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Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register)Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register)Posted Nov 10, 2011 4:17 UTC (Thu) by jcm (subscriber, #18262)Parent article: Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register)
I've been very impressed with XFCE. It's proven to me that there should be equal weight put into:
1). The overall quality of the software.
The latter turns out to be pretty important, and as with so many things in life it isn't until a forcing function causes you to consider assumptions you had (that project X, Y, or Z would never do A, B, or C) that you realize those assumptions were merely assumptions, never stated intentions, and all of the risks that go along with that.
I enjoy using the Linux kernel because I know at no point is Linus going to turn around and throw it all away, and I enjoy XFCE as an interim solution for all of the same reasons.
Jon.
(Log in to post comments)
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 8:15 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
Intend and goal behind GNOME has always been the same, provide great software available to all. See http://www.gnome.org/. This has been the same goal for a very very long time. That GNOME 3 is not for you, really unfortunate, but fail to see the relation of you disliking GNOME 3 with "stated intent and goals". Think you agree with the goal, just not how it is executed.
It also does not matter if "Linus is going to turn around and throw it all away". What does that matter? It is free software, he can throw away / delete his copy. Pretty sure he does that every so often, if only in a benchmark.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 11:09 UTC (Thu) by tuxmania (guest, #70024) [Link]
The problem is that Gnome 3 is not great software. It alienates its users to the extent that very long time users jump ship in droves. It is a slow quirky resource hog that fails miserably at improving workflows of both new and old users.
Im fine with Gnome 3 becoming a developer only circlejerk project where the devs awe and oohs about it but where users was tumbleweeds now blows past. Just dont fool yourself thinking you are just misunderstood and knows everything better than the users.
Making great software demeands listening to the users. If your only intended users is yourself, fine. Somehow i suspect thats not the goal is it?
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 12:01 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
That is a curious theory you have, but it ignores the fact that Gnome-shell actually kicks ass and is getting better.
It just takes a while for new software to reach the similar level of usability and capabilities as old software. That is why it's stupid to re-write software unless you have too.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 20:11 UTC (Thu) by deepfire (subscriber, #26138) [Link]
Are there plans to re-instate the static, fixed workspace grid layout?
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 12, 2011 10:49 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
Not at the moment I think. But extensions can provide that and people are working on ensuring the extension infrastructure is good enough for that. There is some conflict though as the default should be good enough. If 75% of the users install an extension, it shouldn't be an extension but default behaviour.
Did see that the overview mode might be changed a little (design wiki had new mockups), but too early to exactly know what they're changing.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 13, 2011 17:04 UTC (Sun) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]
Isn't it weird to be performing these experiments using the production release?
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 13, 2011 19:40 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]
Extensions are a perfectly good place to create experiments on top of a production release.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 21, 2011 17:11 UTC (Mon) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]
I think bronson means the current releases seem more like experiments, if they need so many changes every time (the same goes for Unity, really).
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 21:00 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
That's definitely not a 'fact' but your personal opinion.
It would be a fact if droves of new users suddenly flocked to GNOME3. But that's not exactly what's happening. Quite the opposite, in fact - users are fleeing GNOME3.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 13, 2011 7:27 UTC (Sun) by russell (subscriber, #10458) [Link]
The only ass GNOME has kicked is it's users. I've put time and effort into GNOME, promoting GNOME, having GNOME adopted as a platform for paid work. Now they have crippled the platform, alienated users, and destroyed any confidence I had in using it as a base for other systems. Would I trust GNOME with another 10 year road map. No way!
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 13, 2011 16:09 UTC (Sun) by Frej (subscriber, #4165) [Link]
Your life is ruined! Give up!
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 13, 2011 17:02 UTC (Sun) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]
If you mean, "your desktop is ruined! Switch desktops!" then your comment makes perfect sense.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 14, 2011 8:52 UTC (Mon) by russell (subscriber, #10458) [Link]
perhaps you miss understand. If gnome was just a desktop then no big deal. But it's also a platform on which to develop products that put food on the table. Now that it's taken this direction and loosing users, and become somewhat crippled, it's not a very attractive/reliable platform to build on. There are more people than just me paying attention and giving GNOME a wide berth. This year, the next, and maybe forever, won't be the year of the desktop for GNOME unless they do it all themselves. But that isn't going to happen. They are too busy ripping and rebuilding the foundations.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 12:17 UTC (Thu) by mordae (subscriber, #54701) [Link]
> The problem is that Gnome 3 is not great software.
Yes, but it seems to be getting better every release.
> It alienates its users to the extent that very long time users jump ship in droves.
I jumped the ship. Then I tried again in F16-alpha and it rocked so much that I've kept it.
> It is a slow quirky resource hog
I don't perceive it as slow. On the contrary, it's approximately same as compiz and definitely feels lighter then KDE4.
> that fails miserably at improving workflows of both new and old users.
Not really. It did improve mine. I've got rid of the compulsive need to have things organized on a few well-known workspaces and instead perform tasks in a stack-like manner. The "there is always one more workspace under the current one" aspect is cool.
Yes, there are hassles. Like notification icons I had to put to the panel using a custom 4-line extension. Theme you need to hack up yourself. But in the end, it's actually a pretty comfy environment that finally found a way to use that weird Windows button.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 12:36 UTC (Thu) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] I have to disagree. After getting to know Gnome 3 well enough, I'm using XFCE (some glitch prevents Gnome shell from starting). Using its "Gnome-2-similar" UI gets in my way now, I've noticed some frecuent operations are faster in Gnome 3 than here. Gnome shell sure is very different, but once you get to know it it is natural and plenty fast enough.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 13:49 UTC (Thu) by deepfire (subscriber, #26138) [Link]
Horst, but how do you deal with the multitude of open terminals/emacs frames?
The fixed grid provided a way to organise them spatially, whereas, as we all know, Gnome 3 only gives you a choice of linear, intra-same-app-type switching model.
Were you forced to lower the amount of same-app windows?
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 15:59 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
> The fixed grid provided a way to organise them spatially, whereas, as we all know, Gnome 3 only gives you a choice of linear, intra-same-app-type switching model.
I am not sure what you mean by that.
Gnome-shell is setup in such a way that you it allows you to do 'switch-by-application' or 'switch-between-application-windows', depending on context and method used.
Like:
Previous desktops only allowed switching between windows. Whether or not those windows were associated with one another was not taken into account.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 18:37 UTC (Thu) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]
The problem I have with gnome-shell is that it is not convenient to switch from one program to a particular window of another.
e.g., I want to switch from my web browser to the particular terminal window running mutt to write a mail. I used to be able to do this with Alt+Tab, now it's Alt-Tab followed by between 0 and nterminals-1 Alt-` keypresses to do so.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 19:11 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
Only the first time you flip between the terminal and your browser. If you are switching back and forth between apps it should default to the window you last used for that application.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 20:09 UTC (Thu) by deepfire (subscriber, #26138) [Link]
I have a diverse working set of same-app windows, what do I do?
Again, many emacs frames, many terminal apps. What is the proposed Gnome 3 workflow?
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 20:51 UTC (Thu) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]
If you can get your terminal emulator to create its windows with a different WM_CLASS depending on their purpose then they will show up as separate top-level applications in gnome-shell, which is pretty cool. This may be one component of a solution.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 21:03 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]
The proposed workflow is to switch to xfce.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 20:22 UTC (Thu) by deepfire (subscriber, #26138) [Link]
Let me tell you what I mean.
I have a 6x6 grid virtual desktop layout. Most of the desktops are occupied by full screen windows -- either terminals or Emacs frames.
The planar layout allows me to use my spatial intuition, which, in the end, allows me to manage many more windows.
It's simply possible for me to remember the layout of things on a 6x6 grid.
It is beyond possibility for me to remember anything about a fixed 1x36 line, especially when the elements come and go. It is also vastly less practical to move in such a layout.
Feel free to ask any further questions.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 22:28 UTC (Thu) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> The planar layout allows me to use my spatial intuition, which, in the end, allows me to manage many more windows.
Never you mind the spatial intuition - as is, gnome shell won't even let your _see_ where your stuff is.
It's a bit like this. You have drawers with socks, undies, shirts etc. Normally, each of the drawers has a picture on it of what's in it and generally, drawers are not interchanged, unless you decide to rearrange.
Gnome shell version if this is that you are not allowed to put pictures on your drawers, your drawers get occasionally reshuffled (depending on how you decide to dress in the morning) and obviously, you actually need to look into each one to see what's in it every single time you need something.
The rationale is that this is preventing you from becoming a compulsive clothes changer. :-)
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 14:30 UTC (Fri) by mstefani (subscriber, #31644) [Link]
That's exactly why Gnome Shell didn't work for me as it destroys the visual model of the desktop in my head.
I visually know where my window is. I don't have to search for it (ALT-TAB is searching) I just go there: keypress to the desired workspace and mouse move to the desired window (mostly tiled terminals). Add to that focus follows mouse and I've switched windows fast and without any cognitive effort.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 17:15 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Quite. I'm not sure it's even a visual model: I do exactly the same, and I have no visual memory at all to the extent that I have trouble recognising myself in a mirror. I think we're using the same neural system we use to navigate around physical spaces: switching to my work mail Emacs window feels similar mentally to walking to the shops (only it takes much less time, <0.2s rather than five minutes: nonetheless, I know the route from wherever I am and I know the surroundings). This system is evolutionarily ancient (google 'hippocampus place cells') and very efficient, so piggybacking on it seems like a good idea for user-interface metaphors.
Now one of the principal attributes of physical spaces is that they do not rearrange themselves spontaneously as you walk through them. Thus, we should probably try to avoid doing that here, too. I can't think of *anything* in the real world that a spontaneously reordering list could be modelled as. (Windows's alt-tab lists are just as bad. Watching users peck laboriously through them is painful.)
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 17, 2011 12:56 UTC (Thu) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]
This thread describes how I manage windows on virtual desktops, too. Funny that now the spatial-memory argument is working against GNOME, hmm....
It's easy to remember where my web browser is (always the same desktop) and where my irc client is (always the same, different desktop) and where I left the GIMP the last time I used it... and since my pager is in the corner of the screen it's always a fast mouse+click to get to any app. I have a hard time imagining an improvement.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 18, 2011 8:02 UTC (Fri) by deepfire (subscriber, #26138) [Link]
I think it is beyond possibility, that none of the Gnome 2 developers were alienated by Gnome 3 making this model of interaction impossible.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 22, 2011 5:29 UTC (Tue) by Zizzle (guest, #67739) [Link]
Another +1 here.
Static work space allocations (you always know where your email client is) which is only a click away is a massive win.
I also bind workspace navigation to Ctrl+<Arrow> so I can do it with one hand.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 15:01 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
I see various people responding here that love it. I don't recognize them as GNOME developers. That it doesn't meet your way of working, unfortunate. Not perfect for everyone. Hopefully better in future.
But "alienates its users to the extent that very long time users jump ship in droves". There is no reliable data to support or determine this. And to be honest, the goal is to create a really usable desktop. I do see loads of reactions, but that is to be expected with such a big change.
Regarding data gathering: On slightly less technical websites I see GNOME 3 being confused with Unity. Not everyone understands the difference.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 16:15 UTC (Thu) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]
> the goal is to create a really usable desktop
Is this true? If so, then why didn't Gnome 3 include less ambitious UI changes? That would have been far more usable for the majority of Gnome 2 users.
There must have been different, and I'm sure perfectly valid, goals that drove Gnome 3.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 19:45 UTC (Thu) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
You're assuming that:
1) less ambitious UI changes results in a really usable desktop 2) that GNOME 3 is not usable for the existing users 3) that we should only look at the existing users, instead of everyone
I find GNOME 3 to be a a really good start. I do see some issues with it, but it is improving with each release.
But that is not the reason for GNOME 3. The reason was stagnation and wanting to clean up the platform (all the deprecated crap). There was no concrete idea what GNOME 3 should contain.. we (release team) left that for designers, the various maintainers and developers. Idea was first openly discussed @ UDS in Prague (2008).
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 3:23 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]
1) Less ambition would have meant fewer Gnome 3 usability regressions. So, yes, that's probably a good assumption.
2) No, Gnome 3 is not very usable to regular Gnome 2 users. We're talking about regular people, people who tend to dislike relearning how to do simple things. If kernel devs are ranting about how difficult it is to adopt the Gnome 3 way, just imagine how Bob the Middle Manager is fairing. Or Aunt Tillie. :) (and if you think I'm hard on Gnome 3, you should hear my non-techy wife talk about it...)
3) I do see some existing Gnome users howling in pain. I do not see Gnome 3 attracting "everyone else". If you have evidence that there's a silent surge of non-Gnome-users queuing up to use Gnome 3 then please, by all means, do share. I'd love to see it.
I love removing code as much as anyone. It truly is one of the pleasures of programming. But most of the Gnome 3 pain seems to be coming from its UI changes. That has very little to do with deprecation and almost everything to do with design.
I find Gnome 3 to be a really good start too. With some refinement, it could be truly impressive, far better than Gnome 2. Today, though, it's just not ready for the distros to be deploying by default.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 13:56 UTC (Fri) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
1) I don't see regressions (talking about focus-follows-mouse?); just stuff that could work better. It is a first release, of course it is not going to be as refined as the 16th release of the previous major version. We called it 3.0; we could've called it 2.34.
2) You're making assertations without backing them up regarding "not very usable". But yeah, there are loads of books on change management. I don't think not changing anything ever is the solution to this.
3) Agree in that various users hate it. But no data on how many are leaving and how many are joining.
Pretty cool you see the potential though :-)
I guess we more or less agree except our expectations are different for what qualifies a .0 and so on.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 16:06 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]
1) No, I've long since given up on FFM in Gnome. I'm talking about all the workflow that Gnome 3 changed. Every simple task that an end user has to relearn. Whenever a Gnome 2 user is confused by Gnome 3, that's the sign of a UI regression. A few regressions in a release are fine (the panel definitely needed to go), but widespread regressions are pure frustration to people who just want to get their work done.
2) Let me get this straight, you disagree with "people tend to dislike relearning how to do simple things"? I'm happy to go digging for citations but, if I find them, I'd like you to acknowledge that you were wrong.
> I don't think not changing anything ever is the solution to this
When have I ever advocated this? That sounds horrible. There's a huge, very usable gray area between stagnant and change-everything..
It seems like where we differ is how much empathy we have for the end user. I believe people get used to a certain way of doing things and would like to continue using their knowledge, muscle memory, and chosen desktop environment. Habits can be changed, gradually. You seem to think that a brand new, mostly-working tablety UI trumps all that. So be it. I just wish that DEs with this opinion weren't the Fedora default. I think it's giving Linux on the Desktop a bad reputation.
There's no doubt Gnome 3 will mature and become popular again. I just don't acknowledge the need for this painful transition period.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 18:47 UTC (Fri) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
2) No I was saying I completely agree.
The rest I already understood, no not replying as I think we understand eachother, just differ on opinion.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 22:10 UTC (Fri) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]
> It is a first release...
> We called it 3.0... > what qualifies a .0...
And so on. This is something I have heard previously... Oh, yes. It was when KDE4 was released. It's all just poor excuses, if you ask me.
> I don't see regressions [...]; just stuff that could work better.
Yeah, right. Microsoft said exactly the same about Windows ME and Vista.
> no data on how many are leaving
And, does it matter? Let me ask you something: you really believe that there are more users coming or leaving GNOME?
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 12, 2011 10:44 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
It is not the same. With KDE 4.0, a few months before it was renamed to a developers release. From what I heard, it was pretty buggy and not everything was complete. This is not how I see GNOME 3.0.
However, there is a big change and comparing such a big change with the 16th release of the 2.x cycle, and not with 2.0 for me is very logical that it doesn't work out. I see 3.0 as really good and way better quality than I expected.
You're comparing to KDE 4, bringing up ME, and suggesting things. Then stating that data collection doesn't matter. With any big change, there is pain. You have loads of articles written about the effects of change, etc.
We've had pretty much the same feedback during GNOME 2.0.
Without any data, no idea how 3.0 compares to 2.0.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 12, 2011 10:49 UTC (Sat) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
if you go back and look at the full release notes for KDE 4.0 you will see that they were saying from the beginning that that marked the point where the infrastructure was deemed ready for developers to use.
unfortunately the press release announcements didn't make this prominent enough (the info was there, but buried). Many of the articles that were then published completely dropped this part of it.
it's not a matter of them "renaming it to a development release"
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 12, 2011 13:47 UTC (Sat) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
I'm not talking about the release notes, I am talking about all the blogs and so on (planet kde) that were written before 4.0. Only a few months (max 2) before the release of 4.0, I saw a sudden change that it was a development release. The message switched, and not everyone noticed the change. It never got the impression that 4.0 was considered a development release from the start. Not sure what you mean with press release, those things you write yourself as a project (I guess misunderstood importance to highlight that bit?).
And what I mean with liking GNOME 3.0 is that I consider it really stable and not a development release. But it needs some time before it really shows off the ideas. Meaning with Contacts, Documents, Boxes (3.4), crash app, etc (see http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/10/gnome-design-up...). At the moment the extra applications are pretty simplistic. The plan is to launch an beta extensions website on Dec 1st. So finally something that (IMO) blows away the tweaking possibilities of GNOME 2.x. I do think 3.0 and everything that followed is the right timeframe though, it is useful to feedback on 3.0, not 3.0 with hundreds of extensions.
Could've also not released 3.0 and 2.32 (2.32 was only released because 3.0 was not good enough at that time), kept developing without releasing anything for a few years (e.g. not everyone agreed to doing a 2.32; it required time that people rather spent on 3.0). I think "release early, release often" dance is good. That is how you can still change things. If you change fundamentals late, it is just very hard and requires loads of time to adjust.
Also saw some notion that distributions switched too early, but most non-rolling release distributions seem to only provide GNOME 3 as of 3.2. Exception is Fedora, but that distribution is well known to give the latest technology asap. I run Mageia myself, and the latest stable (v1) provides GNOME 2.32 (IIRC); v2 will have 3.4 (+systemd:). Mandriva completely got rid of most of their packages and only support KDE. Opensuse only switched with 3.2. Seems like a normal acceptance cycle.
Regarding forcing, we've ported metacity, gnome-panel at 3.0 and gnome-applets as of 3.2. Various big changes occurred during 3.0 (simplification of System Settings and put the rest in a tweak tool), but I saw that maintainers wanted to do that for years. Only by announcing 3.0 maintainers saw it as a go-ahead (so they first simplified System Settings, which triggered the start of gnome-tweak-tool). But the maintainers could've done the same during any 2.x release. During 2.x it was delayed because someone had to write a tweak tool; in 3.0 it was done and as a result someone wrote the tweak tool.
But oh well, I still use "spatial mode" a bit :P
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 12, 2011 20:14 UTC (Sat) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link]
I think "release early, release often" is a phrase that is overused, especially in this case. Want my personal opinion? Well, since you asked...
GNOME 3 was released far too soon. That would have been ok, had things like the Shell been optional and the existing 2.x real panel and so on stayed around. But instead, everything was thrown away in one go and replaced with an early release. A few years down the line, those of us who felt forced into switching might not be nearly as annoyed once the features catch up with 2.x. As it is, the mindset to me said "you'll take this and like it" (fine with a brand new project, not ok after ten years of using something).
As I said, GNOME 3 finally made me realize that I should not rely on GNOME to remain a consistent UI in the future. It happened to do so in the past, but is willing to throw caution to the wind and force me to change my entire workflow on a whim. This won't do. And I can't use it again :)
Jon.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 12, 2011 22:04 UTC (Sat) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
the key to "release early, release often" is that your releases are evolutionary. with GNOME that would be _adding_ Shell as an option in addition to the 2.x way of doing things and then later flipping the default.
this doesn't go well with people who thing that a new release should include revolutionary things or it's a 'worthless' release.
it is actually harder to do major changes with evolutionary releases, but the result is usually better.
We see the exact same issue in patches. It's easier to do one 'big bang' patch that changes everything and rips out an old system to put in your new wiz=bang solution.
but if you can go back and create a patch series that is evolutionary instead, it's much easier to get review and feedback.
In some cases you find that the users really didn't want the wiz-bang feature the way you initially envisioned it, but the evolution allows them to benifit from your work even if the end result ends up a bit different.
In other cases the mere act of going back and breaking the change down into logical steps ends up showing the developer places that things can be cleaned up, simplified, generalized, or otherwise improved that were not obvious in the 'big bang' change.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 12, 2011 23:18 UTC (Sat) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link]
Perfectly stated. This is the main problem with GNOME 3. There are other issues, but this is primary.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 15, 2011 2:39 UTC (Tue) by nevets (subscriber, #11875) [Link]
I totally 100% agree with everything you just said.
Look at how Linus changed Linux 2.6 into Linux 3.0. It was no different than any other release. There was absolutely *no* wiz bang features to merit a 3.0 (except that ftrace function tracing was redesigned and now works with modules :-).
I've been using Linux since 1996, and played around with fvwm at first, and I forgot when I started using gnome. I liked it at the time. IIRC, when gnome 2 came out, it was radically different too, and lots of things broke. I may have switched away from gnome 2 at that time, but things were not as developed back then so radically different wasn't as different as things are today.
When gnome 2 settled down (and brought back a lot of features that it removed), I started using it again and its taken me 10 years to perfect a workflow. I've tried many, and what I ended up with was something that works great for me. Actually, I really only use gnome panel, as I've dumped metacity the first day it came out. I'm a sawfish lover, and when that is hard to install, I've actually liked xfwm4 (I've started using that in the last year).
Last week I did an update to my main box (debian/testing) and it blew away gnome2 and installed gnome3. The gnome-panel has none of the functionality I've come to depend on. My 10 years of perfecting a workflow just went out the window. I bitched like hell, and the only thing that I hear from the damn gnome3 lovers is "oh, its better if you do it this way". BULLSHIT! I've spent 10 years perfecting something to get my work done and I'm not about to change everything just because people like eye candy.
gnome is just a platform to get work done. If I notice it, then it's broken. The same goes with kernels and computers in general. You should not be focusing on the platform that you are working on, you should be focusing on your work. The platform is the tool for your work, not the work itself.
This is the heart of the problem with gnome3 developers. They are focused so much on gnome being the end product, and force users to do it their way.
The reason I started using Linux in the first place is because it let me control the computer, unlike Windows and Apple which make the computer control you. I have a strong feeling that gnome is trying to control me and trying hard to keep me from controlling gnome. This is why I'm so pissed off, and yes, I have started setting up my desktop with Xfce.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 15, 2011 8:06 UTC (Tue) by deepfire (subscriber, #26138) [Link]
Humans use their adaptivity in the pursuit of workflow optimum.
Time is spent in this process -- months, years.
Gnome 3 wasted all these efforts, with the promise of something better.
Something was indeed better, but still, the amount lost was far too much to be acceptable.
So, in the end, the most damage inflicted was to the people who invested heavily in workflow adaptation/customisations.
The geeks.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 13, 2011 23:10 UTC (Sun) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> But "alienates its users to the extent that very long time users jump ship in droves". There is no reliable data to support or determine this.
Found this by accident. Maybe not reliable, but indicative nevertheless:
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 18:04 UTC (Thu) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link]
You have to admit, that is a pretty vague goal.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 13:59 UTC (Fri) by ovitters (subscriber, #27950) [Link]
jcm said that knowing the goal of a project somehow relates to GNOME 2 and GNOME 3. I think there is no relation. So of course the existing goal is vague; this is why I said the goal has no relation to 2 and 3.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 13, 2011 8:51 UTC (Sun) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link]
My point is/was that there was an assumption (that I and others had) built up after ten years that GNOME was catering to us as users and would never do exactly what it did. But the reality is that the assumption was flawed. It was wrong to assume the project would continue along the 2.x road with iterative stable releases based upon tried-and-tested technology. It's fine for the project to do whatever it wants *but* it has been a useful reminder that one should choose things such as a desktop wisely and after considering where the project wants to head. Now that I realize GNOME is willing to do what it has done I would never want to use it again.
At the moment, it seems that Xfce's goals are in line with what I want as a user: a really dull and boring desktop environment that will look roughly the same in 5 years from now and that I can rely on not to be overhauled in some subsequent release to take it in a radical new direction. But it is going to be important for me to review the goals of Xfce before I rely on it in the longer term. For now, it's an interim "quick, I need GNOME 2.x back" solution.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 10, 2011 19:35 UTC (Thu) by sorpigal (subscriber, #36106) [Link]
I always thought the goal of GNOME was to create a universal desktop. Something for everyone. A swiss army knife that is good in any situation. I'm not sure when that changed to making a desktop that is for only some people who (we think) are the most common. Maybe it didn't, maybe my impression was just always wrong.
This ship sailed sooooo long ago it's not even funny... Posted Nov 10, 2011 20:17 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] This was done with GNOME 2.0 - when GNOME developers understood that combinatorial explosion from way too many options is killing them. Thus the removed most knobs and slowly added them back over the course of GNOME 2.x development in order to satisfy larger and larger number of users. GNOME 3.o started another cycle. It really looks like we are doomed to repeat this cycle again and again. It happens with browsers (Netscape Communicator becomes Netscape 6 which is so slow and unwieldy it dies and Phoenix^WFirebird^WFirefox takes it's place; then Firefox becomes too bloated and unwieldy and Chromium takes it place), it happens with desktops (first GNOME, then KDE, then GNOME again), etc. Somehow it's tolerated when one project dies and another replaces it but when single project reinvents itself - everyone complain... I'm not sure why kernel does not suffer from the same fate, but my explanation is that it happens because there are a lot of kernel developers - and that means their crap-tolerance can be so low that crap is not growing in codebase too fast and can be removed without revolutions. If someone will try to apply the same rules to GUI development then project will just die stillborn.
This ship sailed sooooo long ago it's not even funny... Posted Nov 11, 2011 3:38 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]
> I'm not sure why kernel does not suffer from the same fate
Because Linus understands how important the kernel is to its users. Regressions are not tolerated, no matter how expedient or unimportant they seem. The kernel suffers long deprecation cycles and lots of code churn merely because of this ideal.
If only Gnome and KDE had the same maturity, maybe Linux on the Desktop would be happening by now.
This ship sailed sooooo long ago it's not even funny... Posted Nov 11, 2011 9:56 UTC (Fri) by kragilkragil2 (guest, #76172) [Link]
Amen!
If only Gnome and KDE weren't so arrogant and lazy to just screw their loyal users just to get new toys to play with.
Maybe evolution will take care of this in the very long run, as Gnome and KDE will die a slow userbase death (will still exist as developer playgrounds) and XFCE and LXDE will take over.
With projects like the raspberrypie ARM computer and major parts of the developing world not in the possession of dev machines this could change.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 1:34 UTC (Fri) by TerryNewton (guest, #81311) [Link]
> I always thought the goal of GNOME was to create a
> universal desktop. Something for everyone. ... > maybe my impression was just always wrong.
I think perception is key here - in particular the perception that the shell is all there is. It is not.. under the hood I've discovered that Gnome 3 is pretty much like Gnome 2 except it's cleaner. After using gnome tweak tool to enable the nautilus-controlled desktop and window buttons, and adding a panel with an app menu (I use LxPanel) it's basically back to the same old stuff I know and love. The shell is optional.. LxPanel, desktop icons etc work fine with the shell running, or make a plain nautilus/panel session without the shell.
The real question is will the nautilus desktop functionality remain intact?
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 14, 2011 19:24 UTC (Mon) by bats999 (subscriber, #70285) [Link]
I use Nautilus on the desktop also; it makes things a lot more usable for me. Folder shortcuts and script launchers come to mind. I'm sure there's a Shell way of doing this but RTFM? - TL;DR. This is supposed to be an intuitive interface after all. So yeah, I hope the Shell developers don't bury Nautilus before it's time.
(On a different note, I don't think it's accurate to say XFCE doesn't concern itself with new features. The showstopper for me when I tried it years ago was thunar's inability to browse network resources. From what I've gleaned, that's a core feature now.)
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 8:14 UTC (Fri) by jku (subscriber, #42379) [Link]
"Something for everyone"
Ah, the guaranteed recipe for the perfect end-user product :)
Personally I'm glad GNOME is being developed as a product and not as a swiss army knife project... we have enough of the latter already in the realm of DEs.
Why GNOME refugees love Xfce (Register) Posted Nov 11, 2011 5:30 UTC (Fri) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link]
What I'm saying is that there was an unstated "assumption" that I and others had that GNOME was going to continue to cater to us because it had (happened to) in the past. But there was never a stated intent to do that, just happenstance that many of us took as implication. So my point is that it's very important to consider the goals for projects before relying on them. I *should* have looked at where GNOME wanted to go years ago and planned for contingency at that point, but I let myself get comfortable with 2.x because it's what was there and being offered by default on many distros. The correct thing to do in the future (for me) is to find a project like Xfce that promises to remain "boring" forever and to stick with it, not just to find a GNOME 2.x clone. It needs to be both bland and promise to remain so.
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