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Free is too expensive (Economist)Free is too expensive (Economist)Posted Mar 31, 2012 7:43 UTC (Sat) by Cato (subscriber, #7643)In reply to: Free is too expensive (Economist) by anselm Parent article: Free is too expensive (Economist)
The average Linux application can barely manage to provide a tarball and an Ubuntu/Debian .deb (which will only work on a few recent versions of Ubuntu). This leaves other distros out in the cold, and even slightly older Ubuntu versions can't easily get many apps.
Desktop Linux doesn't need radical innovations. It just needs a stable core and ABI that doesn't change for 5-10 years (like Windows XP) where you can install any application on "Linux Platform 1".
I'm on the cusp of uninstalling desktop Linux having used it as my main desktop for about 5 years now, and after a decade plus of using Linux generally. Mostly because I'm past the phase when spending a lot of time on getting Linux to work was fun, and I just want my desktop PC to work, with all the hardware enabled, no sound problems, no full screen Flash requiring a reboot, no frequent Firefox hangs for 30 sec, etc.
I will still keep Linux for web software development in a VM, but for that I only need a server distro, where Linux is currently much better suited. I will also use desktop Linux for an elderly relative where it has all the applications needed, mostly, and for servers.
It's a great shame - Windows is as prone to viruses as ever since nobody keeps their third party apps up to date. I've had three mass emails recently from Windows trojans, including one from a techie with up to date antivirus. So there is definitely a niche for Linux as something that's more secure than Windows, but supports third party hardware unlike OS X.
One problem with the stable core + app store model for Linux is security updates - without something like Secunia PSI (a free vulnerability alerts and updates tool that's only possible due to funded high-end vulnerability management tools), it could be more painful to ensure that security related updates are done. If the app store tool only does 'update all apps', some vendors will end up taking features away after you have paid for them (infrequent but has happened on the iOS app store).
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Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Mar 31, 2012 23:42 UTC (Sat) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
> Mostly because I'm past the phase when spending a lot of time on getting Linux to work was fun, and I just want my desktop PC to work, with all the hardware enabled, no sound problems, no full screen Flash requiring a reboot, no frequent Firefox hangs for 30 sec, etc.
I'm sorry for you, but which distro are you using? None of my machines (and I use a few) exhibit such problems. All hardware works, no exceptions. No sound problems whatsoever, full screen Flash just works (why would it require a reboot?), and Firefox hasn't crashed any single time in a long time (maybe a year?), but I actually prefer Chromium. Are you sure your motherboard and memory are working OK?
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 1, 2012 0:24 UTC (Sun) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link] You're just lucky. In my experience pulseaudio is enough to turn any machine into a never-ending source of audio problems. I've learned how to get back to a functional sound system when it messes up, but having to do this every 3rd or 4th time I suspend or reboot is way past being fun. Full screen flash works on my laptop screen, but using it on a large monitor tends to lock up the video (various generations of integrated Intel chips) requiring a full reset. I don't see how you can blame Flash problems on the distro, and I don't think any of this can be attributed to hardware problems. Just two examples of really poor software quality, one from each side of the free/closed divide. We suffer either way.
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 1, 2012 5:56 UTC (Sun) by spaetz (subscriber, #32870) [Link]
I`ve had my share of pulseaudio problems a few years back, but never the last years. wifi and graphics still caused problems, but this was always due to nondisclosed specs.
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 1, 2012 8:16 UTC (Sun) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]
I've mostly used Ubuntu 8.04 LTS - here are a few of the problems, all on hardware carefully chosen for reliability (Gigabyte ultra durable etc) and Linux compatibility:
- Ubuntu server - kernel panic due to WiFi driver, had to install kernel from 8.10 - this on a WiFi card chosen for compatibility
- Ubuntu desktop with 11.04 LTS
- Ubuntu desktop (main PC), NVidia 7900 then GTX260:
- frequent hangs/freezes over some months - solved by irqpoll and all_ide_generic on kernel command line
This isn't remotely all the problems, just perhaps the 10% that were most serious. Lots of other problems with sound have caused problems, and my Dell 3115cn printer still won't print with correct size from some applications.
It's not just one PC, nor just one distro version, though it has all been Ubuntu. Since Ubuntu is the most popular Linux distro it's reasonable to assume it should work OK, and most of these versions were LTS which is supposed to be stable - I usually wait 6 months after LTS for key bugs to be fixed.
Meanwhile, Windows 7 is really quite stable - it has some problems on my laptop PC with lots of corporate overhead, but on two other PCs it works rather well. These two are almost never rebooted. I also multi-boot into Windows XP for gaming, which is quite problem free. I do have many more minor application-level problems with the Windows systems, but that's partly due to who's using them (less techie person) or what they are doing (HTPC).
Linux takes a lot less maintenance once it's working correctly (easy apt-get type updates, no need to reboot, no antivirus overhead), but Windows in my experience is much easier to get working with all hardware functioning correctly, working full screen Flash, etc.
I am quite geeky e.g. building own kernel occasionally, getting a small fix into Apache 2.0, writing wiki code, etc.
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 1, 2012 12:55 UTC (Sun) by wertigon (guest, #42963) [Link]
My experience is the exact opposite.
I usually get Ubuntu working within an hour, another hour to install all the neccessary software I need, and then maybe 2-4 hours more to hunt down any additional problems (getting WiFi to work, Suspend/Resume, sound maybe...) - and those problems become less and less with each release.
Windows, in contrast, take around 1 hour to install, one more hour to locate all drivers to non-functioning hardware and peripherals (and try to avoid installing the associated crapware in the process), and then I have to spend several hours installing the software I use (again dodging a slew of crapware).
Not saying either is better, but both ecosystems have their faults.
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 1, 2012 15:59 UTC (Sun) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link]
"It's not just one PC, nor just one distro version, though it has all been Ubuntu. Since Ubuntu is the most popular Linux distro it's reasonable to assume it should work OK, and most of these versions were LTS which is supposed to be stable - I usually wait 6 months after LTS for key bugs to be fixed."
You make two assumptions: That Ubuntu should have the least problems among distros and that their LTS version actually provides bug fixes and back ports. Unfortunately for you, you are wrong on both assumptions.
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 1, 2012 16:05 UTC (Sun) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]
Ubuntu has got worse over the years, but this illustrates the problem with desktop Linux - if the most popular distro is actually a bad choice, you need to be even more expert to choose the right one (and configure it, as Ubuntu is generally easy to set up, though with too many bugs).
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 1, 2012 19:04 UTC (Sun) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link]
I think this illustrates the problems with Ubuntu, and what Ubuntu promises its users. I do not know what the "desktop Linux" community can do about that.
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 2, 2012 11:01 UTC (Mon) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link] Ubuntu isn't alone. Problems like this appear on every distribution, old stable and brand new... and they're usually never fixed. The answer, instead, is to upgrade to the new release which may have fixes and certainly breaks other things.
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 2, 2012 10:47 UTC (Mon) by Seegras (subscriber, #20463) [Link]
> It just needs a stable core and ABI that doesn't change for 5-10 years
> (like Windows XP) where you can install any application on "Linux Platform > 1".
And what exactly is part of that ABI? Some hundreds of libraries? You expect those not being updated for years?
By the way, XP doesn't have "a stable ABI" either. Every program comes bundled with a shitload of libraries, even system-libraries, so it can run on XP. So the whole point is moot, unless you propose everything to bundle its own librabry or link statically.
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 2, 2012 14:47 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
>And what exactly is part of that ABI? Some hundreds of libraries?
Windowing toolkit, audio, video, 3D, base system.
>You expect those not being updated for years?
Microsoft does this just fine with Win32 ABI.
Free is too expensive (Economist) Posted Apr 2, 2012 15:22 UTC (Mon) by jedidiah (guest, #20319) [Link]
Part of Linux is choice.
If you choose to not be the target market for the kinds of developers that provide this mythical sort of web installation experience that doesn't really exist for Windows either, then that's your choice.
A Gentoo user should not be surprised that game developers are not catering to them.
Linux gives you the ability to shoot yourself in the foot. You should not then whine afterwards because you think your foot is bleeding.
If you want a Mac, then buy a Mac. Clearly you don't value the wide array of meaningful choices that something like Linux distributions offer. Don't destroy something just because you don't understand the alternatives.
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