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Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

News.com has some info on IBM's countersuit. "IBM said that four SCO software packages violate four of IBM's patents. The patents cover a data compression technique, a method of navigating among program menus using options arranged in a graphical tree, a method for verifying that an electronic message was received and a method for monitoring computing systems linked in a cluster." Most people will certainly welcome a counterstrike from IBM, but the deployment of software patents to shut somebody down is always a bit of a cause for concern.
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Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 17:34 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

Great news.

I have a meeting with the advisor to four MEPs next week to discuss the EU software patents directive. This legal situation could be a useful example of how patents are actually used by the industry.

Ciaran O'Riordan

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 18:06 UTC (Thu) by dwalters (subscriber, #4207) [Link]

Good idea. This is a classic example of a big company which has the resources to accumulate a huge software patent portfolio, trying to get its way against much smaller competitors by leveraging its software patents.

Even though most FLOSS advocates will be on IBM's side in this particular case, the fact remains that this is a classic example of how software patents create a massively unfair advantage for big multinational corporations.

Copyrights are a fair and appropriate way to protect written work, books, articles, diagrams, aesthetic designs and software too: There's no need for patents to protect any of these forms of work ... Can you imagine it? ... "Once upon a time"; oops, can't write that, it's patented by XYZ Global Publishing Corp.

Good luck in your meeting with the MEPs next week. This issue is SO important. If the directive to legitimize EU patents is successful, look for some nasty moves from Microsoft to follow against free and open source software that might make SCOs action look tame in comparison (many pundits have predicted this).

coriordan, I'm sure you have all your ducks in line for this important meeting next week, but another really good exhibit against software patents is the Internet; it couldn't have become the level playing field it is today, where no company owns it and all people and companies, big and small are equal, if patents had interfered in the softare standards process. It's still a delicate balance: just think how different the WWW would be if Microsoft had decided to enforce their CSS patents, for example.

Software patents in the real world are all about control by big corporations, and nothing to do with protecting innovation.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted Aug 7, 2003 18:09 UTC (Thu) by philips (guest, #937) [Link]

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Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 18:16 UTC (Thu) by steven (guest, #13639) [Link]

Hmm something about this suit strike me as odd: IBM doesn't denounce the contract infringement claim, in other works, SCO may have a case. Instead, IBM tries to sue SCO over some patent infringements, but when you develop software you're probably always violating a bunch of IBM patents -- they have so many.

This has "settlement" written all over it.

That could be painful for other companies involved with Linux, because if IBM settles but does not deny that they _have_ violated SCO copyrights (and prove this) then SCO can go out and sue other companies for copyright infringements.

And those other companies may not have patents to defend themselves with...

*sigh* Patents, proprierty software, IP... They're going to fight one bad thing with another. The world would have been _so_ much easier if software had never left the labs of academia (long live the MIT license :)

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 18:25 UTC (Thu) by heunique (guest, #728) [Link]

They already denied any wrongdoing previously (see LWN archive)..

Now they're counter-suing SCO's ass, and they're going with a new approach which is
much more in favour to IBM - Patents, and they have TONS of them...

SCO will see that violating IBM Patents can cost quite a lot these days...

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 18:25 UTC (Thu) by dwalters (subscriber, #4207) [Link]

Remember, SCO's complaint against IBM has nothing to do with copyrights, only breach of contract. A settlement between the two WOULD NOT in any way mean that IBM have misappropriated SCO's copyrights. IBM wrote JFS, NUMA, etc. (so IBM have the copyrights to that work), and SCO are claiming that they are in breach of agreement for putting that technology into Linux. Whatever the outcome of SCO vs IBM, IBM still have the copyrights to that work, and they HAVE released it under GPL.

From what I understand, SCO's more recent actions with respect to Linux IP licensing is independent of their dispute with IBM, and DOES have everything to do with copyrights, but these are UNIX System V copyrights, not IBM's copyrights for enterprise technologies (NUMA, RCU, etc.).

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 19:35 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

The counterclaim does indeed deny the breach of contract claims. It's mostly in the form of:

61. Denies the averments of paragraph 61.

62. States that it is without information sufficient to form a blief as to the truth of the averments of paragraph 62.

63. Denies the averments of paragraph 63.

...and so on for about 16 pages. Vital stuff as far as the case goes, but hard to report on in any sort of interesting way. The real point is that they deny just about everything.

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 23:14 UTC (Thu) by scroteman (guest, #13806) [Link]

Yeah, I would not be certain that IBM arn't just waiting for share prices of SCO to drop a bit and then buy them. However, they're also quite possibly waiting for SCO to present its evidence shortly in their Red Hat case. After that, IBM may well play some more cards.

I wouldn't be so overwhelmed by IBM's actions personally: whilst I agree that they may well help out Linux today (um, well for the next 3 years that this battle is likely to carry on for), do not be certain that IBM will always be on our side - to me it feels a little like getting into bed with a sedated rhinocerous which goes on the rampage if anyone walks into its territory.

Personally I'd just abolish patents but then again I'm a little mad...

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 18:25 UTC (Thu) by philips (guest, #937) [Link]

Okay. Emotions off.

Actually this is the situation everyone was expecting from the beginning: IBM needs only to play little bit with its "muscles". And SCO will be turned to dust. Fly against airplain. Slon i Mos'ka. Kartina Repina. basnia Krylova.

IBM is enforcing its patents: I'm personally against software patents - but I like to hope that IBM had learned lessons from 3 anti-monopoly suits it had lost in past. IBM need to play carefully - if it will over-play with the power it has - this could be the cause for another anti-monopoly case.

Probably this is going to be example: patents should be allowed - but laws should regulate ability of the patent holder to inforce his patents.
This regulations should make some parity in the world where you have competition between commercial for-profit organizations and non-for-profit community-like organizations a-la Debian, Linux, *BSD and so on. No-one can directly profit from the work of this organizations - but sure commercial companies are going to have hard time competing (in fact!) with their own customers (who really are the participants of given community).

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 18:36 UTC (Thu) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]

OoooH, this IBM is really a party buster...
Now that we were all having so much fun with the SCO DIVERSION, there comes IBM and spoils it,...
SO, no more fun !,.... perhaps now we can all go and get serious about resolve Linux problems, and fight the guy who was holding SCO leach.

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 20:08 UTC (Thu) by ccchips (guest, #3222) [Link]

I agree. Let's start by building up a better set of music-composition tools.

Me, I'm starting with something simple--work on XMMS plugins so that when I'm converting a whole lot of tracker mods to MP3's or OGG's*, I get the ID tags from the mod info; also, make the conversion (output) plugin understand how to not overwrite files with duplicate basenames.

Just a little thing.... :)

...didn't want to say that other 3-letter extension....oh...interesting that the first potshot at SCO came from the same country where the dreaded encoder patent was waved around at us.... ;)

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 18:39 UTC (Thu) by ccchips (guest, #3222) [Link]

I'm troubled that SCO might get someone to invalidate all 4 of those patents.

However, I will guess that it won't be the OSS community helping out, as it was with the BT patent.

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 18:41 UTC (Thu) by ccchips (guest, #3222) [Link]

But then again, if SCO realizes how much help OSS / Free-software community research could be here, they might become very friendly all of a sudden....

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 20:55 UTC (Thu) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]

Sorry, but i dont belive that IBM priority was and is to defend OSS,... it was and is to defend itself first.

Lets see: it depend on the hardware choice, and i cant link you to sources, but by $699/CPU a small organisation say with ,1 CPU firewall gateway server , 2 CPU server for files and printers and 13 1 CPU Desktops, would spend "less" by buing all,-" MEAN ALL SERVERS AND DESKTPOS "-, brand new hardware with Windows installed and with premium support. At least those are the numbers for my country Portugal.

If you consider "big Iron" servers, than the SCO licence would just cut the price benefice of LINUX, and IBM, HP , SUN would have no change against an hardware UPGRADE with Windows.

SCO didint want really to collect money... what is clear they had in mind was to force the next wave of upgrades with windows in beneficial of his master M$.

That would stall all the momentum IBM has now, so IBM is first of wall defending itself from a generalized fear histeria that could harm them.

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 18:46 UTC (Thu) by sphealey (guest, #1028) [Link]

I'm troubled that SCO might get someone to invalidate all 4 of those patents.
IBM has 40 or 50,000 patents in its library. Some it uses for license revenue, some it uses to block competitors from taking certain directions, but most it keeps in reserve in case some other entity is foolish enough to start an "intellictual property war" with it. Luckily no one has ever been so fool.....

sPh

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 20:23 UTC (Thu) by daniel (subscriber, #3181) [Link]

<i>I'm troubled that SCO might get someone to invalidate all 4 of those patents.</i>

In a perfect world, SCO would spend vast sums of legal money to win a Pyrrhic victory against the patent infringement, while getting squashed on every other claim. Looking forward to seeing the roach juice ooze out from between some gorilla toes...

Favorite Part: Novell

Posted Aug 7, 2003 19:08 UTC (Thu) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]

IBM's suit revealed that Novell on June 12 effectively forbade SCO from terminating IBM's AIX license. SCO said it revoked the AIX license on June 16. Novell maintained the right to issue such instructions to SCO under the terms of the Unix sale, the suit said.

Go Novell!

And Novell has announced this week that they're migrating to Linux themselves, so they have an interest is bringing down SCO.

But aren't Novell and SCO still both under the Canopy Group? Is Canopy pulling strings on both sides so it wins either way?

Favorite Part: Novell

Posted Aug 8, 2003 23:59 UTC (Fri) by adamruth (guest, #12380) [Link]

>> But aren't Novell and SCO still both under the Canopy Group?

No, the Canopy group was started by Ray Noorda, who was once CEO of Novell. Novell isn't owned by a parent company, though, I would imagine the the Canopy Group does own some Novell shares.

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 19:23 UTC (Thu) by Bryam (guest, #13331) [Link]

Yes, SCO need a punishment for their extortion. But is ironically to use patent rights for ensure it to the Linux community.

Today IBM use it for fight versus a Linux enemy, but what could be happen in the future.

IBM and others patents holders, members of the Linux movement, promote and sign one "Open Source Protection Act" where contain explicit compromise to not use patents against Open Source developers, users o projects.

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 20:49 UTC (Thu) by busterb (subscriber, #560) [Link]

Of course, it is hard to define 'Open Source Developer'. SCO (Caltera) did hava a hand in some open-source software, after all (patches, utilities, etc.) There is risk that someone could maintain a token open-source project, and use it as defense against patent claims.

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 21:20 UTC (Thu) by ccchips (guest, #3222) [Link]

Yes, and I hope IBM keeps this in mind as it proceeds.

I'm trying to figure out how SCO would be violating an IBM patent by open-sourcing something.

Is it possible for a patent-holder to stipulate that an open-source project gets an implicit free license as long as it's certifed by the OSI or FSF, or blablabla? I know Microsoft has tried to stipulate the opposite in some of their terms.

Standing of a "FLOSS safe zone for patents"? >> answer

Posted Aug 8, 2003 9:19 UTC (Fri) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link]

> Is it possible for a patent-holder to stipulate that an open-source project gets
> an implicit free license as long as it's certifed by the OSI or FSF, or blablabla?

Yes.. but the validity of such a specification doesn't yet have case history backing
it up, much as the GPL has no case history (at least court) backing IT up.

Basically, it comes down to this. Such self limiting language on targets of
enforcement doesn't generally go in the patent itself, where it would hold co-equal
status to the rest of the patent claim. Rather, a company simply says it chooses
not to enforce the patent when applied in X type cases. If it actually contributed
the code to a GPL project (as IBM did with various kernel code contributions)
itself, then the case is pretty much settled. However, if someone else simply
takes them at their word that they aren't going to enforce for X type development,
and writes code that infringes based on the patent holder's statements, well,
management and policy may change (look at what happened with
Caldera/SCO!), and there's no case history yet on whether the independent
developer of the code could count on the courts not decreeing that it's the
property of said patent holder, and within their rights to change their mind on it, or
not. Thus, that gets pretty dicey.

Red Hat has made news for filing its own patents, which it swears up and down it
intends to use only as a defense, should somebody decide to "SCO vs. IBM"
them, or for cross-licensing, and that the FLOSS world is free to use them without
fear. It's a very common practice in the proprietary world, and usually results in a
cross-licensing agreement where both sides have a license to use the other's IP.
It has proven a VERY effective defensive tactic, and should prove so in the
SCO/IBM case as well. RH claims it is just building its own defense, should
someone in the proprietary world decide to take them on. However, the reaction
of those in the know in the FLOSS community has been decidedly mixed,
because on the one hand they can't really blame RH for strengthening their
defense, which they acknowledge FLOSS DOES need to be doing, but OTOH,
there's always the chance RH could become another Caldera, or simply be
bought up by someone like MS, who could use the patents far differently..

As far as IBM, keep in mind their history. They were around back when hardware
was hundreds of thousands of $$ and the software package was basically thrown
in, and those with the $$ to spend on the hardware were pretty much free to do
what they wanted with the software, because after all it was useless without the
costly machines to run it on. It's not hard to believe that they wouldn't have
minded staying there, or that they wouldn't mind getting back to that. Thus, their
entire strategy with Linux is to make the software free again, so they can get
back to the game they are comfortable with --> selling the hardware, selling the
equally valuable if not now more so support services, and WHO CARES about
the software! Linux is just the most convenient means to that end, but as they
say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and IBM is currently proving a pretty
good friend indeed. IOW, IBM is agnostic on FLOSS, because it tends to be
agnostic on software in general. However, FLOSS in general and Linux in
particular happens to be the best way possible to get back to that environment
they've proven so good at operating in, from their viewpoint, and they've been
quite happy to put their $$ where their goal is, and support Linux to the tune of a
billion and counting! Yes, if they ever became the enemy, they'd be pretty
formitable, certainly more so than SCO, and probably more than MS, because MS
is mainly economic, while IBM would be IP rights. However, viewed from the
above angle, that isn't going to happen, because IBM would be far happier simply
doing what it did back when IT was the monopoly, supplying the hardware, and
"don't fuss the little stuff" (software).

Big Blue files counterclaims against SCO (News.com)

Posted Aug 7, 2003 22:46 UTC (Thu) by Bryam (guest, #13331) [Link]

In this case IBM is using patents against propietary products from SCO.

Oddly, practically no effect on scox stock price

Posted Aug 11, 2003 4:09 UTC (Mon) by walterbyrd (guest, #11620) [Link]

After scox stock price shot up 600% from $2 to $12 a share. This news brought the stock price down about $0.28.

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