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Channels for community communications

By Jonathan Corbet
December 7, 2011
In the dim and distant past, even before the 0.01 Linux kernel was posted, developers communicated with each other via email, often sent over the UUCP-based USENET network. It had its challenges; life was better for those who could arrange a link to a machine owned by a company that paid little attention to its phone bills, and the need for senders to manually determine the routing of their message made communications uncertain at times. Your editor received a full netnews feed over a 2400-baud modem, and everybody complained that there was far too much traffic to keep up with. But a lot of collaboration was done over this medium, and a lot of early free software was developed and distributed that way.

Happily, the days of broadcasting software releases over modem-based connections are long behind us. But the free software community still relies on electronic mail for the bulk of its communications, despite the fact that a great many alternatives have become available. Email has a lot of advantages: we have developed a lot of tools for working with it (complaints about the quality of free email clients notwithstanding), it works well for multi-sided communications, it is distributed and can be dealt with offline, it is easily searched, and it is readily managed and archived on non-proprietary sites. It is not surprising that email has been the tool of choice for so long, especially when one looks at some of the alternatives.

Recently, your editor received a grumpy communication (via email, naturally) from a prominent community member who was unhappy about a recent quotes of the week article that included a quote posted on the Google+ site. Posting to links on Google+ legitimizes it as a valid place for community discussions, your editor was told; it makes it more likely that more conversations - perhaps more useful ones than the one chosen by LWN - will move to that site. And this was seen as a bad thing.

There are certainly reasons to be concerned about engaging in community discussions on a site like Google+. The site is corporate-owned, making it subject to all of the usual types of pathological corporate behavior, in the present or in the future. Its owner will make use of the content of messages and the whole "circles" structure for targeted advertising and any number of other purposes. Governments seem to feel free to help themselves to the information held by these sites at will. There are no tools to help readers deal with messages on the site, no RSS feeds, and no ability to read messages offline.

But the biggest complaint of all seemed to be that when sites like Google+ (or even LWN) host conversations of interest, they spread those conversations out and make it harder to keep up with what is being said. The result is a more fragmented community with groups that no longer communicate with each other and with people who are left in the dark about important discussions and decisions. It would be better, this correspondent said, to improve the mailing list experience if need be and keep the useful discussions there.

Your editor understands these concerns and is all for improving the email experience whenever possible. But he is less clear on whether it has ever been possible to concentrate community communications into a single channel, or whether it is a desirable goal.

Consider, for example, the venerable IRC channel. IRC is clearly an important part of how members of our community work together. But IRC, too, works poorly offline; it also often - and often by design - lacks a permanent record. Extracting information from IRC logs when they are available is a tedious exercise at best. IRC involvement can also be incompatible with actually getting work done, so some people find that they need to avoid it. IRC, in other words, is a channel that is available to parts of the community part of the time, but it has its value anyway.

An even more exclusive resource is the famed conference hallway track, where a lot of real work gets done. Your editor's job would be much facilitated by readily-accessible logs of conference hallway (and pub) conversations; the "quotes of the week" section, in particular, would benefit mightily. But no such logs exist, and that is certainly for the best. There is also a lot of valuable conversation to be found in vast numbers of bug trackers, patch trackers, weblogs, retail site comment areas, and, sadly, forum sites.

In other words, community discussions are already widely fragmented. The key is communicating important decisions back to the wider group and making people aware of useful discussions. Often that can be achieved with an email to a prominent development list; one might also hope that sites like LWN can help in this regard. Indeed, one might argue that pointing to something interesting on Google+, rather than encouraging fragmentation of our community, actually serves to help pull it back together.

That said, the other concerns about a platform like Google+ remain. If anything important was ever posted on Google's "Wave" or "Knol" platforms, it will disappear early next year. The same fate could certainly befall discussions on Google+. That platform also excludes anybody who is unwilling to provide yet more information to Google about his or her activities and connections on the net. Google+ might serve as a sort of stand-in for a conference hotel bar, but it is not suitable as a piece of significant community infrastructure. One could name any of a number of other proprietary platforms that are equally unsuited, if not more so.

It seems that there is a place in our lives for a service with which we can post updates on our development projects, air travel horror stories, silly cat pictures, desktop environment flames, lazyweb requests, cooking experiments, new techno-toys, and musings on how Cher songs relate to the harsh life of NMI watchdog handlers. What we seem to be missing is the ability to create such a platform for ourselves and, crucially, to get a critical mass of people to give it a try. Even back in the USENET days, we demonstrated that we can create distributed communications services when we set our minds to it. Someday we'll solve that problem again for the contemporary net; until then, we're limited to the channels that exist, some of which are not all we would like them to be.


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Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 3:24 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

One of the most horrible things about Google+ is that it seems to deliver content entirely using JavaScript instead of HTML plus minimal JavaScript for progressive enhancement, preventing folks who prefer to turn that off from even viewing public postings.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 5:58 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

Yeah. Modern web apps have more in common with Java Webstart than with the static documents of lore, they are full client applications implemented in JS with HTML as a UI toolkit that talk RPC to a backend service. A lot of mobile "apps" are the same, with a UI in either HTML or a native toolkit that just talk to the same API as the web app client.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 7:16 UTC (Thu) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link]

Yeah, and damn those kids and their rock'n'roll and their boom boxes and their MTV. Get off my lawn!

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 15, 2011 13:00 UTC (Thu) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]

>Yeah, and damn those kids and their rock'n'roll and their boom boxes and their MTV. Get off my lawn!

Well, there are good reasons to send some of the actual page content synchronously, rather than a piece of JS that bootstraps the entire page using AJAX. Performance and reliability spring to mind.

More importantly though, I think there's a legitimate worry that some important information will at some point become accessible only with JS. I find myself forced more often that I'd care to recall into using Lynx to find some critical instructions for 'how to get this damn machine working properly'.

That said, G+ does appear to load in Lynx, so perhaps in this particular example the content could be obtained in a desktop browser with JS disabled, using some form of user agent spoofing?

Although I have to say that the idea of turning off JS in a desktop browser seems as silly to me as the idea of turning off HTML rendering.

Channels for community communications

Posted Jan 3, 2012 23:27 UTC (Tue) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

Most of the reason I turn off JavaScript is to reduce the browser attack surface. I also prefer not to run non-free software that is often minified and sourceless. I'm working on moving all my use of JavaScript to client-side software, using web APIs or scrapers.

If you want to cripple your browser then it's your resposibility to make it usable

Posted Jan 3, 2012 23:55 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Well, Google+ actually delivers all the data using "HTML plus minimal JavaScript for progressive enhancement".

JavaScript is there for one reason only: to deal with differences in CSS implementations. The text actually is delivered using plain old HTML and works with any sane browser. And, sorry to say that, but browser with CSS but without JavaScript is not sane: it's strange Frankenstein which can only be created artificially so I can understand why Google+ developers don't bother to support it - Netscape2-3 had JavaScript already and Netscape4 actually used JavaScript to implement CSS and all later browser with CSS supported JavaScript as well thus IMNSHO it's perfectly natural to assume that browser with CSS support supports JavaScript as well. You can either disable JavaScript and CSS and see it that way (this is essentially what Lynx is doing: Google+ does not use UA-sniffing AFAICS), or you can enable JavaScript.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 4:10 UTC (Thu) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]

Concrete-reinforced asbestos suit on ... [ mainly because I'm not sure that my thoughts are clear in my own head, so I actually have more open-ended thoughts than opinions ... ]

While it used to be that new communication mediums created by and for geeks (me included) could succeed in the mainstream, I doubt that that is possible at this stage. Twitter, Facebook, Foursquare, etc. (no matter what your opinion may be of them) were created from the get-go with general appeal in mind. i.e. the design criteria back then (UUCP, IRC, FTP, email, etc.) were far different from now. And so, I think, likely are the requisite skills for their design and dissemination. Also success of the new mediums has almost nothing to do with willingness of geeks/IT to first adopt them and more to do with your mom, dad, sister, cat, dog, ... being able to use them.

P.S.: Please don't flame me. Just prove me wrong ;)

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 8:47 UTC (Thu) by kragilkragil2 (guest, #76172) [Link]

I don't really agree. If Linus and some other prominent FOSS people would stop blogging and only post their zombie tux pictures etc on Diaspora it would gain traction a lot faster than it does right now.
The kids that did Diaspora have done a marvellous job (sadly one of them died recently) it had circles before G+ and can replace Twitter and G+ fairly easy. Maybe not Facebook yet, because that is the place where nearly everybody is, but it has the potential. They try to use standard, FOSS and privacy. I wish them all the best. I hoped that Google would make G+ compatible to standards, but I fear that they gained too much users already and so they don't really see the need to give up control to compete with Facebook. So maybe I should hope for a even stronger FB, I don't know.

Anyways, I have invites ...

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 9:14 UTC (Thu) by __alex (subscriber, #38036) [Link]

Why do you need invites to participate on a federated social network exactly?

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 10:09 UTC (Thu) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Because not everyone who wants to participate necessarily wants to run their own pod.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 12:23 UTC (Thu) by ejr (subscriber, #51652) [Link]

You don't need an invitation to join http://identi.ca.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 7:17 UTC (Thu) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

I don't feel that LWN linking to Google Plus legitimizes Google Plus. Prominent Linux developers using Google Plus legitimizes Google Plus; LWN just reports on relevant discussion wherever it occurs. If LWN refused to report on discussions due to their medium, they would do us a disservice. Personally, I find that LWN's links to highlights on Google Plus make it unnecessary for me to join Google Plus and follow kernel developers, just as LWN's links to LKML make it unnecessary for me to subscribe to the LKML firehose directly; it suffices to read the LKML threads people CC me on, the ones I send, and the ones LWN and others link to. So, thank you to LWN for continuing to report on Linux development even from the Google Plus trenches.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 18:03 UTC (Thu) by arget (guest, #5929) [Link]

Along these lines... Now that I know Jonathan is on G+, I have started following him there. :)

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 18:19 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

That should make for some good bedtime reading :)

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 7:27 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

We need Gmane+.

Seriously, I track all my OpenSource projects through Gmane. The only thing I miss is ability to easily _reply_ using Gmane (there is a rudimentary 'reply' feature in Gmane but it barely works half of times).

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 8:34 UTC (Thu) by peter-b (subscriber, #66996) [Link]

If you read Gmane via a newsreader, you can also use it to easily reply to posts.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 9:03 UTC (Thu) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link]

The same problem that afflicts replying via the web interface still applies, though. With some mailing lists Gmane does the right thing (confirming the email address if it's the first post, and then forwarding the post) but with some it just does not work.

I've resorted to using Thunderbird as my NNTP reader but also subscribing to the mailing lists I regularly post to, but with delivery disabled, and when replying, switching back to email. The neat thing about Gmane NNTP is that the proper message ID is still there in the header, so replying by email does not break threading.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 9:42 UTC (Thu) by mtaht (✭ supporter ✭, #11087) [Link]

I really, really, really, really miss usenet. I wish we'd fixed it as the core backbone for topic oriented communication (and it's mostly fixed now) rather than developing all these other means of fragmenting the conversation.

Quick and dirty distributed forum with existing tools?

Posted Dec 8, 2011 22:29 UTC (Thu) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

This is obvious...

(1) set up a local news spool and newsreader in a git repository. Do a "commit -a" every time you post something.

(2) push it to a git repo on your web server, or a public git site such as GitHub.

(3) to add someone to the conversation, pull from their git repo to bring in that person's articles and favorite groups. If you get too much spam that way, stop pulling.

...so what are the reasons it won't work?

Quick and dirty distributed forum with existing tools?

Posted Dec 8, 2011 22:54 UTC (Thu) by diederich (subscriber, #26007) [Link]

While not obvious to my remaining three brain cells, I do find your idea very interesting. I'll be experimenting a bit.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 10:59 UTC (Thu) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

one very frustrating thing is that if you want to have a web forum that integrates into a mailing list (and/or nntp feed), there are amazingly few choices out there.

As far as I know (having done a fair amount of research earlier this year), there are three options

Gmane

"here's the code that works for us, it may or may not work for anyone else, good luck" and a look-and-feel that is not up to date with the current Internet style (and no way to change this)

Nabble

"we're offering this hosted service for free (or trivial support contract), we don't have any business plan, but we expect that if we get enough users we will find a way to make money at it". We investigated paying them to host a private instance, and the response was that if we paid the full salary for a person, plus hosting fees, they would run a separate instance for us, but they would not have that person dedicated to us, or even give us first dibs on that person's time.

FuseTalk

This is a commercial, hosted forum package that claims to support all of this, but in the real world they cannot make e-mail reliable, cannot use nntp without generating loops that fill forums with bogus messages, cannot do authentication of any kind on their nntp server, and don't even run at sane speeds for a fairly modest size site.

FUDForum

this one seems to work (and is the one that was selected in the case I was doing research for) Unfortunantly it supports EITHER e-mail or nntp, so we ended up using mailman to provide a gateway between the two.

But why is there only one forum package out there that can handle integration with a mailing list of news server? It would seem that this sort of thing would be very useful for many people, but while many forum packages allow e-mail notification of the first new message on a topic via e-mail, and a few support notification of all new messages on a topic via e-mail, none (other than the ones listed above) allow you to post to the forum via e-mail. This isn't even just a lack in the free forum packages, pay packages have the same lack.

It would seem to be that a web interface to a nntp server or mailing list archive would be a fairly trivial thing that I expected to have an embarrasement of riches and have my biggest problem being to eliminate al the "my first webapp" versions. Instead there seems to be nothing out there.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 14:28 UTC (Thu) by ScottMinster (subscriber, #67541) [Link]

Mailman itself supports webpage generation for archives of the mailing list activity. Maybe that support could be augmented to allow for posting to the list?

The trouble is, everybody's idea of what a forum looks like is probably different. I personally dislike the non threaded nature of many forums, but enough other people must like it since its so prevalent. There's also the problem that many forums allow users to edit their posts, but there's no editing an email once it's been sent. I see this as a good thing, but I bet others would not. So, any forum-mailing list integration is likely going to be different from what many users expect.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 19:36 UTC (Thu) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

there are a number of issues that you have to look at when looking at a web front-end to a mailing list

some people want a threaded view, some people don't. Just like when reading messages in e-mail. the forum software should support both.

edits to messages never have prevented people from seeing and replying to the pre-edit message, and when the message is sent off the system, this is even more the case. you can set the system up so that when you edit a message, you send out an update, but overall I really think that just turning edits off is the right thing to do, even in a web based system.

for what it's worth, what the Baen Bar community came up with for the requirements for a system are viewable at https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1AntCzOxRfNa_qx5w...

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 15:11 UTC (Thu) by djerius (subscriber, #4489) [Link]

GroupServer looks like it might do the trick. It claims to blend email and web forums.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 19:37 UTC (Thu) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

unfortunately, it doesn't appear to support any sort of threading within a topic. That is a dealbreaker as far as I am concerned.

but thanks for the link, I'll keep an eye on it.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 22:43 UTC (Thu) by djerius (subscriber, #4489) [Link]

Here's another package that appears to support threading: Listen. Looks a bit dormant, though.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 8, 2011 19:05 UTC (Thu) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

I have been reading various old computer texts (The Psychology of Computer Programmers by Gerald Weinberg is my current one), and it is funny how many problems about social communication keep cropping up. At the time of writing in 1971.. it seemed that conversations were getting more fragmented because people weren't meeting at the mainframe readouts anymore to discuss programs. Instead people were spending more time on their own terminals and using email which seemed to private for group knowledge. I remember various conversations about people using Lotus systems versus email in the early 1990's.

In the end, people have conflicting urges. We want to group up into communities for better survival, but we also have urges to split our communities for better survival (if everyone stays at Babel, then a single disease wipes everyone out before possible immune responses can occur.) Wondering why we can't all get along without understanding those urges just makes people more anxious to do one (bond) or the other (flee).

I would say that for as much community members are going to have conversations in new places is for the same reason people would find another water cooler to talk around. Seeing the same people, hearing the same arguments, going over the same differences that will never be bridged gets tiring. Going to find a new place for some peace and quiet so you can get some work done becomes a primal drive. Trying to get the people to come back without understanding that is a fools errand at best.

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 9, 2011 22:53 UTC (Fri) by clump (subscriber, #27801) [Link]

Outstanding comment, thanks.

USENET and UUCP

Posted Dec 11, 2011 22:12 UTC (Sun) by skissane (subscriber, #38675) [Link]

When you say, "via email, often sent over the UUCP-based USENET network", that doesn't quite read right to me. USENET is newsgroups, not email; I don't think you can send *email* over USENET. You can certainly send email over UUCP, and USENET (at least back then) ran over a UUCP transport, at least in part, but the way this sentence is worded doesn't make much sense.

USENET and UUCP

Posted Dec 11, 2011 22:28 UTC (Sun) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

OK, yes, it was sloppy wording, but we tended to call the whole uucp-based network "USENET" in those days, at least in the circles where I hung out. The newsgroups were called "netnews."

Channels for community communications

Posted Dec 13, 2011 22:02 UTC (Tue) by duffy (guest, #31787) [Link]

Can we do something like this for mailman?

http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/03/16/a-rich-web-interfa...

If you'll write the code, I'll do the design work. Let me know, anybody who is interested.

LWN archives mirrors?

Posted Dec 18, 2011 11:57 UTC (Sun) by liw (subscriber, #6379) [Link]

Speaking of corporate-controlled communication fora and their sudden disappearances at the whim of media moguls...

@corbet: Is it possible, technically and legally, to mirror LWN archives, and make those mirrors publically available?

LWN archives mirrors?

Posted Dec 19, 2011 22:10 UTC (Mon) by jlokier (guest, #52227) [Link]

Good question. LWN's old articles are a wonderful resource, often with material that isn't found anywhere else, or not presented half as well. It would be a great shame if they went away for any reason.

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