Some computer usage patterns have changed over the last decade. I need constant and easy access to RandR settings, to attach bluetooth devices and to WLANs and WANs. This is an important part of what modern desktops offer. I am curious as to what software you use and recommend for these things when you run only a window manager today?
Posted Nov 10, 2011 10:22 UTC (Thu) by imitev (subscriber, #60045)
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On my fedora laptop: openbox, tint2 panel, gigolo applet (from XFCE - for mounting disks), nm-applet (GNOME - network manager), and system-config-printer-applet (DBUS notifications, for printing / detecting printers).
These are bits salvaged here and there, and in the end you could ask what's the benefit of running a lightweight wm if you add "heavy" gnome/kde/... applets, but this setup is lower on resources than standard XFCE and way lower than gnome/KDE. I guess that's what the OP had in mind...
(as for xrandr, I tried XFCE's GUI but it lacked some features I needed, so I find it easier to assign key shortcuts in openbox with xrandr command lines I often use).
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 10, 2011 16:15 UTC (Thu) by endecotp (guest, #36428)
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> Some computer usage patterns have changed over the last decade.
Mine haven't.
> I need constant and easy access to RandR settings, to attach
> bluetooth devices and to WLANs and WANs.
I don't.
> This is an important part of what modern desktops offer.
Not to me.
> I am curious as to what software you use and recommend for these
> things when you run only a window manager today?
Not applicable.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 10, 2011 17:40 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
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I need constant and easy access to RandR settings, to attach bluetooth devices and to WLANs and WANs. This is an important part of what modern desktops offer. I am curious as to what software you use and recommend for these things when you run only a window manager today?
I use a terminal and xrandr, iwconfig, iwlist and ifconfig. (I don't own any bluetooth devices, so can't speak to that part of your question.)
Works for me.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 10, 2011 19:09 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333)
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wow. You must enjoy suffering.
For years I managed my wireless on linux using command line tools and wpasupplicant... I am sure as hell happy I don't have to do that anymore!
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 10, 2011 21:15 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
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You must enjoy suffering.
No, if I enjoyed suffering, I'd use GNOME 3.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 11, 2011 0:10 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
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When I used wpa_supplicant[1], it had better behavior than NM. If I disconnected, the network didn't immediately disconnect and force me to do everything again. I could walk from my room, out to the staircase and to the room above or below me in the dorm on my wireless without reconnecting (manual or otherwise) to my router even though the stairwell was well out of range. NM drops at the hint of a disruption (e.g., power cycle the connected switch[2]) and NM would disconnect wired lines while manual ifup just waits and buffers traffic instead of confusing all NM-aware applications.
[1]Unfortunately the machines I have don't have wireless chips that are supported by upstream, so I'm without wireless most times.
[2]TWC cuts out and this is the quickest way to get the modem to allow traffic through again. It's not the switch since the same happens when the machines are connected directly to the modem in which case a modem power cycle is the only way and the local network is unaffected.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 11, 2011 14:35 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333)
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I do not think the behavior you describe can be attributed to solely Network-Manager. I suspect it's more of a function of the wireless drivers you are using and/or the hardware.
Unless you were talking about using a very old version of Network-Manager. If so you should probably re-evaluate as it's massively better then it was when it was new. Matured massively in capabilities and stability.
Why do I say this?
Because Network-Manager depends on wpa_supplicant.
Posted Nov 11, 2011 16:22 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
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Possibly, but I doubt it. That was back around NM 0.8. I moved my work laptop to NM in the past few months for 0.9, but the same "drop as soon as the cable is disconnected" behavior happens with wired which did not happen when I was using just wpa_supplicant.
I agree that it has gotten better, but this behavior is a showstopper for me. I brought it up on f-d-l and I did not get the impression that marking networks as "flaky" (so that NM would take N seconds before dropping DNS, IP, and related information on the interface instead of 0) was not an important feature.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 10, 2011 19:10 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198)
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That kind of work pattern would be frustrating for me, it's too much like yak shaving, doing a bunch of work in front of doing the actual work you are trying to do. Theres software that does all that, like NetworkManager, so I don't have to worry about those details anymore.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 10, 2011 21:17 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
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Theres software that does all that, like NetworkManager, so I don't have to worry about those details anymore.
I haven't used Network Manager in a long time. It was really buggy the last time I used it, but may be OK now.
I don't often change networks. When I do, it's to use free (or at least unencrypted) WiFi in hotel rooms, conferences, etc. For that, iwlist, iwconfig and dhclient are really quick. I can probably set up my network on the command line as fast as I'd be able to with a GUI.
If I had to manage many WAP keys, then yeah... I'd use something else.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 11, 2011 0:19 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
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> If I had to manage many WAP keys, then yeah... I'd use something else.
I used wpa_supplicant.conf to manage it for me. Worked flawlessly for WPA, 802.1x, and unauthenticated at the least.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 10, 2011 19:21 UTC (Thu) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106)
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I'll add wpa_cli (part of wpa_supplicant) to that. I have a small collection of scripts written on top of it that makes wireless trivial.
I'm sure there are probably tools for configuring wireless and screen resolution graphically, but it's easier if you know the command to just issue the command.
Also, e16 forever.
Well, it looks like start of Network Manager reimplementation...
Posted Nov 10, 2011 20:06 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252)
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I have a small collection of scripts written on top of it that makes wireless trivial.
Trivial as in "open the lid and you can start using the Internet" or "I can go to different building without closing the lid and it'll automatically connect to another AP with different SSID" ? This starts looking as script-language reimplementation of Network Manager. May be better to use the real thing? You can drive it from command line using cnetworkmanager...
Or perhaps (as drag suspects) you just enjoy suffering.
I'm sure there are probably tools for configuring wireless and screen resolution graphically, but it's easier if you know the command to just issue the command.
LCD made screen resolution adjustment kinda pointless (there are just one native resolution and X.org servers were able to find and use it for quite long time) and as for wireless... it's not the question of "how to configure it" (you don't configure it all that often), but how to use it.
I'm not sure I remember the time when I was last forced to think about the fact that I have different SSIDs at home and at work, etc. I know that I'm supposed to find and plug Ethernet cable when I need decent speed but I can just open the laptop lid and use it when I'm just web surfing - and that's it. Okay, I lie: when I obtain new laptop (or tablet, or anything else) I need to briefly recall that you need to actually enter the names of APs and accompanying passwords (the one at work which requires new certificate stored in TPM is especially painful to setup), but then I just forget all about configs - I just use the internat/Internet and that's it.
Well, it looks like start of Network Manager reimplementation...
Posted Nov 11, 2011 0:18 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
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> You can drive it from command line using cnetworkmanager...
You can't manage wireless connections through it (adding, removing, etc.). Only nm-applet supports it. You could hack the XML config files I suppose, but wpa_supplicant.conf is easier in that case (except the root requirement, but to avoid XML and a session dbus for just one app, I'll take it).
> I'm not sure I remember the time when I was last forced to think about the fact that I have different SSIDs at home and at work, etc.
wpa_supplicant.conf allows you to do the same. The priority= setting allows it to choose in the face of choice as well. I don't recall NM having that last I used it.
The only practical difference between NM and wpa_supplicant in my experience is that NM will connect and drop automatically where I need to do "ifup" manually. However, where NM will drop at a network disruption, ifup will stay up until I take it down. That, IMO, is well worth the slight inconvenience of an ifup at boot (which is in the history right alongside exec startx).
Well, it looks like start of Network Manager reimplementation...
Posted Nov 12, 2011 7:34 UTC (Sat) by tom.prince (subscriber, #70680)
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In fact, the network-manager configuration files are simple ini style config files.
Well, it looks like start of Network Manager reimplementation...
Posted Nov 13, 2011 14:18 UTC (Sun) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
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That's certainly an improvement.
Well, it looks like start of Network Manager reimplementation...
Posted Nov 17, 2011 12:51 UTC (Thu) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106)
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I find that with wpa_supplicant I can ifup wlan0 on boot and then walk between networks without manual ifdown or ifup and stay connected, so long as some kind of configuration for the network exists. Having a generic fallback for open networks is really all you need; I'm surprised that such a fallback isn't supplied by default by wpa_supplicant.
Well, it looks like start of Network Manager reimplementation...
Posted Nov 17, 2011 23:21 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
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True, but I don't add a catch-all open network section simply because I'd like some notification when that happens.
Now if wpa_supplicant could automatically do RADIUS web logins instead of forcing me to realize that things aren't going through and then opening uzbl before firing offlineimap off, that'd be awesome.
Well, it looks like start of Network Manager reimplementation...
Posted Nov 14, 2011 20:53 UTC (Mon) by job (guest, #670)
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Some of us move between external screens and projectors all the time. That got more common when we started using laptops as our primary computers. That's why we need to change resolution on the fly so often. Ready made profiles don't really cut it. A good command line utility might, but it's very convenient to have it readily accessible at all times.
Well, it looks like start of Network Manager reimplementation...
Posted Nov 17, 2011 12:48 UTC (Thu) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106)
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>Trivial as in "open the lid and you can start using the Internet" or "I can go to different building without closing the lid and it'll automatically connect to another AP with different SSID" ?
I don't need custom scripts for that, just having wpa_supplicant properly configured does the latter (and I don't close my laptop lid unless I'm shutting down, so I just don't know about the former).
>This starts looking as script-language reimplementation of Network Manager. May be better to use the real thing?
If NM were just a collection of scripts which ran in certain conditions which it could detect accurately, maybe I would. What it seems to be is a convoluted mess designed to make easy things easy, hard things impossible while introducing six new points of failure inside a black box I can neither inspect nor control.
>Or perhaps (as drag suspects) you just enjoy suffering.
My setup allows me to connect wirelessly without effort and to easily recover from a myriad of wireless connectivity issues, ranging from "The buggy driver decided to randomly stop functioning" to "Oh my the radio just switched off of its own accord" to "The AP thinks I need to reconnect" to "The AP just got mad and disappeared for 30 seconds, but it's back now." I could go on. NM tends to freak out unless everything runs exactly as expected and - worse! - tends to automatically do the *wrong* thing for the situation. wpa_supplicant handles the common case correctly and does *nothing* in the uncommon case, allowing me to choose the appropriate resolution. Call that "suffering" if you like, I call it liberating.
>LCD made screen resolution adjustment kinda pointless (there are just one native resolution and X.org servers were able to find and use it for quite long time) and as for wireless... it's not the question of "how to configure it" (you don't configure it all that often), but how to use it.
Semantics. When I want to change my screen resolution during a session from one thing to another, I xrandr. Any graphical tool would just be a more convoluted way to issue the same instructions I issue by hand (and likely after tripping through menus whose structure I can never quite remember between infrequent use). Nothng's easier than "[xterm keybinding]xrandr -whatever-i-want[CTRL+D]"
>I'm not sure I remember the time when I was last forced to think about the fact that I have different SSIDs at home and at work, etc.
Good. Same here. You don't need NM for that.
>Okay, I lie: when I obtain new laptop (or tablet, or anything else) I need to briefly recall that you need to actually enter the names of APs and accompanying passwords (the one at work which requires new certificate stored in TPM is especially painful to setup), but then I just forget all about configs - I just use the internat/Internet and that's it.
Good. What does this have to do with NM? You aren't describing, so far, anything that NM does that wpa_supplicant doesn't.
wpa_supplicant is great and makes my life easier, whereas NM has never done anything but cause me pain. I can't find a single feature of NM that is useful (other than "We wrote our GUI tools against it instead of just using wpa_supplicant like normal people") and I suspect that it would never have existed if Fedora had had a sane way to configure networks to begin with.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 13, 2011 16:05 UTC (Sun) by Frej (subscriber, #4165)
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But NM also uses wpa_supplicant? So what's the technical difference? :)
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 10, 2011 18:46 UTC (Thu) by cmccabe (guest, #60281)
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> I am curious as to what software you use and recommend for these
> things when you run only a window manager today?
For me, wicd is a good replacement for NetworkManager.
If you would like a graphical way to use xrandr, you could try lxrandr.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 10, 2011 20:08 UTC (Thu) by pataphysician (guest, #73773)
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for RandR I use ARandR for a gui, or just used commands, or use my openbox menu items and hot keys I created, for my most common usage, which is to mostly to rotate the screen. There is also Drandr for use with dmenu, and urandr and xrandr guis.
I use blueman or commands for bluetooth. Also have some openbox menu items I created for some connections.
For networking I use netcfg with profiles for main networks and wifi-select for random wireless connects. There are guis for netcfg also but I don't use them.
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 14, 2011 20:57 UTC (Mon) by job (guest, #670)
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Thanks for all the suggestions (you and everyone else). RandR seems to be the most troublesome part of the package. The GUIs people have suggested here aren't really as polished as the GNOME/KDE ones, but I'm happy to try them as I need to find a new desktop environment (again).
Helper software for twm/fvwm/etc
Posted Nov 10, 2011 23:00 UTC (Thu) by Wol (guest, #4433)
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Last time I used randr it was broken. I had a borken screen resolution, tried to use randr to make it work (for a novice computer user) and it was useless.
To the point they ended up ditching their linux system and going Windows instead :-(