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Software is The Glass Bead Game

Software is The Glass Bead Game

Posted Feb 1, 2012 12:51 UTC (Wed) by java_developer (guest, #82469)
In reply to: Software is The Glass Bead Game by giraffedata
Parent article: LCA: Addressing the failure of open source

Sorry to have neglected this thread.

GiraffeData said:

However, I don't think that's what is controversial, because I don't think patents get issued for some software.

A "patent on software CODE" which is the idea you're trying to express in the above is called "copyright". Copyright is indeed issued on all code the second it's been written with no special trip to the USPTO or like needed on the part of the developer.

Most by far, although not all, software developers think copyright is OK.

GiraffeData said:

the claims of click-to-unlock (which I assume people include in the "software patent" category) talk about features of an iPhone (a piece of hardware) more than about computation steps.

Wrong. They talk about the user doing this to the interface and then that occurring as a result. They talk about the steps of the interaction and the result of the interaction and "one realization" of the patent which is what the thing actually looks like and does but is just ONE realization while the patent covers an infinitude of realizations, so it's not pinned down to any particular "realization" .

GiraffeData said:

I doubt a code rewrite would avoid infringing it.

Oh, and how right you would be. It's a patent on an abstract set of "aspects of a thing" (but one realization is provided so the examiner "knows what they mean" ) interacting on an abstract "device" in certain ways.

GiraffeData said:

I believe the definition people usually use for "software patent" is something more like "a patent on an invention that is typically implemented with software." But much less vague, since there are so many kinds of software and so many ways to implement something using it.

This is correct.


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Software is The Glass Bead Game

Posted Feb 1, 2012 18:14 UTC (Wed) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link]

the claims of [slide-to-unlock] (which I assume people include in the "software patent" category) talk about features of an iPhone (a piece of hardware) more than about computation steps.
Wrong. They talk about the user doing this to the interface ...
The interface to an iPhone (or anything like one), as opposed to some software.

Ask any user what the touch screen is for communicating with, and he'll say the iPhone. Not iOS. He'll say "I'm going to drive into town to pick up an iPhone today because it has a slide-to-unlock feature." An Apple attorney pulls an Acme Smartphone out of his briefcase and sets it on the bar and says, "this thing practices our slide-to-unlock patent."

That's how one can see the patent claims as related to hardware at least as much as to software.

There is some level in every implementation of anything where you have to say, "variations at this level aren't part of the invention." I'm just saying there is no bright line telling you how high that line can be before the invention is not patent-worthy, so maybe whether or not the thing is implemented with software is below it.

I'm also saying it's a waste of time to try to identify kinds of inventions that are above or below the line when you can just go case-by-case by first principles (e.g. is the invention is obvious?).

Software is The Glass Bead Game

Posted Feb 1, 2012 20:05 UTC (Wed) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> There is some level in every implementation of anything where you have to say, "variations at this level aren't part of the invention." I'm just saying there is no bright line telling you how high that line can be before the invention is not patent-worthy, so maybe whether or not the thing is implemented with software is below it.

Whether or not the thing is implemented with software is irrelevant. The problem with software patents and the like is the nature of the thing itself: an algorithm or user-interface element, as opposed to a device or manufacturing process.

To put it simply, the proper domain of patents is *technology*: how one can take advantage of the laws of physics in a novel and non-obvious way to accomplish some useful end. They shouldn't cover something you could, in principle, do in your head (e.g. algorithms), even if in practice you make use of existing technology to speed up the process or supplement your memory. A patent on the look of a device or an abstract interaction concept is even further afield.

Software is The Glass Bead Game

Posted Feb 2, 2012 3:19 UTC (Thu) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link]

It sounds like we agree on much, but
They shouldn't cover something you could, in principle, do in your head (e.g. algorithms)

Why is that? If it requires a significant investment to arrive at an algorithm you can do in your head, one which would others would want to use, isn't it in our best interest to offer a monopoly on use of the algorithm to the inventor? That would give him a way to recover that investment from the people who benefit from the algorithm, and thus an incentive to make the investment.

Software is The Glass Bead Game

Posted Feb 2, 2012 3:21 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

Because asking to regulate other peoples thoughts is unenforceable and insane?

Software is The Glass Bead Game

Posted Feb 2, 2012 11:53 UTC (Thu) by java_developer (guest, #82469) [Link]

GiraffData said:
Why is that? If it requires a significant investment to arrive at an algorithm you can do in your head, one which would others would want to use, isn't it in our best interest to offer a monopoly on use of the algorithm to the inventor? That would give him a way to recover that investment from the people who benefit from the algorithm, and thus an incentive to make the investment.

See here's the thing with the IP Maximalist arguments of which this is a classic, absolutely sterling example (and BTW I am terribly glad you made it here because if I had presented what you said and merely claimed it was what was motivating you underneath it all, no one would have believed me..) OK here's the thing-

They represent a complete reworking of the way civilization and its members would conduct themselves down to the smallest, most invasive detail.

And they want to impose this without feeling the even the smallest duty to conduct a shred of what civilization calls "scientific inquiry" into the possible effects the imposition of their proposed program would have.

And why is this? Because they know... ladies and gentlemen they KNOWWWW... what's good for everyone else, and through the courts and legislators they've found the leverage they need to impose their vision on society.

What's the problem with arguing with a fanatic? Only this- their ideas are so fucking crazy that no one is actually prepared to address their specific claims.

Usually society is inoculated from this shit just because, without anyone having to go to the bother of working out exactly why, their ideas just get rejected by most other people.

Without the assistance of other members of society, they're going nowhere.

Maybe they become a writer with a cult following or maybe they start their own religion but they aren't getting at the levers of power in society.

Enter the IP Maximalists. If a little IP is good, then more MUST be better. This is the sum total of the proof they offer for the radical reworking of society they seek.

The gulf that exists between what they're thinking - when they reveal it- and what the average person thinks is worth remarking on.

At least they're confused about the basic nature of society. People are revolted at the idea of patenting a thought process but the IP Maximalist cheerily offers it up as a smacking good idea.

What does this say? That the IP Maximalist has no intuitive understanding about the basic nature of social interactions and what purpose those interactions serve in society.

Let's just hang a cash register and some barbed wire around everything. Nothing inherently repulsive in that! We'll hash out the *right* level of abstraction in the courts.... and that itself a fine use of societal attention, money and intelligence.

It says that IP Maximalists have a strong and narrow scope of comprehension and are good at focusing in on one aspect of reality, the value of IP, but utterly blind to the larger picture of society their ideas have to exist in.

The fact that people are offended by their ideas baffles them; the IP Maximalist looks around uncomprehending at their distress. What's wrong? What did I say? I didn't intend to offend anyone ...


OK Giraffdata, suppose we permit the patenting of algorithms that you can do in your head. What sort of regime would have to be imposed between people in order to facilitate the prosecution of violations, never mind find them?

OK GiraffeData, what effect over time would the existence of such a regime have on human intercourse and our perception of each other and attitudes towards each other?

I just got done reading a review of a study by a psychologist, you know a scientist, someone who lives under the constraint of having to PROVE her ideas are true. Of course compared to your program, each of their ideas is VASTLY more modest in scope and effect than what you're proposing for society, so perhaps this won't interest you, but nevertheless maybe other readers will see my point.

In this study she was able to show that the mere MENTION of money casually, in passing, had the effect of making the study's volunteers LESS altruistic towards strangers.

Now I can imagine all kinds of arguments being made that the idea of money makes people more altruistic because they have to cooperate to get it so the more we inject the concept of money into everything, the more altruistic people will become!

The difference is, one is just an idea, a philosophy, a hypothesis about how people will behave in hypothetical circumstances and the other is what a scientific study shows to be true about humans.

This is one study. It doesn't prove anything definitively and forever, even about people's behaviour in the rarefied and contrived circumstances which were realized in the study .

How many studies have the IP Maximalists done? Zero. Their ideas are purely exercises in inductive and, god help us, deductive reasoning using at best tangentially related statistical studies produced by academic economic departments and ideologically motivated "think tanks".

People are revulsed by the IP Maximalist program for reasons that have nothing to do with the internal logical cohesion of the myopic set of ideas they propose. They're revulsed because a few million years of evolution have left them with brains which naturally reject this kind of thing as BAD for society, even before any psychologist performs any experiment. This intuitive sense goes by different names. History or tradition or common sense or culture.

If a few million years of evolution left you with another kind of brain, then at least know that just as everyone else can understand the difference between a software patent and a hardware patent, so also everyone else finds the idea of patenting thought algorithms, play plot devices, business methods, incentive schemes, arrangements of data, arrangements of ideas, arrangements of human activity, the mere presentation or interaction order of just anything- useful and novel or otherwise, and finally, yes software, as inherently revolting and highly destructive to the fabric of society.

Software is The Glass Bead Game

Posted Feb 2, 2012 17:01 UTC (Thu) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> If it requires a significant investment to arrive at an algorithm you can do in your head, one which would others would want to use, isn't it in our best interest to offer a monopoly on use of the algorithm to the inventor?

As various studies have shown, it's not in our best interest to offer monopolies at all, even for things which *are* within the domain of patents.

However, to consider granting monopolies over certain patterns of thought... I'm having a hard time believing that you're serious. Among other things, it would be a very literal form of thoughtcrime, which implies not only an incredible infringement of the rights of the individual, but also that it would be impossible to enforce fairly.

Moreover, historically, algorithms have been researched because they were needed for a specific task, not because of the promise of a patent, and once used they are basically impossible to maintain as a trade secret. Consequently, no further incentives are required to encourage either the discovery of algorithms or their public disclosure. A monopoly in this case does not merely cost the public more than it benefits them, as with normal patents; it is a pure public cost which brings *no* public benefit.

Software is The Glass Bead Game

Posted Feb 2, 2012 18:04 UTC (Thu) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link]

However, to consider granting monopolies over certain patterns of thought

Right, I was not contemplating granting a monopoly over the thinking, but rather other applications of the invention such as selling of a machine that uses the algorithm. The criterion you gave for something not worthy of a patent was that it be theoretically possible to do it in your head, not that that was the only way to profit from it. I framed the question from that definition.

If you're right that monopolies are always bad, then it follows that the algorithm invention shouldn't be patentable, but it doesn't explain why there should be a patentability distinction between algorithm and not algorithm, which I think you said there should be.

But if you're right that historically inventors of algorithms have got enough value out of the first application of the invention to repay the investment and the algorithm could not be kept secret, and your implication that that is not true of other kinds of inventions, then that's a good reason for the distinction.

I'm not sure it would be easier for a judge to determine whether an invention is an algorithm or not than it would be to simply determine whether the invention meets those two underlying criteria. I thought you were alluding to some more fundamental property of algorithms. It reminds me of an argument that preference for scholarships should be given to black students because statistics show black families have less money, and the counterargument that you could do even better by just giving preference to students whose families have less money.

Software is The Glass Bead Game

Posted Feb 3, 2012 1:39 UTC (Fri) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> Right, I was not contemplating granting a monopoly over the thinking, but rather other applications of the invention such as selling of a machine that uses the algorithm.

First, though I realize this is generally overlooked, software is merely a passive description of an algorithm, qualitatively no different from the description in the patent application. A machine storing such software is qualitatively no different than the paper the patent application was written on--a medium containing a stored description of the algorithm. It is only when the machine is actually used that you could say that the algorithm is being used--by the owner or operator of the machine, not whoever manufactured or sold it.

However, we then run into the second issue: in attempting to avoid monopolizing people's thoughts, we've codified an excessively limited interpretation of the term "thinking". Increasingly, people are integrating computers into their day-to-day lives and routinely using them to aid their own thought processes. I would hate to formalize a legal distinction at this point between "thinking" which goes on entirely in one's brain and "thinking" which incorporates technology to a greater or lesser degree.

Without that distinction, however, any time a person evaluates an algorithm on a general-purpose computer they are "thinking". Ergo, if you exclude "thinking" from actions which can infringe on the patent, you are left with very little in the way of actual monopolies.

Finally, to approach the issue from a different direction, all the novelty is in the algorithm, not the machine, which is merely a general-purpose computer. In my opinion, at least, if you're not patenting the algorithm in its own right, any novelty in the algorithm shouldn't count toward fulfilling the overall requirements. That would be rather like inventing a novel kind of transistor, using it in a textbook-standard amplifier circuit, and then being granted a patent on that standard amplifier design incorporating the new transistors. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I certainly *hope* you couldn't a patent like that...)

> ... it doesn't explain why there should be a patentability distinction between algorithm and not algorithm ...

The novelty criteria isn't limited to software patents, of course, but software patents suffer from the systemic issue that only the unpatentable abstract algorithm is actually novel--given the algorithm, a device which implements it via a general-purpose computer is nothing new or surprising. All software patents have this problem, which is why they're singled out.

> I'm not sure it would be easier for a judge to determine whether an invention is an algorithm or not than it would be to simply determine whether the invention meets those two underlying criteria.

I think you're making it sound harder to classify something as a software patent than it really is. One simple question would do: is the invention present before you load the software? If no, it's a software patent. Still, you might be right about the cost/benefit analysis being easier in some cases. Now if only patent examiners were permitted to reject applications simply because they feel the patent fails to provide sufficient public benefit... sweet, sweet chaos. I can't imagine the examiners or the applicants tolerating that degree of subjectivity. This, of course, is part of the reason inventions are classified into patentable and unpatentable subject matter.

Algorithms, as such, are already an unpatentable subject matter (math). The real question in this debate is how to interpret "novelty" and "obviousness" when patentable and unpatentable subjects are mixed together, particularly when it's just the non-patentable part which is novel or non-obvious.

Software is The Glass Bead Game

Posted Feb 1, 2012 23:25 UTC (Wed) by java_developer (guest, #82469) [Link]

What nybble41 said and also-- there is a very clear line to be drawn, it's just that you think we should not draw it. Let's just agree on that. I respect you think that the transformations provided by software should not be prevented from patentability. But let's nto say , "gooly there exists no line between software and hardware" because the EU fond it quite readily and canonized it into a set of laws that everyone understands. .

What's the POINT of patents again? Oh yeah, to serve a societal good. How does locking up things as this high a level of abstraction serve a societal good? The EU thinks UI and computer ONLY "inventions" are bad for progress. Maybe that's because those things were being invented a mile a minute- and by for profit companies too- before software patents were invented.

You know there are hypotheticals and there are things which can be proven. Of the types of proofs in the world, the strongest type is "the existence proof", which is, the thing stands before you, therefore, this proves it exists.

Progress in software and the associated user interfaces and purposes to which software is put went through a period of time when it was not patented. That would be when almost everything of interest was created including WIMP word processors spread sheets drawing programs etc etc etc.

This should be enough to PROVE that software innovation doesn't need patenting.

If you need still more proof, then the plethora of studies I've cited in this thread should be enough to prove that patenting software has deleterious effect on innovation and economic participation.

The thing stands before you, so let's not hear any arguments about "if we took patents away, no one would innovate anything!"

As far as the "proper" level of abstraction argument goes, if we're going patent slide to unlock then let's all go for it and start patenting every arrangement of all things universally. This is what IP maximalist actually want. We can patent everything to do with writing.. I know for a fact that directors have a set of tricks they use to make certain impressions on audiences.. they deliberately and specifically set about to build sympathy
for a leading characters using a certain set of techniques which can be quantified within a time-duration range and specified as clearly as any software patent.

There's a way to type at your keyboard, a way to organize people to get them to behave in certain ways, the universities are perpetually inventing new ways in which people things and animals can be arranged, coaxed, altered, influenced, and otherwise directed to some good end each of which is novel useful and advances the state of some art.

The reason we don't permit this is because if it's driven to its logical conclusion, everyone would see how ridiculous it all is. There is zero difference between a slide to unlock patent and an employee incentive scheme, a strategy to attack your competitors product line , a technique in the courtroom, a way of coordinating employee's activities.. why are we making software and computers the sole target of this "what level of abstraction" type arguments when there's an entire world of thing and activities that had formerly been free of IP constraints which are just waiting to be constrained?

You accuse us of arbitrarily setting the level of abstraction in some arbitrary place. With all due respect sir, look who's talking.

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