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If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica)
Ars technica digs into the history of touchscreen interfaces and phones to show that Apple (and Android) built on the shoulders of giants. In particular, prior art is shown for many of the "innovations" claimed by Apple, like slide-to-unlock and the pinch gesture. "By February 2006, [Jeff] Han brought a number of these ideas together to create a suite of multitouch applications that he presented in a now-famous TED talk. He showed off a photo-viewing application that used the "pinch" gesture to re-size and rotate photographs; it included an on-screen keyboard for labeling photos. He also demonstrated an interactive map that allowed the user to pan, rotate, and zoom with dragging and pinching gestures similar to those used on modern smartphones."
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If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 1:37 UTC (Fri) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]
As the article aptly points, this is the story of human invention. There's always someone else that did it before, but there's always someone that made it happen for everybody else. That latter in this case is most certainly Jobs.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 3:05 UTC (Fri) by ncm (subscriber, #165) [Link]
That said, it doesn't mean they deserve a state-enforced monopoly on the techniques they stole and popularized. Kim Carnes doesn't own "Bette Davis Eyes", and Bob Dylan doesn't own "Mr. Bojangles".
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 25, 2012 2:24 UTC (Sat) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link]
Please don't use the word 'stole'. It's not stealing, no matter who is doing it.
Copying, re-using and adapting good ideas is a _good_thing_. It always has been. We want good ideas to spread. The whole meme that this activity should be labeled 'stealing' is wrong, and we shouldn't be spreading it.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 26, 2012 18:14 UTC (Sun) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
Something like that.
This sort of thing is what I think of as 'Lawyering'. It's the use of mixed metaphors and analogies that is used to confuse people. They are used to present circular arguments and assumption logic with a air of logical simplicity while they are obviously erroneous if presented in a direct manner.
That is why they use 'stolen', 'theft', 'piracy', etc etc. It seems simple enough. But it's not. It's lies and and deception.
Any sort of discussion involving so-called 'intellectual property' is rife with these sort of 'lawyering' tactics. It's very irritating and makes it almost impossible to have a proper discussion of it. People apt to repeat straw arguments, bad analogies, and mystical/magical thinking over and over again as logical defense for copyrights and patents.
etc. etc. etc. I could go on all day.
In reality all this 'IP' bullshit really amounts to is a attempt to create a thin layer of legitimacy for various cynical and self-aware political forces that desire to use of Government force to reduce competition, ensure profitability over obsolete business models, and control the actions and lives of millions of people and hundreds of thousands of businesses to achieve those aims. blah blah blah.
It is really quite terrible.
On a side note:
http://mises.org/media/2434/What-Is-Fascism
I think that it's critical that all Americans understand that fascism is not just epithet.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 27, 2012 1:03 UTC (Mon) by dag- (subscriber, #30207) [Link]
Wouldn't it be stealing if you take the idea of someone else, and then implement and patent the implementation to make it hard for others to implement the same idea ?
Maybe we need another word for this, maybe *murder* is a better word. They *murdered* ideas they learned from someone else. Happy now ?
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 27, 2012 8:38 UTC (Mon) by blujay (guest, #39961) [Link]
No, it wouldn't be stealing--it would be immoral (the patenting of it), but not stealing. Ideas cannot be stolen--they can only be discovered, shared, or kept secret.
I think that "kidnapped" might be the most apt term for what you described.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 27, 2012 11:55 UTC (Mon) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link] Fun fact: the method you just described was patented by Halliburton.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 27, 2012 20:41 UTC (Mon) by karthik_s1 (subscriber, #60525) [Link]
I think that patent(if awarded) could be invalidated by showing prior art.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 3:06 UTC (Fri) by JoeF (guest, #4486) [Link]
That may be, but that doesn't mean other phones stole from the iPhone.
And in particular, prior art should invalidate patents. Case in point is the "slide-to-unlock" thing. Apple may be able to claim first-to-market, but they really should stop claiming Android was stolen from them.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 22:16 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953) [Link]
They had the gall to claim speech based search was theres as well when Android had it years before Apple did. It seems that any feature Apple adds is immediately theres regardless of history. They are an arrogant company and point to a sincere problem with the patent system.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 8:04 UTC (Fri) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]
Well most if not all of the stuff being talked about here does not really deserve to be called "invention".
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 11:50 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] There's always someone else that did it before, but there's always someone that made it happen for everybody else. That latter in this case is most certainly Jobs. Nope, that's Google. Jobs is like Edison. And I don't mean "idolized imaginary Edison", but the real one. Who "invented" (actually borrowed) lightbulb… and then spent years trying to stifle further development of it (in the case where real inventor was obvious Edison formed joint company). Who invented electricity distribution… and then spent the rest of his life trying to make sure noone else will do anything better (the last inefficient Edison's DC station was closed in XXI century!). Who invented motion pictures… and controlled them so much that industry quite literally run to the other side of the continent to avoid endless lawsuits (that's how Hollywood was formed and that's why it's on west coast, not on east one). P.S. It's ironic how easily Hollywood (which started as bunch of mass violators) forgot about it's roots - but that's separate history.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 13:08 UTC (Fri) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link]
I think you read the pirate bay and just mirrored it here.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MpmX...
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 14:12 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] History of Hollywood is not exactly a big secret, but I'm not talking about Hollywood here. This is just a side-note. I'm talking about inventors who use ideas of others then turn around and say "I want you to stop using our ideas". In the end they do more harm then good and I still don't understand where do them come from: do they really believe they have some god-given right to innovate at the expense of others or are they just greedy?
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 22:30 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953) [Link]
Gotta love Edison and his craziness (yet still held up as the inventor everyone should aspire to be). He went out of his way to destroy Tesla, both professionally and personally such that Tesla had no choice but to sell his soul to Westinghouse (and end up penniless). Edison didn't want AC to succeed so badly he invented the electric chair and publicly electrocuted cats to try to stifle the adoption of AC distribution. Pretty much any field he got involved in he went out of his way to destroy the competition including personal attacks.
The similarity between Edison's actions and how Jobs approached things speaks volumes about how big of an asshole Jobs was and how destructive Jobs could be to markets and competition if given the chance.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 20:14 UTC (Fri) by wahern (subscriber, #37304) [Link]
There's a quote in science: "A theory is named after the last person who failed to cite their predecessors."
So it is with inventions.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 20:19 UTC (Fri) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]
That's gold.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 20:27 UTC (Fri) by wahern (subscriber, #37304) [Link]
For the record, I read the quote in "Rationality for Mortals: How People Cope with Uncertainty (Evolution and Cognition)".
It's a horribly written book. Basically a bunch of conference papers thrown together. There are several interesting arguments and ideas, though. But it's a classic publish-and-forget book, not one where the author strove to refine his theories.
Stigler's law Posted Feb 24, 2012 21:45 UTC (Fri) by southey (subscriber, #9466) [Link] From Wikipedia: Stigler's lawList of examples
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 29, 2012 8:23 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]
> "A theory is named after the last person who failed to cite their predecessors."
I've noticed that the predecessors seem to often be from a different culture/language. I guess that makes the "failure" much easier to achieve.
Vaguely related: it looks like the legal power of US megacorps with their legions of lawyers and the USPTO their pet tends to stop at the Chinese border. Funny that.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 6:19 UTC (Fri) by jirka (guest, #83100) [Link]
You're trying to kidnap what I've rightfully stolen
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 12:31 UTC (Fri) by viiru (subscriber, #53129) [Link]
This is historically funny though, considering the GUI look and feel lawsuit Apple started with Microsoft even though their GUI was a clone of the Xerox one.
Running into the same wall repeatedly has usually not been considered a sign of excellent business practices..
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 22:32 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953) [Link]
Not just that but to me forcing Microsoft to label the trash bin a recycle bin to avoid Apples lawyers speaks volumes.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 24, 2012 22:55 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]
Don't forget the "drag the disk to the trash to eject it" lunacy! That's "innovation" that nobody else was crazy enough to imitate, thankfully.
If Android is a "stolen product," then so was the iPhone (ars technica) Posted Feb 25, 2012 17:06 UTC (Sat) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] Oddly, the recycling bin is a rare case of Microsoft improving on Apple's metaphor. The space used by a deleted file really is recycled into available space for new files, not just thrown away.
obligatory groaning about patents (in the USA) Posted Feb 24, 2012 14:38 UTC (Fri) by tstover (subscriber, #56283) [Link]
I like the romantic idea that patents help to incentivize "the little guy" for bringing innovations to fruition, but as at least in today's world the system is overwhelmingly a boot on the neck for anyone not connected enough.
Clearly the real purpose it serves is to generate work for a society with a surplus of lawyers, and a short fall of engineers.
oh and of course to sabotage America. hey maybe when our great grandkids are ankle deep in a rice field under the gun, they'll have a more favorable view of what our parasite youth hate so much today.
Besides hand gestures on a touch screen? Good grief! The hardware to make a touch screen work perhapses...
Stolen products Posted Feb 24, 2012 23:13 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] It never ceases to amaze me how laws continue to be made with complete disregard to the real facts: patents do not protect innovation and they probably never have. Strongest protections are just a dampening of innovation. Someone should tell legislators all around the world.
Stolen products Posted Feb 25, 2012 11:10 UTC (Sat) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]
I might get shot for this comment, but ... :-)
*DESIGN* patents aren't bad, when not abused ... (but isn't that true of most?). And I think Apple is mostly suing Samsung over design patents.
But when used properly, design patents are like trademarks, saying "don't copy my *artistic* work". Though how Apple can argue that an iPhone/Pad/Whatever looks like a Samsung Galaxy I don't know.
I have no argument whatsoever with design patents being used to crush copy-cats. But if the two products are clearly different, then any patent in-suit should be *CANCELLED*. Hey - that might be a good thing - if a plaintiff loses a lawsuit then the defendant can asked for the patent to be cancelled as a part-remedy! :-)
Cheers,
Stolen products Posted Feb 25, 2012 12:34 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] *DESIGN* patents aren't bad, when not abused ... Interesting. How can they promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts? Traditionally patents are justified as "disclosure in exchange to limited monopoly" - but with design patents there are no disclosure thus we are left with pure, distilled, unadulterated, evil side - with no upsides at all. But when used properly, design patents are like trademarks, saying "don't copy my *artistic* work". If the work is artistic enough the you should use trademarks to protect it. Patents are not needed. If it's functional, then it should not be protected at all. Imagine a world where each car has it's own "artistic" controls.
Stolen products Posted Feb 25, 2012 14:24 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Patents do not in principle cover designs; they are meant to protect processes. That is: the invention and not the end result. According to the European Patent Convention:The following in particular shall not be regarded as inventions within the meaning of paragraph 1:For artistic designs you have copyright: the right for others to copy your original design. But there is a deeper question: what particular benefit to society do you have in mind? In my mind, the ability for others to copy an original design (without paying royalties, of course) are an incentive for the innovator. Why would I bother to innovate if no one else can copy my design? In contrast, if others are chasing my design, then I will try to improve it further and further so that they cannot get to me. Patents are a line in the sand: do not cross this line or I will sue you. Even if in the end there is no value in the patent, it is enough to distract competitors for a while. Is that what we want? Not to cite Jobs talking about "going thermonuclear": "I will spend my last dying breath if I need to, and I will spend every penny of Apple's $40 billion in the bank, to right this wrong," Jobs said. "I'm going to destroy Android, because it's a stolen product. I'm willing to go thermonuclear war on this."Rackets are bad enough, but shutting down competitors is the last thing that the public might want, ever.
Stolen products Posted Feb 25, 2012 20:29 UTC (Sat) by andrel (subscriber, #5166) [Link] Under US law designs are patentable.
Stolen products Posted Feb 27, 2012 11:12 UTC (Mon) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715) [Link]
US (patent) law is completely broken.
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