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H.264 support coming to Firefox

Mitchell Baker and Brendan Eich have both posted articles explaining the decision by the Mozilla project to add support for the H.264 video codec in Firefox if the underlying platform provides it. "What I do know for certain is this: H.264 is absolutely required right now to compete on mobile. I do not believe that we can reject H.264 content in Firefox on Android or in B2G and survive the shift to mobile. Losing a battle is a bitter experience. I won’t sugar-coat this pill. But we must swallow it if we are to succeed in our mobile initiatives. Failure on mobile is too likely to consign Mozilla to decline and irrelevance."

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H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 17:12 UTC (Mon) by b7j0c (guest, #27559) [Link] (3 responses)

oh well they tried to fight the good fight for a while. h264 is still a patent minefield. one day, someone will be lose their foot.

despite what eich says in his post, it isn't a matter of just waiting for the patents to expire. the mpeg group is busy working on creating new codecs which may have some minor technical advantage, but will mostly serve to extend their patents further into the future. probably the only change that can alleviate this situation is a full-scale retroactive change in the patent system itself.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 17:51 UTC (Mon) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link] (2 responses)

That's why key part of the war against MPEG-LA is not expiration time, but wider adoption of open codecs, primarily in hardware. Hardware is moving in that direction, albeit slowly. So H.264 won't be "the standard" in hardware decoding forever.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 19:13 UTC (Mon) by gmaxwell (guest, #30048) [Link] (1 responses)

Like has happened with MPEG-2 I expect they'll raise the effective fees until H.265 is more attractive than H.264.

They already raised the annual cap from $5m to $6.5m/yr in the last licensing update. The per-unit fees are subject to a 10% increase per-cycle limit, but the annual caps are not... and the annual caps are what matter to the major parties that really drive compatibility requirements. This will be doubly effective with many of the major hardware vendors being H.265 licensors and all of them eager to keep the users on the hardware upgrade hamster wheel.

MPEG-LA will also continue to add patents to the pool in order to extend the its life. This has been seen with MPEG2— it originally had ~27 patents and now has almost a thousand (and more than 130 US patents, so the increase isn't just from catching international variants). We'll see the same with H.264/AVC, in fact, last year they added three recently granted patents to the essential patent list from just Apple alone.

We've also got room for a good two full codec generations before the current AVC pool begins to expire in earnest.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 20:13 UTC (Mon) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]

Shouldn't it push hardware vendors (like chipset makers who implement video decoding) to use open codecs even sooner? They'll avoid any fees and will produce cheaper hardware in result.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 17:19 UTC (Mon) by Zizzle (guest, #67739) [Link] (25 responses)

Slippery slope to a closed web?

"Just let this one patented non-royalty-free technology in because everyone is using it" -- how long before the next?

Hollywood DRM here we come?

Surely Apple, Google and MS must be pleased by this. All they have to do is gain a threshold of market share with a proprietary technology and the biggest supported of the open web will capitulate and support it.

So Mozilla is caring less about the open web, and more about "It’s time to focus on shipping products people can love now". Can Mozilla exist as an open source project if the foundation protocols of the web are patented?

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 17:58 UTC (Mon) by rillian (subscriber, #11344) [Link]

Surely Apple, Google and MS must be pleased by this. All they have to do is gain a threshold of market share with a proprietary technology and the biggest supported of the open web will capitulate and support it.

I'm sure they are, but you make it sound easier than it was. Various companies have been trying that approach to audio and video on the Web since...about 1995. Remember RealPlayer? For that matter, remember WMV? Very large organizations have been trying this strategy for a very long time. Even h.264 is a compromise in that it's a shared standard, not a single-sourced proprietary offering.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 19:05 UTC (Mon) by kripkenstein (guest, #43281) [Link] (10 responses)

> Surely Apple, Google and MS must be pleased by this. All they have to do is gain a threshold of market share with a proprietary technology and the biggest supported of the open web will capitulate and support it.

Not a threshold, but a dominating position. The articles spell out the situation: WebM is in a hopeless position compared to H.264. It had some promise, but none of the planned moves by Google or Adobe that were meant to promote it actually happened.

But yes, even that is depressing: If Apple, Google and MS take a proprietary technology and promote it to a dominant position, Mozilla and Opera will be forced to support it. That is sad but true, if you ignore a dominant technology, you will become irrelevant, even if it is nonstandard, proprietary or patented. Becoming irrelevant isn't an option for Mozilla and Opera, because they would then lose any ability to promote open standards altogether.

The only defense against this is to prevent nonstandard, proprietary or patented technologies from becoming dominant on the web. We need to keep WebRTC open, oppose NaCl, research new next-gen video and audio codecs, fight Apple's patents on multitouch events, strengthen OIN, etc etc. This is a constant struggle.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 19:28 UTC (Mon) by davide.del.vento (guest, #59196) [Link] (4 responses)

> WebM is in a hopeless position compared to H.264.
> It had some promise, but none of the planned moves
> by Google or Adobe that were meant to promote it
> actually happened.

Exactly how WebM is hopeless? IIRC, most of the video on the web are coming out of youtube and they are available as webm. HW support for it is coming, but of course hw is slow, so some more time is needed.

Last, but not least, it's sad to see firefox too putting mobile ahead of everything else (after KDE and GNOME doing so). As a heavy desktop person, who doesn't have or care for a smartphone, this is very annoying.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 19:49 UTC (Mon) by Zizzle (guest, #67739) [Link] (1 responses)

Agreed. The argument is that H.264 is dominant.

Ok, how did that happen. Apple.

But there are far more Androids sold than iStuff.

So really it's down to google. They followed Apple, didn't do what they said they would with WebM.

The open web loses.

Google could transcode Youtube to WebM, drop H.264 in Chrome (no a big deal - still have the flash fallback), and start pushing Android handset makers to support HW WebM. Surely it would be cheaper for the handset maker too.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 22:09 UTC (Mon) by kripkenstein (guest, #43281) [Link]

Yes, the real problem is that Google gave up on WebM. I have no idea why it did. It had a viable strategy, in part with Adobe, but never followed through. So H.264 wins, sadly for all of us.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 19, 2012 20:32 UTC (Mon) by kripkenstein (guest, #43281) [Link] (1 responses)

> Exactly how WebM is hopeless? IIRC, most of the video on the web are coming out of youtube and they are available as webm.

As one of the TFAs noted, only ad-free content on YouTube is WebM. But almost everything popular has ads (sometimes because nefarious organizations claim copyright to works they don't own, there was a sad case of this with birdsong a few weeks back in the news).

> HW support for it is coming, but of course hw is slow, so some more time is needed.

It has been several years, and still no shipping hardware. We can continue to hope for that, but the company that holds the keys to utilizing that hardware is Google, who controls YouTube and Android. But Google has not even removed H.264 from Chrome on desktop which it promised. So Google's commitment to WebM hardware is uncertain at best.

> Last, but not least, it's sad to see firefox too putting mobile ahead of everything else (after KDE and GNOME doing so). As a heavy desktop person, who doesn't have or care for a smartphone, this is very annoying.

Agreed, I'm a heavy desktop person without a smartphone too. Proud owner of a (almost always off) dumbphone. We are relics of an earlier age, though, if you look at the numbers ;) so it isn't surprising KDE, GNOME, Mozilla, Google, Microsoft, Apple are all focusing on mobile these days.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 19:08 UTC (Tue) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link]

I wouldn't say that either GNOME or KDE focus on mobile.

Both communities take steps to widen their portfolio towards mobile, e.g. by making UI and application cores less interdependent and thus allowing mobile UIs to use the same core.

I would bet that a majority of contributors do not even own a device that would make a viable host for the application they are working on.

If mobile were a priority for more than a handful of developers we would see way larger availability of GNOME and KDE apps in mobile app stores.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 0:09 UTC (Tue) by Zack (guest, #37335) [Link] (4 responses)

>>If Apple, Google and MS take a proprietary technology and promote it to a dominant position, Mozilla and Opera will be forced to support it.

How so ? Mozilla, as I understand it, is a non-profit. So they don't have the usual "fiduciary responsibilities" cop-out. They aren't forced to support anything that would go against their mission statement.

>>That is sad but true, if you ignore a dominant technology, you will become irrelevant, even if it is nonstandard, proprietary or patented.

>>The only defense against this is to prevent nonstandard, proprietary or patented technologies from becoming dominant on the web.

The first logical step for this prevention would be, in my opinion, to not support it.

>>Becoming irrelevant isn't an option for Mozilla and Opera, because they would then lose any ability to promote open standards altogether.

In my opinion Mozilla's claim to fame in the current world of many fast competitive browsers, is being the champion of an open and unencumbered web.
If they can't do that, they're quickly becoming irrelevant already.

If they feel they are in not a position where they can say "no" to supporting known software patents, the current greatest threat to software freedoms, as a part of the web, what's the reason for their existence ? To produce a very popular browser ? There are several takers doing a good job in that department already.

I also feel that "irrelevant" and "less popular" are being used interchangeably in most arguments concerning this decision, even though they're not, and it confuses any argument.
They could become "less popular" for the time being, but I doubt very much they would become completely "irrelevant".

I understand Mozilla's predicament to a certain extent, but I don't feel pandering to commercial interests was in their (and our) own long term benefit in this case.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 0:42 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

by your logic, Mozilla should never have supported Flash.

However, not doing so would have meant that Mozilla would only get used by pureists, and would probably have died by now due to the lack of users.

If you don't have users, it doesn't matter how 'pure' you are, you have no influence.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 1:40 UTC (Tue) by lab (guest, #51153) [Link]

I think you nailed it there. Still, it's kind of a rock/hard-place situation, without a lot of happy faces.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 9:58 UTC (Tue) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]

Flash is a different situation. It was a hangover from a previous era, when Mozilla had little opportunity to shape the future of the web.

HTML5 was supposed to be different.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 11:21 UTC (Tue) by Zack (guest, #37335) [Link]

>>by your logic, Mozilla should never have supported Flash.

As I understand it, Flash is a proprietary program, and as such, it can be worked around. But acknowledging software patents to be a legitimate part of an open web is something different.

>>However, not doing so would have meant that Mozilla would only get used by pureists, and would probably have died by now due to the lack of users.

Mozilla's mission says nothing about keeping Mozilla alive.

It is implied by many that the worst that could happen is that Mozilla would cease to exist, or its influence would wane. But the purpose, in my opinion, of Mozilla, is not Mozilla itself, it's their mission.

>>If you don't have users, it doesn't matter how 'pure' you are, you have no influence.

Users may come and go, but "supporters" (of a free and unencumbered web, for example) usually stick around, because they appreciate the deeper significance of what you're trying to achieve, even if 'success' is not imminent. But if you change/compromise on what you're trying to achieve *and* you fall behind in development (which is not unthinkable given the giants they're up against in the browser arena, especially if one of those giants basically pays for your own development) prompting your normal users to leave, you're left with nothing.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 9:48 UTC (Tue) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link] (12 responses)

"Just let this one patented non-royalty-free technology in because everyone is using it"

Well, how about

"Let's use this free technology, in the hopes nobody has gotten a patent on it"?

And it's important to see that both these choices are equal. "This one patented technology" is actually the same as "this technology somebody asserts patents against". The patent-assertions are NOT proven, same as in "this technology nobody asserts patents against YET". In front of the law, both are the same until it gets into court and the assertions are proven.
Either way, you loose. You even loose when NOT using the technology.

So clearly, these patents are totally irreleveant. Its actually proven that you can't even research the patents you might violate: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2016968
The only thing you can do is to ignore them, no matter if anyone claims some technology is covered by patents or not.

Now, with regards to software, we've got another thing: Software Patents are not valid. None of them. All are invalid. And this they are in just about EVERY jurisdiction. Not just because most jurisdiction prohibit patents on software, but because every jurisdiction prohibits mathematics from being patented. And ALL software-patents are patents on math, mathematically provable: http://web.archive.org/web/20190903160051/http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110426051819346
True, there is some misunderstanding in the courts and patent offices regarding this, but from a scientific point of view, the courts just did the equivalent of defining lightning as "punishment from god". And I don't think they'll be able to uphold that view for much longer.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 15:38 UTC (Tue) by gmaxwell (guest, #30048) [Link] (11 responses)

You've presented a general argument which may be applicable to many things, but I do not think it is applicable here.

In this case it is the contributing authors/inventors of the H.264 standard who have created these patents—not some random trolls.

Even if H.264 was especially uninventive, they could always patent the detailed interactions of trivial but essential details: "code this bit after that bit and multiply by two". It's possible that a few—many, perhaps—of the patents are inapplicable due to mistakes in their drafting or are invalid due to prior art. But there are thousands of them, with tens of thousands of claims total. It is inconceivable—considering the quantity and that these are patents by the authors of the format in question—that all the claims would be invalid or inapplicable.

Moreover, these patents are actively and successfully enforced. This is not a hypothetical risk, and the enforcement you hear about is the minority where NDAs didn't manage to hide the existence of the enforcement entirely. Many parties, including powerful ones (who could afford a patent fight), find the threat credible enough to pay up. Indeed, if you receive a legal threat for H.264 and you ask an attorney for advice you will be told to _SETTLE_: there is no question of fighting these patents.

It's also the case that you won't find anyone competent claiming that the patents are inapplicable—quite the opposite: patents are only included in the MPEG-LA pools after review by an independent expert who appraises them to be essential. The inclusion of a non-essential patent would violate the process MPEG-LA laid out for the DOJ in their business process review. This process might be corrupt rubbish, but its existence surely raises the bar for someone who wants to waive away applicability.

It might be another matter if you had some H.264 implementation where the authors were saying "we carefully worked around all the patents and didn't implement parts of the specification that we couldn't work around"—but we don't have that here. The best you can get from the authors of open source H.264 implementations is "We don't know, we read the specs by the authors of the patents, not the patents themselves." but more commonly they too just tell you that you need licensing.

Unlike WebM, a practicing entity who would seek to enforce these patents is not even potentially impeded by retaliation clause-enabled licensing—they're free to enforce. Every person who adopts H.264 in the hope they'll be left alone is another target that any of the patent holders of the format (or other parties) can pick and choose from to maximize their revenue.

Sometimes, often even, ignoring patent risks is prudent—it's just too hard and ineffective to look—but here even an idiot wouldn't consider this riskless. The work has been done, the patents found applicable by experts, which should come as no shock because this is all by design. Sometimes ignoring patents is a productive act of civil disobedience. But in this case? In this case ignoring the patents is just helping to feed the monster—your use of his formats builds network effects that provide him an endless stream of tasty victims.

As an aside, it seems you've fallen into a common misunderstanding with respect to "software patents". "Software patent" is a term of art referring to patents drafted without any reference to a physical embodiment, basically the same thing as business method patents. Most codec patents are not "software patents"; rather than purely abstract language they write claims like "A decoder comprising:" or "A computer readable medium storing a computer program that is executable by at least one processor". These claims are not "software patents" as they refer to real devices which perform tangible actions, but you can infringe, or induce people to infringe, via software all the same.

(Actual software patents are a problem for Free Software too—they're what enable the patenting of abstract applicationless concepts of linked lists and suchlike things. But when you connect an idea with a concrete real world impacting application—producing a machine or transformation, if you will—you have something patentable.)

This is one reason why H.264's pool can contain over two thousand patents from 53 distinct countries (AT:36, AU:35, BE:34, BG:15, CA:24, CH:32, CN:129, CY:13, CZ:27, DE:82, DK:33, EE:13, ES:57, FI:40, FR:82, GB:81, GR:22, HK:29, HU:21, ID:27, IE:27, IL:1, IN:18, IS:1, IT:64, JP:530, KR:190, LI:32, LT:1, LU:13, LV:1, MC:12, MT:1, MX:36, MY:13, NL:63, NO:1, NZ:1, PH:1, PL:1, PT:28, RO:11, RU:18, SE:45, SG:12, SI:17, SK:16, TH:1, TR:28, TW:21, US:291, VN:3, ZA:1), even though "software patents" are more impermissible in some places than others. And perhaps most importantly: there is a presumption of validity for granted patents. The US Supreme Court recently had the opportunity to deny patent protection for software and, although they narrowed business method patents, clearly and explicitly stopped short of excluding software.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the courts are bound by computer science navel-gazing. We define the tomato to be a vegetable for the purpose of commerce. This isn't because the lawmakers are ignorant of botany—it's because the law is concerned with achieving the 'correct' legal and social effect. Software-powered systems are the core of many of the most valuable and important inventions today. The same kind of autistic but-software-is-math arguments could easily be extended to argue that anything is math: "But what is a cotton gin but an arrangement of atoms, which could be run on a molecular simulator with the same behavior—it's just math! unpatentable!". The courts say "Nonsense! This is clearly an invention with measurable, commercially significant applications and influence on the real world; the application of these techniques are patentable like any other invention, and to do otherwise would moot the system."

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 17:30 UTC (Tue) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (6 responses)

The same kind of autistic but-software-is-math arguments

There are several kinds of argument against patents from the philosophical and the ethical to the economic and the political, and I don't see any need for anyone to abstain from using any one or more of these kinds of argument if that's what they identify with. (Personally, I prefer making ethical arguments because it makes the injustice of the system more obvious to casual observers.)

There's certainly no need to be offensive about someone choosing, in this case, to make a philosophical argument regardless of whether or not you think it will influence a judge on the topic.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 19:04 UTC (Tue) by gmaxwell (guest, #30048) [Link] (5 responses)

> There's certainly no need to be offensive about someone choosing, in this case, to make a philosophical argument regardless of whether or not you think it will influence a judge on the topic.

My apologies to anyone I offended there— the barb was made out of irritation at the many discussions I've had where the other side simply kept repeating the fact that "software is math" as though I were some idiot to not know it while simultaneously suggesting this fact to be a major revelation which obviously settled the matter completely.

It is not so— but for some reason, some people can't seem to get over that idea that some rule so fundamental to their science is more or less irrelevant to the law. I wished to head off that argument preemptively by making the claim that its so useless an argument that anyone who can't get past it is suffering from mental dysfunction. To argue it once as a point of consideration— fine, it was rude of me to paint everyone with that broad brush.

The core point remains: Software-is-math-thus-not-patentable-under-the-rules is not a good argument or even a novel one. The courts have considered ideas of this kind many times before and discarded them for the reason I described: "petitioner['s] [...] argument that if everything other than the algorithm is determined to be old in the art, then the claim cannot recite statutory subject matter [...] To accept the analysis proffered by the petitioner would, if carried to its extreme, make all inventions unpatentable because all inventions can be reduced to underlying principles of nature which, once known, make their implementation obvious" (Diamond v. Diehr)

I would gladly agree with you on almost any ethical ground you offered— but the courts generally leave it to congress to create systems and define their contours, only intervening when the injustice is particularly great. They have had many opportunities to intervene in this area and they have carefully avoided doing so. I do not have the slightest disagreement that our patent system needs massive reforms relative to how patents are applied to software.

But such reforms seem nowhere in sight, the system we have is the system we have— socially ideal or not— and in this system the unlicensed use of H.264 is so thoroughly clear a violation that it creates no practical opportunity to chip away at the boundaries. Distributing H.264 under the guise of willful ignorance only serves to entrench the existing system by enriching its beneficiaries through enhanced network effect and by denying marketshare to competing alternatives which are unencumbered or at least less-obviously-encoumbered enough that litigation over them would bring the opportunity of improving the system.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 19:55 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (3 responses)

> The courts have considered ideas of this kind many times before and discarded them for the reason I described: "petitioner['s] [...] argument that if everything other than the algorithm is determined to be old in the art, then the claim cannot recite statutory subject matter [...] To accept the analysis proffered by the petitioner would, if carried to its extreme, make all inventions unpatentable because all inventions can be reduced to underlying principles of nature which, once known, make their implementation obvious" (Diamond v. Diehr)

Simply put, the court was wrong. They created a straw-man argument--that knowledge of the underlying principles makes all inventions obvious--and based their conclusion on that rather than the actual argument. If an invention is truly obvious to anyone who understands the underlying natural principles, then the patent *shouldn't* be granted. There is no public *benefit*, either in the form of an incentive for inventing or public disclosure, to granting such a patent, only public *cost*. However, it is not true that knowledge of the principles of nature is enough to make an invention obvious. It is precisely non-obvious applications of known principles which patents are supposed to cover.

Evaluating an algorithm on a device specifically designed to evaluate algorithms is always obvious. Taking a bit of math which you could evaluate in your head, and evaluating it on a computer, is an *obvious* application of known principles, regardless of the specific algorithm.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 20:37 UTC (Tue) by gmaxwell (guest, #30048) [Link] (2 responses)

> Simply put, the court was wrong. They created a straw-man argument--that knowledge of the underlying principles makes all inventions obvious--and based their conclusion on that rather than the actual argument.

I think you're making a strawman from my limited quote— I apologize if I encouraged that.

The court has a nuanced view of the subject— they start by saying 'well, you can't argue that because its reduceable to natural law it's not patentable' and effectively continue 'so we have to figure out where the boundary is'.

For the latest in the court's views, I recommend today's Mayo v. Prometheus: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-1150.pdf (which is perhaps interesting for this discussion in light of the fact that they solidly avoided adding any new explicit tests or criteria, but decided against patentability on the basis of the same case law I was quoting).

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 20:50 UTC (Tue) by shmerl (guest, #65921) [Link]

This boundary will never be clearly ironed out. However software patents need to be abolished on the basis that they go against the purpose of the patent law itself - i.e. they don't promote knowledge and inventions and instead stifle the progress.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 21:19 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

>>> "To accept the analysis proffered by the petitioner would, if carried to its extreme, make all inventions unpatentable because all inventions can be reduced to underlying principles of nature which, once known, make their implementation obvious"

>> Simply put, the court was wrong. They created a straw-man argument--that knowledge of the underlying principles makes all inventions obvious--and based their conclusion on that rather than the actual argument.

> I think you're making a strawman from my limited quote--I apologize if I encouraged that.

Are you saying that you misquoted the court? If not, their words are fairly clear, and stand on their own. The phrase "if carried to its extreme" alone is a clear sign that what follows is likely to be a straw-man argument.

> ... they start by saying 'well, you can't argue that because its reduceable to natural law it's not patentable'

Which is also wrong. If a patent can be reduced to nothing more than natural law then it *shouldn't* be granted. Natural law, like math, is one of the excluded subject matters. The laws themselves, like all mathematical formulas and algorithms, are never non-obvious or novel; they pre-exist the patent, and should be considered public knowledge from the start. The patent can only be justified on the basis of the new knowledge it discloses, i.e. a novel and non-obvious *application*.

Given any algorithm, the evaluation of said algorithm "on a computer" may be a novel application, but is never non-obvious. Evaluating algorithms--*any* algorithms--is the entire point of a computer. For that reason alone, software patents (with or without "on a computer") should never be granted. They disclose nothing which was not perfectly obvious before.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 23:03 UTC (Tue) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

My apologies to anyone I offended there— the barb was made out of irritation at the many discussions I've had where the other side simply kept repeating the fact that "software is math" as though I were some idiot to not know it while simultaneously suggesting this fact to be a major revelation which obviously settled the matter completely.

I agree that mere repetition of arguments without bringing about any revelation is of limited benefit. It's important to put such arguments into context, provide examples, and so on. On the other hand, it's a lot of work to do so on every occasion.

I would gladly agree with you on almost any ethical ground you offered— but the courts generally leave it to congress to create systems and define their contours, only intervening when the injustice is particularly great.

The courts are arguably the wrong place to change any of this: as people often point out, everyone is just practising or exercising the law and have to do what it says, give or take the nuances of interpretation. It is far better to seek to change the law. That is when the ethical arguments need to be made.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 21:04 UTC (Tue) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (3 responses)

> The same kind of autistic but-software-is-math arguments could easily be extended to argue that anything is math: "But what is a cotton gin but an arrangement of atoms, which could be run on a molecular simulator with the same behavior—it's just math! unpatentable!".

Wow! Maybe you should then try processing some cotton on that molecular simulator.

The rule that math is not patentable does not come from "autistic" arguments by programmers. It comes from the law itself.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 23:54 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

At this point of time pointing out that software is just a form of math and math is not patentable would probably result in math _becoming_ patentable.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 21, 2012 1:23 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (1 responses)

It already is, actually. See eHarmony patents, for example.

Yeah, sad.

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 21, 2012 16:12 UTC (Wed) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link]

>It already is, actually. See eHarmony patents, for example.

Or Penrose tiling

H.264 support coming to Firefox

Posted Mar 20, 2012 1:15 UTC (Tue) by leif81 (guest, #75132) [Link] (1 responses)

>explaining the decision by the Mozilla project to add support for the H.264
>video codec in Firefox if the underlying platform provides it.

This sounds like an attempt at keeping clean hands. But, if the underlying platform is B2G then Mozilla's hands are far from clean.

B2G, clean hands?

Posted Mar 20, 2012 9:18 UTC (Tue) by skierpage (guest, #70911) [Link]

I'm not sure what you're saying, but Brendan is clear:

With Firefox’s desktop users, a better Firefox for Android, and especially B2G on phones this year, we have a shot at surviving and even thriving. That shot won’t happen if we renounce H.264 on mobile. No B2G phones, not enough Firefox on Android adoption.
...
If we renounce H.264, most users won’t adopt Firefox on Android. As for B2G without H.264, we won’t even get on phones. Our partners won’t even try WebM-only.

I encourage you to take Boot to Gecko source and make a "clean hands" version of it with no proprietary codecs. Hell, I'll even root my devices to use it. But you will get nowhere with most users and will have no phone partners considering your efforts.


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