Ubuntu 11.10 (Oneiric Ocelot) released [LWN.net]

Ubuntu 11.10 (Oneiric Ocelot) released

Posted Oct 14, 2011 12:05 UTC (Fri) by AlexHudson (subscriber, #41828) [Link]

Ok, just for S&G I did actually do this.

On a fresh install, I do 'apt-get install gnome-shell'.

Response: it wants to download ~80Mb of packages (39 of which are new), and that's just to get the shell, i.e. the very bare bones of Gnome 3.

If I want gnome-desktop-environment, which seems to be much closer to an actual Gnome 3 desktop, it wants to download ~195Mb. In contrast, to install xfdesktop4 it wants ~11Mb of packages, and kde-plasma-desktop wants ~89Mb.

I mean, unless you're making a point about how great dependency resolution is, I'm really not sure I see what you're on about. Yes, "apt-get install gnome-shell" gets you a bare bones Gnome 3. So does "apt-get install kde-plasma-desktop". They both want to download about the same amount of packages. By that logic, Ubuntu is based on KDE 4.

(I would also reply to PaulSladen, but I don't get what point is being made there either).

Ubuntu 11.10 (Oneiric Ocelot) released

Posted Oct 14, 2011 12:20 UTC (Fri) by BeS (subscriber, #43108) [Link]

>Now apt-get install gnome-shell. Log out. In the login screen, choose "GNOME" as your session. Login. Witness GNOME 3 with GNOME Shell, no Unity.

Sure, as you said you selected "GNOME" as your session and you got GNOME(3). If you select Unity you get Unity.

I'm with Alex. Unity (at least the 3D version) uses a lot of GNOME and Gtk+ technology but at the end it's a different desktop environment. The desktop itself is an integral part of a desktop environment. This together with all the integration of GNOME online accounts, IM, GNOME contacts, gnome documents, program handling, desktop handling,... creates an unique desktop experience for the user. This experience beside some programs is completely different between GNOME3 and Unity. With Unity you have some GNOME/Gtk+ apps, some GNOME/Gtk+ libs but as a whole it's not GNOME. Like XFCE is not GNOME just because it uses a lot of Gtk+/GNOME technology.

I can understand that the Ubuntu community is careful with respect to the communication regarding GNOME. But if you just look at the facts you have to say that Ubuntu now develops a new desktop even if it is based on GNOME/Gtk+ technology for now (future will show what happens because they also have the option to go with Qt/KDE technology as seen with Unity2D)

That's not a bad thing but we should call it what it is. Unity is Unity and GNOME is GNOME

Ubuntu 11.10 (Oneiric Ocelot) released

Posted Oct 14, 2011 12:52 UTC (Fri) by topyli (subscriber, #62267) [Link]

'gnome-desktop-environment' is an obsolete metapackage, now replaced with 'gnome'. It installs the standard upstream GNOME collection of software (close to what you find on Debian). If i try to install this package, apt wants me to install lots of applications and themes - 73 packages which would use 261 MB of disk space. And I'm using a very comfortable GNOME session already.

Obviously Ubuntu's set of default applications is different, so the download will be big.

gnome-shell's dependencies alone include gnome-panel, metacity, panel applets and other stuff that are related to the fallback mode. Naturally, none of this is installed on a default Ubuntu system.

None of this changes the fact that Unity simply sits on a GNOME 3 environment. It's just the shell.

Ubuntu 11.10 (Oneiric Ocelot) released

Posted Oct 14, 2011 13:22 UTC (Fri) by AlexHudson (subscriber, #41828) [Link]

Ok, so the umbrella package name was wrong, but the point remains - installing 'gnome' in Unity wants another 195Mb of download.

- we agree the set of default applications is different, and gnome apps are missing
- we agree that the fallback system is different, and gnome's fallback is missing
- I think we agree that it doesn't use Gnome's desktop manager GDM
- we agree it doesn't use the same theme, font or look etc.
- presumably we can agree that Unity has its own non-gnome APIs too

If we just install the barebones shell, what else do we get:
- apps
- on-screen keyboard
- introspection files for Gnome libraries (aka the actual Gnome API)
- gjs

So aside from the shell, the applications, the APIs, the desktop manager, the font, the theme, the UX, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, it is Gnome 3, yeah.

BeS summed it up best, "Unity is Unity and GNOME is GNOME". There's no shame in that, but there's also no point pretending otherwise.

Ubuntu 11.10 (Oneiric Ocelot) released

Posted Oct 14, 2011 18:57 UTC (Fri) by topyli (subscriber, #62267) [Link]

Can't really disagree with this. In fact, I got inspired to install the 'gnome' metapackage and will try to use those apps for a change. I can then meditiate on whether the applications matter so much. I actually suspect they do.

No verdict yet on rhythmbox vs. banshee :)

Ubuntu 11.10 (Oneiric Ocelot) released

Posted Oct 14, 2011 21:11 UTC (Fri) by alecs1 (guest, #46699) [Link]

I find it hard to believe that we still get these discussions about applications coming with a desktop at this point in time (and about disk space and maybe memory usage). All the applications I use are based on individual merit: my desktop could be called KDE 4, but this only means KWin, Plasma, Dolphin, Kate and Konsole (+ Klipper and the other little ones); all the other heavyweight applications are not KDE 4 based, ex. Opera, Amarok 1, Thunderbird, QtCreator, VLC, Pidgin, WinMerge.

I find that investing in 1 GiB of memory more is totally worth it for loading whatever library of my favourite but eccentric application, built maybe with LISP, MFC and Wine.

Amarok / Clementine

Posted Oct 23, 2011 3:10 UTC (Sun) by ccurtis (guest, #49713) [Link]

> Amarok 1

Hmm. Check out Clementine ( http://www.clementine-player.org/ ) if you're not yet familiar.