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The year of the Linux tablet?

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 24, 2011 0:45 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97)
Parent article: The year of the Linux tablet?

I think the KDE view point may be the better for this space. The mobile-tablet space is going to become the mobile-tablet-washing machine space and having a widget set which allows producers to customize for their washing machine or refrigerator or car navigation system is going to be the bigger draw for companies not wanting to be in the standard market duopoly.

One thing I would like to point out is that HTML/HTTP has replaced A lot. We need to be very careful about the "where is my flying car?" viewpoint we technologists get caught up in. So the Web didn't replace everything people said it was going to in 1995. It has become the bottom structure for so many other things that it is hard not to see where some new service is really just an HTTP server morphed a bit, and its data being sent is just HTML without some of the eye candy.


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The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 24, 2011 1:55 UTC (Wed) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]

yes, the Gnome future sounds too much like what Apple is trying to do, namely control everything and not allow for any variation.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 24, 2011 9:58 UTC (Wed) by nzjrs (subscriber, #35911) [Link]

By some definitions the Apple approach seems to work out quite well.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 24, 2011 11:39 UTC (Wed) by robbe (guest, #16131) [Link]

So it does. But if you want Apple, you know where to find it.

I do not get the point of releasing free software that you don't want people to change -- maybe "shared source" a la MS would be a more appropriate license.

That said maybe a better option for GNOME would be to produce a "reference platform" as their complete offering, and ask would-be reviewers to test that. If it is really that great in integration, it will stand on its own.

Reminds me a bit of the spats mplayer upstream had with Debian packaging its software non-optimally. For an extreme case of control-freakery and look at Schily's cdrecord.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 24, 2011 20:32 UTC (Wed) by nzjrs (subscriber, #35911) [Link]

Be careful conflating "cant change" (apple) and "shouldn't change" (GNOME, not that I agree that is the gnome position, if there is one, BTW)

The former is anti FOSS, the latter seems like good engineering based on limiting the scope of work to maximize the experience based on limited development resources.

Some people (not you actually, your reply was reasonable) have an undeserved sense of entitlement in FOSS, it is not enough that you get the GNOME code and have the freedom to break it to your will, those people require everyone else to do the work and bend it to their will. Not liking the GNOME direction or plans does not make them OMG APPLE EVIL.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 25, 2011 7:40 UTC (Thu) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link]

I do not get the point of releasing free software that you don't want people to change -- maybe "shared source" a la MS would be a more appropriate license.

if we didn't really want people to change, contribute, extend and improve our work then I'm pretty sure we'd have chosen another license. or went completely over and used BSD/MIT/X11 instead of LGPLv2.1+.

we want to define what's GNOME more carefully and precisely, so that developers will be able to target that platform without having to care about conflicts within our own software caused by the combinatorial explosion of moving parts. we want to be able to say to a user that any awesome application targeting that platform is going to be as tightly integrated with it as any application we write. we want to be able to have a fully structured approach, from the kernel up to the SDK, so that users won't have to mess around with their distributions.

if that's perceived as "being like Apple" then I'd be proud, as it would mean that we're doing, in the open, something that a multi-billion dollar company does in secret; and, unlike with Apple, if people don't like it they can take full advantage of our license, and go do their own awesome thing without any fear of patents or copyright infringment.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 25, 2011 14:44 UTC (Thu) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

The issue is that a lot of people want to break stuff with various choices. And the removal of that ability is where the frustration comes from.

To use the analogy of cars.

A 1960's VW bug was the epitomy of the vehicle you could take apart and put together in many ways. Most of those ways would be horrible to look at but it was fun to do so. You learned a LOT from being able to break a car and make it do stuff that wasn't what it was originally designed to do, and you could always mill pieces to rebuild it (which is why there are still so many 1960's VW's on the road, because the parts are easily replaceable).

A 2011 VW bug is the opposite end. It is a very pretty car, and I will say it is fun to drive where it was designed to drive with. It looks a lot like the original, and talks the same talk about being a free love sort of system. But deep inside it is not anything like that. Because it is designed to work and look in a certain way it is very very unfriendly to be changed to look like anything else. It is a pain to mod, and just not fun for that type of person.

The basic message is "You have taken the fun out of modding my system."

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 26, 2011 6:38 UTC (Fri) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link]

The basic message is "You have taken the fun out of modding my system."

that's why we didn't base the whole desktop shell on a high level language, and we didn't include the way to inject custom extensions, extensions that would not be able to access the whole of the Gnome API through introspection.

oh, wait...

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 26, 2011 15:06 UTC (Fri) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

You (GNOME) might have done so, but the messaging is lost. What messaging, I constantly run into is "Making changes to how GNOME is set up by default is a detriment to the GNOME experience and should not be done."

Look at how you messaged your reply to me and realize that tone of snide, sarcastic superiority is how unwelcoming Gnome has become.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 26, 2011 15:15 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

I think we have been picky about responses we choose to consider (invariably negative ones apparently) and discard the really interesting and deeper choices.

It has been obvious from the start the GNOME Shell was designed to be extensible (a whole lot of extensions really, have you done a yum -C search gnome-shell-extension in Fedora 15 lately?) and the recent discussions around setting up a website to make this process easier with no restrictions beyond robustness and security should have been enough messaging but unfortunately lost in the noise. I think, GNOME developers should have been vocal to compensate and they have failed to do so as well. I hope they do better marketing (beyond just gnome3.org).

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 26, 2011 16:02 UTC (Fri) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

No I haven't done that search, and thank you for pointing it out. I realize that a lot of my own negativity towards starts in the beginning of the day with a

"Gnome 3 Failed to Load... This most likely means your system .. is not capable of delivering the full GNOME 3 experience."

which translate to me as "You aren't rich/good/etc enough to use this."

Which I realize is my own problem due to my self-identifying with the hardware too much. I do see that F16 doesn't remind me of this every day which is a nice change. And I see there are 37 extensions I wasn't aware of before.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 26, 2011 15:46 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

It should not be done, but it's designed to be easy for you to do so if you choose to.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 29, 2011 21:03 UTC (Mon) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link]

You (GNOME) might have done so, but the messaging is lost. What messaging, I constantly run into is "Making changes to how GNOME is set up by default is a detriment to the GNOME experience and should not be done."

yes, it should not be done. in the same way that modding a car most of the time removes the road-worthiness of the same, and you should be aware of that. should you decide to continue, there are ways in which this not only is possible, but it's also easy to do. you pay the price of stuff potentially breaking, so there's that.

Look at how you messaged your reply to me and realize that tone of snide, sarcastic superiority is how unwelcoming Gnome has become.

wow, sarcasm: now a novelty on LWN and in an open source project. something that never happened before, and it's now unwelcoming.

oh, sorry: I again used sarcasm - targeted at somebody that never really bothered (to his own admission) to check before writing off something that I worked on.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 30, 2011 15:22 UTC (Tue) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

You are over-reaching on the "never bothered to check". Never bothered would not mean I haven't tried using GNOME3 at all. I changed over my desktop and used it for 3 weeks on Fedora-15 and am using it again for Fedora-16. I have asked around for help and gotten the "Making changes to the desktop, screensaver, etc is not to be done." answers.

My issues were solved by Rahul. The systems I have run in fallback mode so I am not using mutter or seem to have any access to it. Such is life.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Aug 25, 2011 14:05 UTC (Thu) by tshow (subscriber, #6411) [Link]

The Apple approach is certainly working well for Apple, but as a user you can certainly see the limits of the approach.

In particular, the Apple approach is driven by a singular vision per overall product. In iOS, the singular vision is the single app appliance (not that it only has a single app, but you're not really expected to try to use multiple apps simultaneously, and certainly not expected to try to make them interact). In OSX, the singular vision is a MacBook Pro with no peripherals, running a big software package (photoshop, spreadsheet...) full-screen and occasionally switching to full-screen Safari or Mail.

The further you get from the singular vision, the worse it works.

Let's say, for instance, you have a shiny new Mac Pro (one of the $2500+ towers) running Lion, and you've hooked it up to two new 27" screens (which it will do quite nicely). And let's say you want to use that spiffy new "full-screen mode" their programs have. You get full-screen on the "main" display, and the other one goes blank gray. You can't do anything with the second monitor.

The use case that Lion was designed for is the guy sitting in Starbucks with his MacBook Pro. It's designed around a single screen, with other screens being an afterthought. It's designed around the trackpad, with the mouse being an afterthought. It was designed around a relatively small number of installed apps, all of which are expected to run fullscreen (which, I presume, is why their window management is so primitive. No edge resistance in 2011? Really?). The non-vision parts still work, for the most part, but they're not as clean. The further you are from the use-case vision, the more you're on your own.

iOS has similar problems; it's better than it used to be, but real multitasking is still off the table, the launcher shell is a pretty version of progman.exe from windows 3.1 (now with folders! Oops, but don't try to nest them. Oh, and don't try to put more than 16 things in them (or 9, if you aren't on an ipad), because they don't scroll...). Notification is still weak, the filesystem is still inaccessible, you need a dongle to use a memory card...

This is a result of Apple focusing on their use case and building the device they think people want. And really, it does seem to be what a lot of people want, or think they want.

The problem with the Apple model, and by extension the Gnome3 model (since Gnome3 seems to be following Apple quite strongly down this rabbit hole) is that it only serves the specific target audience. What it utterly fails to do, what it's flatly terrible at, is allowing the user to grow and learn.

In recent years the design community has had an absolute hatred of configurability, extensibility and utility. The "ideal" design is one in which there is only one way to do anything, and the novice user can do it preferably with the mouse alone. The plan was that we could give everyone this computer, and anyone could use it.

The trouble with this plan is that it provides no growth path for the user; they can never be anything but a novice because the system doesn't let them take the training wheels off. It also means it's much more difficult to adapt the system to unanticipated needs.

The platonic ideal of this design style is Microsoft Bob, and the things that descended from it (Clippy, "wizards"...). Your whole computing experience is on rails, assistants do everything for you, and you can't do anything your assistants don't know how (or don't want) to do.

The Gnome project has been particularly bad about this over the years; one need look no further than Metacity to see that the current "you will use your computer the way we tell you" attitude is endemic, not some new development. As I recall, the current kerfuffle about lack of options in Gnome3 is a replay of Gnome2; when Gnome2 was new, there was a similar storm of complaints from users about options gone missing, and similar condescending "you simply don't understand my genius" replies from the design team.

The "we must maintain our branding" excuse is new, but it's merely another justification for the "thou shall not question the holy designers" attitude.

I remain unconvinced that the path Free Software should take is the same path Apple and Microsoft took. Ease of use and ease of learning for beginners is definitely important. Some damage control systems are important as well; preventing novices from burning the house down is clearly desirable.

But where all current "mainstream" desktop systems fall down (and I'm including Gnome and KDE here) is decent support for the steps past novice, the road to mastery.

Consider emacs. When you start using emacs, you can treat it as a simple text editor; open and save files with the menu, only open one file at a time, it supports drag and drop, cut and paste from the menu, and so forth. You can give emacs to a novice and expect them to survive in it, though they may occasionally trip over an advanced feature and get confused.

But emacs grows with you. In my experience, about once a month I learn a new trick in emacs that within six months I can't live without. There's a depth, a richness, access to new ways of doing things. Improved ways of doing things. Ways of doing things automatically in an instant that would have taken hours or weeks to do by hand.

We ought to be able to have that in our desktop environments.

There are hints of where to go to make this happen. The example of emacs is particularly instructive; having a completely scriptable system packed with hooks produces a very powerful environment for user mastery.

In window managers, elements of Enlightenment and the SawFish window manager showed some of what could be done.

A particularly important example of the sort of thing we should be doing is (now mostly defunct) Quicksilver for OSX. As much as possible should be made available through dbus, and you should be able to access those services directly through a command interface. I ought, for instance, to be able to bring up a shell and use a simple command to tell firefox to send the image on tab 2 to a new layer in the image I'm editing in gimp.

Perhaps these desktop environments should have a novice mode with training wheels and padded walls, but if we're going to offer a compelling reason to switch to our platforms, the novice mode must have an off switch. The real strength of the free software community is in our experienced users, our willingness to experiment, and our software's ability to grow with experience and need. As per the (attribution and exact wording forgotten...) quote, "Unix doesn't prevent you from doing something stupid because that would also prevent you from doing something clever."

A remarkable summary

Posted Aug 28, 2011 10:15 UTC (Sun) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

Even my prosumer Olympus Pen E-P1 has an advanced mode that exposes several new settings. Free software should always keep advanced users in mind and help novices make the transition.

Too often only a predefined set of use cases is considered, without a unifying model which lets other functionalities grow on the same substrate. It is crucial to encourage these advanced use cases, probably coded by the advanced users themselves. This kind of enthusiast extensibility is one of the real strengths of Free software.

The year of the Linux tablet?

Posted Sep 1, 2011 16:13 UTC (Thu) by mvaar (guest, #75742) [Link]

In this very article, it appears to me that the gnome fanboy himself doesn't like apple's approach because of that. Of course, its OK when WE ( as in gnome fanboys) do it, right ?

Please.

Posted Sep 1, 2011 16:16 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

If you disagree with what the speaker was saying, by all means express that disagreement. But can we please do it in a respectful way that avoids name calling?

Thank you.

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