward others is that I deserve respect, and I give respect to others until they show they don't deserve it. Ben Hutchings has done nothing to change my perception of him.
As for your little dig about "taking pleasure in disruption", that is you projecting something onto me. Look deep into your own soul. The level of passive-aggressiveness inside Debian is very high, and it was a tremendous balm to my soul to no longer be joined to it.
I never refused to collaborate. There was a group of virulent Debian Developers who didn't like my beliefs, and went out of their way to make my time in Debian uncomfortable. Their refusal to collaborate was not my fault. I didn't force my beliefs on anyone; I joined Debian to do software.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 8:00 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
Should read "he scowled, gave me the finger, then turned away and refused to speak to me." I had no idea who he was, had never met him, and he was treating me like that? That is extremely disrespectful. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and talk things over with him, but he even cut that off.
I base my relationships on honesty, trust, and respect. I give all three. I expect all three. In Debian, there was a core group that didn't follow these principles; they were more interested in having Debian adopt their pet ideologies (sic feminism, etc)
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 8:46 UTC (Tue) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link]
"I base my relationships on honesty, trust, and respect. I give all three."
I've read things you've written about women, and I've read your writings on religion. Anyone who has done likewise will know that statement to be demonstrably untrue.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:01 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
Anyone that reads my writings will be able to see that you are the one saying something untrue. Perhaps you felt disrespected because my publicly stated beliefs contradict your privately held beliefs. Does that justify projecting your feelings onto others?
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:48 UTC (Tue) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link]
I'll tell you what, you keep posting your self-justifications here, and we'll let the LWN readers decide, ok?
I'm not a libertarian fundamentalist who's been kicked out of one of the most tolerant groups on earth for being an colossal arse, so I really don't give a monkey's what you think about me.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:52 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] You know, this seems like as good a time as any to bring this particular conversation to a close. Whatever happened in Mexico or elsewhere is not going to get resolved here. At this point, the existence of a difference of opinion over the project's inclusiveness has been made clear to all LWN readers who have not yet tuned out; do we really need to continue to beat on it? Let's stop, please.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 12, 2012 7:37 UTC (Thu) by rhertzog (subscriber, #4671) [Link]
Yeah, sure... this was all about software and nothing else.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2004/07/msg00217.html
The expulsion was not the result of a single problem but the conflation of multiple incidents that resulted in disruptions among the Debian community.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 12, 2012 15:56 UTC (Thu) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]
Thanks for sharing what this guy means when he uses the word "respect".
Luckily, LWN.net has a KILL file feature by now.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 14, 2012 21:11 UTC (Sat) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
If those posts are why I was expelled from Debian (two years later, mind you) then HOLY SMOKES. That is exactly what I meant. If you don't agree with feminist dogma, then Debian will kick you out.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 16, 2012 11:11 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Don't you even realise that those posts are repulsive, or that others might find them repulsive, or that others might find *you* unpleasant to interact with if you continue to endorse the, to be blunt, slimy as hell views shown therein?
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 10:38 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Are you trying to appear to be fuller of sour grapes than an entire abandoned vineyard? That's how you're coming across...
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:12 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
Debian lured me to Mexico, attacked me at a banquet, then ejected me in the middle of the desert. If not for my friend from the 386BSD team, I would have been up a creek. Sour grapes? Debian was wrong, they acted wrong, and they continue to maintain they were justified.
"Sour grapes" is another of those passive agressive little jibes. It says little, and implies even less about its target. It is consistent with Debian's slippery and innocuous use of words to hide what really goes on.
I say "I want respect". You say "sour grapes". That isn't respectful.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 11, 2012 9:38 UTC (Wed) by rmayr (subscriber, #16880) [Link]
Can you please stop talking about "Debian" as if it was one coherent group? I am also a Debian developer, but have never met you or any of the other involved parties, to the best of my knowledge. However, I somehow identify with Debian, and therefore find it slightly insulting when you state globally that "Debian was wrong and acted wrong". Debian is a diverse group. You might have had a disagreement with some members, but please do not bad-mouth everything that Debian represents because of your disagreement with some individuals.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 19, 2012 14:09 UTC (Thu) by freebird (guest, #43129) [Link]
Dude, you are in the wrong business. My truck broke, my dog ran off with my wife, and Debian lured me to Mehico! You should be writing cryin-in-my-beer songs, not trolling LWN.
Never heard of double-secret kosher. that's a new one.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 10:02 UTC (Tue) by branden (subscriber, #7029) [Link]
Ah, that explains everything.
But that nastiness was quite a few years ago. Has something more recent happened to motivate the articulation of this policy?
Or is this fallout from the Great ApacheCon Boob-Grab that has taken the usual amount of Debian geological time to manifest?
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 13:15 UTC (Tue) by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955) [Link]
You might be able to trace cause and effect back to ApacheCon. However the proposal for this in Debian is only about 2 weeks old: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00048.html
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 17:28 UTC (Tue) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]
Hi Branden,
Utterly the wrong forum for this I know, but I haven't been able to reach you via any other means at all. Could you please contact me via email (daniel@fooishbar.org) or IRC (daniels, OFTC/Freenode) about a licensing issue with some of your code?
Thanks, sorry for the rude interruption all.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 9:46 UTC (Tue) by njwhite (subscriber, #51848) [Link]
> If someone doesn't "engage constructively" with Debian. What does that mean? If they hold an ideology that a group of other Debian members don't like, that would prevent constructive engagement.
That isn't really how I read it. I read it more as "so long as you aren't severely disrupting the direction most in the project want things to go." This is ideology, in that it targets those who are so far outside of the norms of the community as to be very disruptive. But I don't think it's unreasonable at all. I find the diversity statement to be very welcoming.
But then I'm a newcomer to Debian, and am not at all familiar with your falling out with them. Could you elaborate on what happened? I think of Debian as a pretty great community, and it suprises me to see such negativity towards them.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:35 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 9, 2012 22:47 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] Wow. I never thought I'd see a "diversity statement" that's actually sensible rather than politically-correct pablum. Kudos to the Debian team for coming up with such a straightforward no-nonsense statement. Quadruple kudos if/when it's put into practice.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 9:52 UTC (Tue) by stevem (subscriber, #1512) [Link]
We'd like to think it's just documenting existing practice, to be honest.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:14 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
And it does indeed document existing practice very well, for those that read it very carefully. A newcomer could be fooled.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 13:52 UTC (Tue) by samth (subscriber, #1290) [Link]
> I never thought I'd see a "diversity statement" that's actually sensible rather than politically-correct pablum.
Somehow this comment leads me to suspect that you aren't a member of any of the groups typically listed in more comprehensive diversity statements.
The reason that people write "politically-correct pablum" is that in the wider society, and in many groups of technical people, the default attitude taken toward women, LGBT people, people of color, disabled people, and so on is one of hostility and cruelty. Respect is often *not* the "default". It's unsurprising that someone who experienced this repeatedly would want to know that this isn't what they will have to endure in Debian
Comprehensive: of broad scope Posted Apr 10, 2012 14:34 UTC (Tue) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
Usually the word "comprehensive" would mean more, rather than less inclusive. By that definition the Debian statement is pretty much as comprehensive as it could be, in contrast to what dskoll identified as "politically-correct pablum".
Notice that the list you've helpfully provided is highly culturally determined, I wouldn't call that "pablum" myself but I can well understand why dskoll might. At other times or in other places we might have seen featured Communists, Carpetbaggers, Chinese or Catholics. But why make even a partial list when you are supposedly striving for diversity?
Comprehensive: of broad scope Posted Apr 10, 2012 14:51 UTC (Tue) by samth (subscriber, #1290) [Link]
> But why make even a partial list when you are supposedly striving for diversity?
Because members of some groups have come to expect that the default treatment they will receive is overt or implied hostility, and if a group like Debian wants to make itself welcoming, it should make clear that this won't be the case.
This post from Mitchell Baker gives a longer exposition of some of the issues: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.governance/771TaK...
It's certainly true that if you were crafting a diversity statement for a group of Swedish people, you might include "Sami" in the list, which probably doesn't make sense for Debian, and something similar for dalits in a group of Indian people. I'm pretty sure that most Debian contributors are broadly distributed across North America and Europe.
Comprehensive: of broad scope Posted Apr 10, 2012 17:52 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] Because members of some groups have come to expect that the default treatment they will receive is overt or implied hostility, and if a group like Debian wants to make itself welcoming, it should make clear that this won't be the case. I think Debian's statement is resoundingly clear. What part of It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. is not clear? I don't like naming of groups because you get into weird edge-cases. For example, when I was a student there was a motion to reserve a certain number of seats on the student council for "visible minorities". But what exactly is that? I'm Jewish, but not very religious, so I'm "invisible". If I were religious and wore all the garb, would I then be "visible"? How about my kids? My wife is ethnically Chinese (though Canadian by birth) and my kids look somewhat Oriental. Are they "visible" minorities? If they marry westerners so it's harder to tell if their kids are Oriental, will those kids be "visible"? At what point do they become "invisible"? No. Better to avoid the problem the way Debian did and be welcoming to all, regardless of how they identify themselves or are perceived.
Comprehensive: of broad scope Posted Apr 11, 2012 2:04 UTC (Wed) by samth (subscriber, #1290) [Link]
First, I apologize for assuming something incorrect about you.
The reason that statement isn't clear is that (a) it's false, and (b) it's wide open to interpretation, interpretation that seems likely not to go well for people from underrepresented groups.
(a) It's obviously false -- Debian doesn't (at least intentionally) welcome people who are are jerks to everyone. So, you might think, that's just a purely negative characteristic. But what about being fat? Is it ok to criticize people for that? Lots of people think being gay is a negative too.
(b) Relying on interpretation of broad statements is unlikely to work out well. For example, imagine that wrote a bot that said "that's what she said" in an IRC channel with significant frequency (apparently this really happened in some online free software community recently). If a woman complained about that, there's a big difference between having a policy that says "we welcome everyone" and one that says "hostile behavior to women is not ok". The latter is both something to point to when things go bad, and perhaps more importantly, a statement that particular kinds of concerns are taken seriously, concerns that are not often taken seriously in the free software community.
Comprehensive: of broad scope Posted Apr 11, 2012 9:19 UTC (Wed) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
Some people think that the Debian statement above already says people who are "jerks to everyone" aren't welcome because of the next sentence. Evidently you disagree, the most constructive thing you could have done here, rather than boldly claim that it's "obviously false" would be to show clearly why you think so.
Of course some people want to be privileged by being called out as "especially" welcome. But if they're at all interested in diversity they should learn to temper this desire. It's so easy to concentrate on the fact that you are a unique and special snowflake and forget that the same is true of everyone else.
If you were looking for policy about something else (such as what it is or is not OK to write on Debian IRC channels) then the diversity statement is the wrong place. Also absent from this _diversity_ statement are mentions of Debian's Free Software principles, or notices about the importance of not telling other people your passwords for Debian accounts.
Comprehensive: of broad scope Posted Apr 11, 2012 11:09 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (a) It's obviously false -- Debian doesn't (at least intentionally) welcome people who are are jerks to everyone. Hence the qualification as long as they interact constructively with our community which is pretty reasonable. If a woman complained about that, there's a big difference between having a policy that says "we welcome everyone" and one that says "hostile behavior to women is not ok" The "Hostile behavior to women is not ok" statement does not belong in a diversity statement. Rather, it belongs in a code of conduct that prohibits hostile behavior to anyone, sexism, racism, etc, etc.
Comprehensive: of broad scope Posted Apr 12, 2012 10:49 UTC (Thu) by fb (subscriber, #53265) [Link]
> The reason that statement isn't clear is that (a) it's false, and (b) it's wide open to interpretation, interpretation that seems likely not to go well for people from underrepresented groups.
+1
> (b) Relying on interpretation of broad statements is unlikely to work out well. For example, imagine that wrote a bot that said "that's what she said" in an IRC channel with significant frequency (apparently this really happened in some online free software community recently). If a woman complained about that, there's a big difference between having a policy that says "we welcome everyone" and one that says "hostile behavior to women is not ok". The latter is both something to point to when things go bad, and perhaps more importantly, a statement that particular kinds of concerns are taken seriously, concerns that are not often taken seriously in the free software community.
+1
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:57 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] Somehow this comment leads me to suspect that you aren't a member of any of the groups typically listed in more comprehensive diversity statements. Actually, I am. But since membership in the group(s) in question doesn't define who I am, I don't make a big deal about it.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 16:39 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
A more accurate diversity statement would be this:
Debian accepts people without regard to their beliefs, nationality, etc. Due to the fact that Debian is largely funded by large governments and corporations, it cannot accept members who are publicly known to hold controversial beliefs, since this might jeapordize Debian's funding. Governments and corporations are quick to with-hold funding based on guilt by association, and Debian is not an educational institution that offers tenure and academic freedom.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 18:00 UTC (Tue) by micah (subscriber, #20908) [Link]
I'm a debian developer, where do I pick up this government/corporate check?
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 20:00 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
Ask your friendly Swedish Conspiracy.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 10, 2012 21:02 UTC (Tue) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
First, you need to be a citizen in one of the German or Scandinavian countries. Or work for a university. Take a poll of your fellow Debian Developers, see how many are getting government funding.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 11, 2012 16:36 UTC (Wed) by micah (subscriber, #20908) [Link]
I asked all the german and scandanavian ones that I know and none of them were. Care to share your data or methodology for how you determined with such certainty something that I can't seem to verify with my (admittedly small) sample?
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 11, 2012 18:43 UTC (Wed) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
Expand your sample. And explain how you are defining "Government funding". Things that are considered state payouts in North America may not be considered such over there.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 11, 2012 18:51 UTC (Wed) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
As an example of what I mean, students who are attending university are generally having their tuition and living expenses paid by the welfare state in the Scandinavian and Germanic countries. And then the government has special funds for the "hobby" clubs that these students join. To me, that is government funding. The Linux kernel itself was government funded in just such a way.
Then look at the various Debian Developers who work on other projects that are government funded, that tie into their Debian work. Andrei Schuldei comes to mind. Sure, they aren't funding him to work directly on Debian... or are they? It ends up amounting to that, since his product is directly based on Debian. In fact, his distribution is even included in Debian, last time I installed it.
Next, look at the corporate sponsors of Debian. It shouldn't be hard. They are quite big and well known.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 12, 2012 2:55 UTC (Thu) by motk (subscriber, #51120) [Link]
This is a valuable insight into the plight of mental illness and personality disorders. Thank you.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 12, 2012 5:35 UTC (Thu) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]
Wait a minute. For that to work as you seem to imply, these folks would have to be seriously afraid of their tuition being withdrawn by .se/.de/whatnot government for contributing to a project that happens to have you as a contributor. Are you serious? And no, "we owe the government for free tuition, so we'll do whatever it takes to keep it happy" doesn't cut it - the sense of entitlement takes care of that one nicely, negating any kind of "we owe..." sentiments.
Sheesh... I've seen professional victims, but this goes beyond all but a very few of them...
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 12, 2012 9:51 UTC (Thu) by roskegg (subscriber, #105) [Link]
Deny it all you like, I heard such fears expressed in person at Debconf, and earlier on the Debian communication channels.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 14, 2012 8:03 UTC (Sat) by motk (subscriber, #51120) [Link]
I've also heard that you might be a necrophiliac cannibal. Deny it all you like. I've heard it in many reputable channels.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 13, 2012 13:28 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
It's better than that. He said government *or* corporate. So if you're working on Debian while employed by anybody, or a student, or faculty, or employed by any state in any capacity whatsoever, or unemployed and on benefits, or as far as I can tell anything other than living off inherited wealth while explicitly declining all government benefits, you are yourself a sign of Debian's innate decay.
(I don't entirely understand how Debian differs in this respect from RH, or Ubuntu, or Windows, or indeed almost any other human endeavour ever. I suppose if you work on Debian while working for a cartoon supervillain you might be safe, since they rarely bother to set up corporations.)
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 12, 2012 7:52 UTC (Thu) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] As an example of what I mean, students who are attending university are generally having their tuition and living expenses paid by the welfare state in the Scandinavian and Germanic countries. With respect, this is untrue. State universities in Germany for the most part do not charge students tuition, but no way did the »welfare state« pick up my living expenses when I was a student. (Demonstrably needy students can get a certain amount of support but at least part of that must be paid back after graduation. This applies to about 1 student out of 4. On the other hand, about 2 students out of 3 have a part-time job in order to support themselves.)
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 12, 2012 10:47 UTC (Thu) by spaetz (subscriber, #32870) [Link]
>To me, that is government funding. The Linux kernel itself was government funded in just such a way.
And that makes it evil how? Did the Finnish government influence the design of the kernel?
Now, if the whole Internet architecture development were North American government funded, that would have been truly evil. Oh wait.... :-)
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 13, 2012 16:21 UTC (Fri) by micah (subscriber, #20908) [Link]
I think you have proven my point just fine, thanks.
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 12, 2012 5:40 UTC (Thu) by The_Barbarian (subscriber, #48152) [Link]
Cool, thanks for the tip! I hope to be a DD at some point, and I have long thought about a move to Scandinavia anyway!
Debian's diversity statement Posted Apr 11, 2012 16:18 UTC (Wed) by wingo (subscriber, #26929) [Link]
Kudos to Debian. That is a lovely statement.
|
|||||||||||||||||||