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MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

October 5, 2011

This article was contributed by Nathan Willis

Intel and the Linux Foundation (LF) jointly announced the Tizen project on September 27 in a pair of blog posts from LF Executive Director Jim Zemlin and MeeGo Technical Steering Group co-chair Imad Sousou. Tizen is a replacement for — or successor to — MeeGo in most respects, particularly because it appears (at the moment at least) that Intel will still be contributing developer resources to the project. But it also imports Linux-based technology from Samsung, which had long been a member and major contributor to the LiMo platform. Exactly what constitutes the Tizen project — technically and from a governance standpoint — is yet to be revealed. Meanwhile, a portion of the MeeGo volunteer development community is reluctant to jump in and may take MeeGo in a different direction.

Poking at the vague bits

What is immediately clear from the initial announcements is that Tizen is supplanting MeeGo as Intel's mobile Linux device initiative. Sousou's post spoke only of transitioning from MeeGo to Tizen, not co-existence. Tizen will target the same set of "vertical" device categories as MeeGo: smartphones, tablets, netbooks, smart TVs, and In-vehicle Infotainment (IVI) systems. Zemlin said that Tizen will adopt "the same principles and open source philosophies" as MeeGo, notably the "upstream first" approach to building releases primarily based on existing desktop Linux projects.

What is unclear is exactly what components Tizen will include, although Sousou said that HTML5 and JavaScript will replace Qt as the primary — if not sole — application development framework. Along those lines, MeeGo community manager Dawn Foster posted a welcome message on the new Tizen site that alluded to the fact that HTML5 does not supply device APIs for subsystems like "messaging, multimedia, camera, network, and social media," and that "for those who use native code in their applications, the Tizen SDK will include a native development kit." The SDK, however, is not scheduled to arrive until the first quarter of 2012.

An announcement on the LiMo Foundation site offers little elaboration, but does list the Wholesale Applications Community (WAC) platform alongside HTML5 as the development environment. WAC is a relatively-new coalition of handset manufacturers and mobile network operators attempting to define a standardized set of APIs for web runtimes. It currently defines APIs for accelerometers, cameras, calendar access, and contacts, and provides an Eclipse-based SDK.

Samsung itself has yet to make any formal announcement of its own at all, leading to a great deal of speculation over exactly what code the company is contributing to Tizen. Back in early September, there was public speculation that either Samsung was going to "join" MeeGo (perhaps rolling in its existing Linux-based OS Bada), or that LiMo would officially merge with MeeGo. Neither alternative seems to quite be the case. Samsung is one of LiMo's primary contributors, but LiMo is not an open source project — it defines a stack that uses the Linux kernel, but it uses proprietary components. Only LiMo Foundation member companies have access to most of the project's resources, and that does not appear to have changed as a result of the Tizen announcement.

Andrew Savory posted a detailed examination of the history of MeeGo and of Samsung's past Linux efforts. He argues that MeeGo's primary answer to the question "Why write applications for MeeGo?" was the popular and established cross-platform Qt framework. Absent a commitment to the project from Nokia, Intel looked for a substitute framework, and decided that HTML5 with JavaScript was the only framework with an established history and viable developer pool.

As for Samsung's code contributions, Savory suggests that the device maker will be donating Samsung Linux Platform (SLP), a LiMo-compliant OS that it has developed, but which has not yet been released in consumer products. What makes that possibility intriguing is that SLP uses GTK+ and the Enlightenment Foundation Libraries (EFL) as its application frameworks. Carsten "Rasterman" Haitzler from Enlightenment recently appeared on the Tizen mailing list, which suggests that EFL will be part of the "native" Tizen APIs, but he would not comment on any specifics.

Both Intel's Moblin and Nokia's Maemo used GTK+ prior to Nokia's acquisition of Qt; if Tizen does bring GTK+ back into the fold, it would be understandable that Intel and Samsung would want to downplay the yet-another-toolkit-swap angle and focus instead on the cross-platform availability of HTML5. Sousou's blog post rejects the notion that "evolving" MeeGo would have given it the platform it wanted, even by adding a robust web runtime. That suggests that the application framework for Tizen will incorporate deeper changes — but it will still likely be several months before anyone knows for sure.

The developer-on-the-street view

The lack of detail about the architecture of Tizen resulted in frustration among MeeGo community developers. The new Tizen mailing list is filled with questions about both the web runtime framework and how the underlying stack differs from MeeGo — questions that so far do not have answers. Post-announcement discussions on the MeeGo list are similar.

The LF is not shutting down the MeeGo project or infrastructure (at least for the time being), which led some MeeGo core contributors to call for continuing to develop MeeGo as an Intel-free project. That call to action seems to assume that Tizen will differ significantly from MeeGo. For his part, Dave Neary argued that it is simply too early to make such a call, and that one can only wait and see:

MeeGo is a collection of open source software components. Tizen will also be a collection of open source software components. which of those components will be different? There will certainly be a few, but I don't know how many. Which of the new components are currently closed and will need to be freed, and which of them are already free? I don't know.

Are there any software projects that people are attached to, which will not be part of Tizen? Dunno...

On the other hand, Thiago Macieira believes that the lack of information and Tizen's 2012 release date amount to asking developers to stop working for several months and wait:

At this point, it looks to me like a no-brainer decision. The big question will come when Tizen has something to show and the community can join. In the meantime, the community can do some soul-searching and figure out how it wants to answer that question

Neary and Macieira's comments were directed primarily at contributors to the MeeGo core. Developers of independent applications have different concerns to consider. They clearly cannot begin substantial work on any Tizen applications before the APIs and SDK start to take shape. Just as important, though, is whether or not the new Tizen platform means throwing out all of their Qt-based MeeGo code.

Nokia's Quim Gil said that the Qt project would be happy to "provide tools for [Tizen stakeholders] to make Tizen a first class Qt platform if they wish." Several others in the same thread (including Qt developers) concurred, noting that Qt will probably "just work" on Tizen if there are not major structural changes. Perhaps more importantly, Novomok announced on September 28 that it would support Qt integration on Tizen for commercial customers.

The near-term future is less certain for device-makers that have been planning MeeGo-based products. LF's Rudolf Streif provided some insight into the impact of the move for IVI vendors, saying "MeeGo IVI's work has always been focused on the middleware on top of the Linux stack provided by MeeGo Core to support the functionality required for vehicle applications such as connectivity to vehicle networks (CAN, MOST, etc), audio management, etc. [...] In that sense all the work that has been done for IVI in conjunction with MeeGo still applies to Tizen." Intel's Joel Clark said that there will be an update to MeeGo 1.2 sometime in 2011, and that engineering support will continue for another year, but that the next major release will no longer be based on MeeGo.

Reactions

To many MeeGo community members, the status of the code and makeup of the architecture was not the main issue. They felt betrayed by the Tizen move, which seemed like a blatant reversal of the public "Intel is not blinking on MeeGo" pledge the company made after Nokia's February announcement that it would start shipping Windows 7 phones. Such a platform shift was doubly hard on veterans from the Maemo project, who had weathered Nokia's departure earlier in the year as well as a major shift in the application development framework after Nokia purchased Qt. Moreover, some felt that the strategic shift from Qt to HTML5 (regardless of Samsung's involvement) constituted a breach of the "open governance" and meritocratic principles of the MeeGo project — Florent Viard even went so far as to call it a "takeover."

In the immediate aftermath, a number of other open source projects saw the pool of unhappy developers and tried to entice them over into joining their own distribution. Jos Poortvliet was the first, beckoning MeeGo developers to come joining the OpenSUSE project (seemingly to work on OpenSUSE's ARM port). Timo Jyrinki followed, inviting the developers to join Debian instead and contribute to its smartphone sub-projects. Aaron Seigo suggested that the developers join the KDE project's Plasma Active effort, and announced a number of meetings would be held in a community IRC channel later this week.

For some, however, neither waiting for a 2012 SDK nor signing up for a different project were appealing. Carsten Munk announced the re-activation of the Mer project on October 3. Mer was initially a community rebuild of Maemo, using only open source components. After MeeGo started picking up steam, Mer was suspended, and the developers instead focused their energies on porting MeeGo builds to the not-officially-supported N900 hardware.

The revitalized Mer is described as a "truly open and inclusive integration community" for MeeGo and Tizen devices. Munk set out the goals as building an open UX layer on top of MeeGo Core, while hopefully remaining compliant with Tizen, and breaking MeeGo down into a set of flexible and modular components that are easier for device manufacturers to work with than MeeGo's large and arguably complex compliance effort. The team has already deconstructed MeeGo into 302 packages, and coaxed it into booting into a Qt UI on a Raspberry Pi board.

If Mer picks up steam (and the project members have a proven track record in recent years), there would of course be bigger challenges to be addressed, such as governance and the potential desire to move away from MeeGo conventions (such as RPM packaging). That sort of discussion has already surfaced on the MeeGo discussion lists — although it is important to observe that most of those discussions are between other community members; Munk regards reusing the RPM and Open Build System infrastructure inherited from MeeGo as a done deal.

Wherever Mer (or a community-driven MeeGo) goes in the coming months, the real challenge will be when Tizen produces its own architecture plans and governance structures. It is easy to compare "work that's available now" to vapor and prefer the former. But if Intel and Samsung deliver a compelling alternative in Tizen — especially one that proves itself more stable than the recent history of Maemo and MeeGo — then the choice becomes more muddled.

For the time being, all anyone can do about Tizen is wait for details to emerge. Foster said that Intel is deliberately taking a slower approach this time around, at least with respect to community participation and governance issues, having learned from the high-profile launch of MeeGo. Regarding the HTML5 and WAC-based application framework, information is still scarce, and, as anyone who follows "open web" news knows, there are several competing frameworks and APIs out there already — including from established open source players like Mozilla and Google Chrome. Haitzler's appearance on the Tizen list and various other tidbits about SLP make it sound like the native APIs, too, will require much explanation, but there is still no official word. Until then, the community waits.


(Log in to post comments)

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 5, 2011 19:47 UTC (Wed) by kragilkragil2 (guest, #76172) [Link]

IMO the suits at Intel behaved like total aholes, saying one thing and then totally changing their minds without any community participation.
But it is not only Intel who look really bad, also the LF is just crapping on everything they said about Meego before and basically declare it dead (with usual "the code is out there" bla). That is not how you should handle _your_ community project.

From what I can see about Tizen and Limos SLP it looks like it will be a GTK/EFL/QT/HTML5 mess that might even use .deb again. Way to go guys! That is likely to beat the N9 in 2015. And Android and Ios probably never. Stupid .....

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 5, 2011 19:53 UTC (Wed) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]

I have little knowledge of how Tizen/MeeGo/Maemo/etc. works, so I could be totally wrong. But it seems that there's a general lack of sense of direction/purpose. What is the need? What exactly are they trying to create? For whom? With whom? To what end?

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 5, 2011 19:56 UTC (Wed) by ay (guest, #79347) [Link]

They're trying to "create" chip sales by offering an optimized platform that competes with WinCE and the like out of the box on their SoCs.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 6, 2011 3:27 UTC (Thu) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

One thing I never understood was why Intel doesn't simply partner with Canonical, Red Hat, or SuSE to offer a "netbook remix" of one of those distributions customized for Intel Atom. It seems like this would be much, much, more cost-effective and low-risk than trying to create a new distribution from scratch. Those guys have the expertise in setting up a Linux distribution and they also have a lot of folks who are willing to try out unstable builds and perhaps contribute to making them better.

If I were an engineer trying to build an embedded system around an Intel Atom, I would either go with Linux from scratch, or start from a well-known and well-understood distribution like Debian or Red Hat. I wouldn't bother to train everyone on the team on something completely new, which does pretty much the same thing as the old software did.

If the point is to sell into the phone and tablet space, then I don't see how Tizen can compete with Android and the other contenders. I'm curious if anyone has a different point of view, but from where I stand, I can't possibly see how they could succeed. It kind of pains me to say this because I know there are a lot of good engineers on the project, but that is how it looks to me right now.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 6, 2011 16:19 UTC (Thu) by ay (guest, #79347) [Link]

They did and it failed miserably. I may be mixing the timeline a little bit but as I recall they first partnered with Canonical and did a sort of Ubuntu-based Moblin. This didn't work well (Canonical has almost zero engineering resources, they can't actually write drivers and solve problems, and there were horrible hacks like touchpad interfaces implemented incorrectly, etc). Management changed and they got a Suse guy in charge, he scrapped the Canonical-based stuff and went RPM-based so then Moblin started looking more like SuSe and the like, in the end this was a mess too. So much for the "netbook remix" approach there, even if it did make sense on paper.

Meanwhile in MeeGo land they're trying to create an embedded distribution with the software stacks needed to do devices (ex: BT as a device, SoC support, touch screens, etc). This isn't supported well in "desktop Linux" anyway, they're competing with WinCE variants and Android and the like. The Linux distribution companies are no use here (especially not Canonical), this is work that consulting companies or device makers typically do. They were (are?) targeting POS, in-vehicle, and mobile devices.

In the end this absolutely can be done, I've seen companies do it successfully internally (at least for their own families of devices), it's just that no one has produced a quality usable and well-accepted "industry standard" stack that easily competes with Android, CE, etc. yet and Intel and friends seem to schizophrenic to pull it off.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 6, 2011 21:46 UTC (Thu) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

I get the impression that Canonical is more focused on user interfaces than on drivers and plumbing, so maybe they were not the best choice for this kind of work.

But I absolutely don't buy the idea that Debian or Red Hat is not a reasonable starting point for an embedded distribution. I guess part of the reason I feel that way is because in the past, I've worked at two different companies that have done exactly that. One company used Red Hat 9 as the starting point for their embedded distro; the other used Debian.

It would be nice to see touch-screen support and bluetooth-as-a-device support in mainline Linux, but that hardly justifies a completely new distribution. I guess getting X to work with touch screens was always going to be fugly, but Tizen uses X anyway, so they have to solve that problem anyway.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 7, 2011 17:28 UTC (Fri) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link]

The issue isn't about what is a good starting point to leverage existing value in linux software distribution stacks already available.

The issue is planning, development and execution for your product lifecycle.

Just picking up an existing mature distribution release and forking components at need in your own little sandbox does not necessarily give you the end product you want, nor a sustainable long term path for your software development that suits your customer needs. Because while you were sitting there in your little bubble focusing on the needs of your embedded device for the 6-months, 1-year, 2-year it took you to get from prototype to production, the entire software stack that you initially leveraged as drastically changed and your modifications don't necessarily apply cleanly any more.

What now? Has your business model planned correctly for the cost of ongoing distribution maintenance needs like security patching beyond that initial development requirement needed to fork the mature distro?

Instead of of just basing your custom embedded work on a mature stack, how do you drive your custom work into the development of the mature stack to be a part of the ongoing maintenance of that stack and still move at the pace your business model requires?

That's the question that has really yet to be answered in the linux distribution world and that is exactly why we are seeing hardware oriented people trying to maintain weirdly constructed derivative forks of more mature distributions.

The general purpose community linux distribution model does not know how to interface with the business needs of hardware production lifecycles for device manufacturers and the device manufacturers are loath to have frank and open discussion about the problem as that discussion is tied up with business interest and what it would take to make something like Debian a better fit for their needs. It is a very difficult conversation to even start.

And to fill the gap what we are seeing are industry initiatives where peer "businesses" try to get together and align their needs and collaborate in new project structures that are perhaps vendor nuetral (for participating vendors). It's not clear how well this works in practic or what the best practices really are here. The Linux Foundation working groups are examples of this. So is Linaro, which by all accounts seems to functioning better with regard to moving ARM hardware enablement forward (primarily funded to a large extend by the ARM chip manufacturers themselves in a consortium basis I believe.)

-jef

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 8, 2011 17:30 UTC (Sat) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

Those are all good points. Unfortunately "weirdly constructed forks" are still the norm in the embedded world. At least Tizen has an upstream that is presumably willing to take patches relevant to embedded products. But on the other hand, so does OpenEmbedded. I wonder why they didn't use that as a starting point?

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 12, 2011 14:23 UTC (Wed) by davidarusling (subscriber, #80637) [Link]

Yes, Linaro is funded mostly by ARM SoC providers. It's also arranged along very different lines and goals to MeeGo / Maemo / Tizen etc. Primarily, it works upstream to enable many ARM SoCs to be used by many Linux distributions. A key difference is that members donate engineering effort that is directed by Linaro on the problems chosen by its members. This aggregates effort across key problems that benefit all. That's why we got involved with the upstreaming issues and that's what led us to strongly support the arm-soc maintainer's tree and subsequent consolidation efforts.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 7, 2011 17:03 UTC (Fri) by kiko (subscriber, #69905) [Link]

While I might color the Canonical-Intel relationship a bit differently, generally, you're right that a collaboration of this magnitude between completely different companies is very risky. Unless something very special is invented to make the planning and integration of the work smooth, in my mind, a project like this will naturally fail.

"Something very special" might include a unique way of setting goals and measuring results, or maybe setting up a joint office and relocating everybody, or coming up with a new, groundbreaking continuous integration system, or hiring the most stellar open source team in existence and giving them good leadership. Probably all of the above and more.

It just seems that the decision-makers at the companies involved didn't really want to try something different.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 12, 2011 5:29 UTC (Wed) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

Companies can and do collaborate all the time on projects like this. For example, nearly every embedded device that gets sold in the US is the product of a collaboration between the original vendor (OEM), a bunch of component vendors, at least one manufacturer, and at least one retailer.

It sounds to me like what happened here was just scope creep and its close cousins, wheel reinvention and empire building. This is similar to the One Laptop per Child project, where all they had to really do was do board bring-up on an ARM, and then spend some time polishing it to give a good user experience. But that wasn't sexy enough, so they decided it would be more fun to rewrite the whole stack, including the entire window manager, all of the applications, and large parts of the system daemons. Of course, with all this wheel reinvention going on, there was no time to polish anything, and the system shipped with a lot of known bugs and limitations. Later some hobbyists unlocked the hardware and put Ubuntu on it one weekend, resulting in a laptop that was much, much more functional.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 12, 2011 17:18 UTC (Wed) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link]

Much, much more fuctional for whom?

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 12, 2011 23:44 UTC (Wed) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

in this case, almost everyone. the one exception possibly being major deployments who were extensively customizing the OS anyway.

the software shipped with the OLPC was so limited and buggy that it didn't work very well for anyone, including children.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 13, 2011 22:12 UTC (Thu) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

I think a lot of the stuff that OLPC did would have worked well as research projects in an academic setting. The mesh networking stuff, for example, or a lot of the concepts that got included in the Sugar user interface. The problem is that they didn't treat these projects as research projects; they treated them as routine tasks, and then were surprised when some of them didn't pan out or took longer than expected-- as research often does. Eventually they started shipping Windows XP, as if open source were somehow the problem, rather than their crazy-go-nuts approach to product design.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 13, 2011 23:25 UTC (Thu) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

OLPC has never shipped windows on a laptop.

they allowed Microsoft to pay them to make windows able to run on the laptop (and the same work helped make it easier to run a standard linux distro on the laptop), but that is not nearly the same thing.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 15, 2011 20:02 UTC (Sat) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]

Searching for "dual boot olpc" brings up a blizzard of articles from 2008 and 2009 suggesting that OLPC is going to be shipping a dual-boot Windows / Linux laptop Real Soon Now. However, if you say that it never actually shipped, then I'll take your word for it. I know a lot of plans changed over the course of the project.

I just think it's sad that OLPC didn't really take advantage of one of the main strengths of open source software-- the ability to build off of an existing codebase. Also, some of the comments Negroponte made about "open source fundamentalism" rubbed me the wrong way.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 15, 2011 21:29 UTC (Sat) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

there were a lot of articles that claimed that OLPC would be shipping windows, but if you look at the stuff that OLPC actually said, they just said they were adding support for it. it is the various article authors who made the jump into assuming that they would ship windows.

I am also very disappointed with what OLPC did in terms of 'not invented here' and their choice of software to ship, but there's enough misinformation floating around about them having switched to windows that I make it a point to correct that when I see it posted in new comments

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 16, 2011 7:54 UTC (Sun) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

They did for the most part build on an existing code base – Linux. The new UI on top was one of the more interesting research aspects of the project. The OLPC project tried to produce a system that would be useful to school kids, who would likely have been as unhappy with the then-current incarnations of GNOME or KDE as they would have been with Windows.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 5, 2011 20:45 UTC (Wed) by Velmont (guest, #46433) [Link]

Just bought a Nokia N9! Sweet device.

Anyway, having Rasterman in there at least gets bonuspoints for doing quick, beautiful things. Although it's not a good sign with regards to actually getting stuff finished and released (ref. E17...).

I'm amazed at how smooth, nice and fast N9 is, QML and Qt is really well designed.

I don't really use many Qt programs on my computer, mostly because they feel out of place (too glossy theme et al, GTK is smoother) and often have a busy GUI because they're often written for KDE and not Gnome.

Anyway, they should have a good integrated web driver that uses the normal web, but installing by caching all. We don't want to have an unnecessary split there.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 5, 2011 21:52 UTC (Wed) by augustl (subscriber, #75060) [Link]

I also just got an N9. It's incredibly smooth and snappy. Feels snappier than my old iPhone 4. It baffles me that the N9 platform, which is essentially Maemo 6, isn't being more widely adopted. Here we have a Linux based mobile OS that is capable of powering user interfaces as good and snappy as those of iOS, something even Android isn't capable of imho.

I'm doing some research on what exactly the N9 does to achieve these great results. Afaik it's not Qt, since Qt is only a cross platform wrapper and doesn't have any GUI rendering on its own. But I don't (yet) know what I'm talking about.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 6, 2011 6:41 UTC (Thu) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

"Qt is only a cross platform wrapper and doesn't have any GUI rendering on its own."

That's completely wrong.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 6, 2011 7:24 UTC (Thu) by alison (✭ supporter ✭, #63752) [Link]

>It baffles me that the N9 platform, which is essentially Maemo 6, isn't >being more widely adopted.

The impressive UI of the Harmattan platform that runs on the N9 is not open source.

Harmattan UI is mostly open source

Posted Oct 6, 2011 7:49 UTC (Thu) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]

Actually that's often mistankenly thought, and I did that too. The Qt Components are open source, and the MeeGo Touch Framework (https://meego.gitorious.org/meegotouch) that is used in Harmattan on N9 is open source. The modified mcompositor and swipe gesture are proprietary, as are the graphics.

Meego touch framework is only in maintenance mode now and kind of deprecated (although that was from MeeGo side that now no longer exists), but elsewhere the Wayland compositors that can be based on Qt Compositor framework can manage similar level of performance as the custom mcompositor, and Qt Components (https://qt.gitorious.org/qt-components) is continued to be developed.

It's more about missing media coverage that makes it easy to assume N9's UI has hidden proprietary magic. One can also study their X.org and Qt sources among else to see if there are some optimizations.

They just finally had mature technology (Linux + Qt) and resources and learnings to pull off a smartphone like Nokia N9. Hopefully some other vendors see the potential here, and not to forget the rumored Nokia's Qt for next billion either.

Harmattan UI is mostly open source

Posted Oct 6, 2011 8:03 UTC (Thu) by alison (✭ supporter ✭, #63752) [Link]

>not to forget the rumored Nokia's Qt for next billion either.

I have yet to hear even the slightest hint that Meltemi, the project to which you refer, will be open-sourced.

> Wayland compositors that can be based on Qt Compositor framework can manage similar level of performance as the custom mcompositor, and Qt Components (https://qt.gitorious.org/qt-components) is continued to be developed.

True, qt-lighthouse and qml-scenegraph look great, but having great components is different from having a great UI like Harmattan. Harmattan isn't really even running on MeeGo, but on Maemo 6. That's why it uses the deprecated Touch Framework.

The situation is such a mess and the public code remains incomplete, so I think that no one will touch it.

Harmattan UI is mostly open source

Posted Oct 6, 2011 11:28 UTC (Thu) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]

"will be open-sourced."

Yes that was a separate mention from the Harmattan UI's open sourceness. I'm semi-happy to see also proprietary UX:s made on top of great FLOSS stack like Linux + freedesktop.org + Qt, because they prove a few things on their own part. That said, I don't care about Nokia's possible future plans in that sense that much since I'd also guess that if there's something coming, it'll be less open than Harmattan. But still, it'd be great to see fancy Qt based phones.

"Harmattan isn't really even running on MeeGo, but on Maemo 6."

That's mostly irrelevant, since the free components can anyway incorporated in any (completely) free distribution. And that's why I was speaking about Harmattan, not MeeGo.

"The situation is such a mess and the public code remains incomplete, so I think that no one will touch it"

The lesson with MeeGo should be not to wait for some company magically doing everything right, sticking with one strategy and offering everything on a silver plate. They never do it, business plans and political plans change all the time.

Many pieces of the Harmattan UI are already in use in the MeeGo (Mer) CE UI, which is the nearest to product quality free mobile UI out there at the moment. And it's MeeGo, not Maemo 6, if it matters something. Still more a great base than a complete suite, it's up to us all if we're interested in continuing that great work. So, the code has already been touched.

I have not completely understood the complaints about something being not completely free. If there is something free offered, and it's the best free thing that there is currently, why not work on that instead of just complaining that companies don't do what you want? I do understand advocation, but enough is enough.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 6, 2011 0:13 UTC (Thu) by ras (subscriber, #33059) [Link]

Who will be the Debbie and Ian for the smartphone platform? Lets hope they make their presence known soon.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 6, 2011 7:55 UTC (Thu) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]

Debian is already there, and I've been running it on my smartphone as primary OS for years ;) It's just about where to pour one's interest in so far as to productize things for not only individuals themselves but more to ordinary end-users, in addition to hw availability issues. I've only scratched the surface of that with my instructions and (poor and minimal) preinstalled image. One can argue Debian hasn't done that for ordinary desktop users either, but it was Ubuntu that did it.

So, Debian for smartphones already exists and welcomes people, but it's the more narrowly specified and more productized Ubuntu for smartphones that's missing. Mer + MeeGo CE + Plasma Active? Tizen?

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 6, 2011 12:16 UTC (Thu) by mordae (subscriber, #54701) [Link]

Can you share details, please?

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 6, 2011 18:41 UTC (Thu) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link]

Well I think I've repeated myself too much recently, since there are so many news that touch the topic. But see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:TimoJyrinki for a few screenshots of my Debian setup. There are several other people with different setups. The key thing is that it's possible.

With FSO2 now in Debian, there are modem drivers and eg. audio setup support for several other smartphones like Palm Pre, Nokia N900, some HTC:s etc. oFono is in Debian as well, but I haven't checked that out and it's only the modem part.

There is near zero productization. At least with FreeRunner you have a packaged kernel in pkg-fso team's repository, but for others you need your vmlinuz + modules from somewhere, in addition to Debian ARM rootfs. And you need to setup the UI like SHR software manually. But it's just about missing for example install.sh similar to what FreeRunner has, or proper Debian kernel and debian-installer support, or offering pre-configured rootfs:s. And doing more of the needed packaging work.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 7, 2011 15:03 UTC (Fri) by mordae (subscriber, #54701) [Link]

Thanks a lot, I'll look into that.

The Qt framework and Nokia

Posted Oct 6, 2011 13:52 UTC (Thu) by alecs1 (guest, #46699) [Link]

"Andrew Savory posted a detailed examination of the history of MeeGo and of Samsung's past Linux efforts. He argues that MeeGo's primary answer to the question "Why write applications for MeeGo?" was the popular and established cross-platform Qt framework. Absent a commitment to the project from Nokia, Intel looked for a substitute framework, and decided that HTML5 with JavaScript was the only framework with an established history and viable developer pool."

My first idea is that Intel (or the consortium behind Tizen) could just "buy" Qt. I think this idea has been put on the table in a way or another in other LWN comments or blogs.

I don't think it's like they have to pay billions, because Nokia has been fooling around after buying Qt without showing any direction of what they want to do with it, they might just sell it (Qt is opened to the community anyway, but I guess that's not what Samsung wants to hear). After this entire MeeGo cluster****, one more expense for the sake of continuity should very well make sense.

MeeGo becomes Tizen - maybe

Posted Oct 7, 2011 14:44 UTC (Fri) by Baylink (subscriber, #755) [Link]

Um, we're gonna need to know how to pronounce that name; it has no standard orthographic pronounciation (at least in English):

Tee-z'n?
Tih-z'n?
Tye-z'n?

Zen?

Stress on which syl-lable?

Can we please let it die already?

Posted Oct 16, 2011 14:56 UTC (Sun) by m.galabant (guest, #73106) [Link]

Intel can do hardware, but all of their software is a mess (with exception of the compilers), both in packaging (think mass deployments), usage (minimal invasive - not realy) and management (totally different approaches from version to version).

MeeGo wasn't a good name to start with either. Then they miserable failed to just provide an usabe environment and cross-compiling environment. EVERYTHING needed to be done by hand and adjusted again and again.

Can we please let it die already?

Posted Oct 24, 2011 14:21 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

And Intels' compiler software and development team came from Digital, didn't they?

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