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The Ada Initiative takes a different approachThe Ada Initiative takes a different approachPosted Feb 17, 2011 17:00 UTC (Thu) by zander76 (guest, #6889)Parent article: The Ada Initiative takes a different approach
I am sure the objective is good but the more I see stuff like this, the harder it is for me to swallow.
When you join an open source project do you need to answer questions like:
It's the internet and the same anonymity that protects gamers and allows them to be dick heads at times is the same one that makes everybody equal. Promoting ones sex, religion, color or foot size for that matter only separates people.
I am a white male and the internet is one of the few places left that I am not discriminated against. Seems funny that a white person would say that but this is 2011. I didn't take part in not letting women vote, slavery or stealing land from natives. So I want a "white male support group that gives me a job".
No wonder the amount of white hate groups are on the rise. I shouldn't have to feel guilty because I was born as a white male. I am no more special then anybody else :)
Ben
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The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 17, 2011 18:18 UTC (Thu) by tetromino (subscriber, #33846) [Link] > When you join an open source project do you need to answer questions like:> Are you male, female or transgender? In effect, yes. Many serious open source projects ask that contributors use their real-life names (some projects even require that account names be based on full, real-life names), and real-life names are usually gender-specific.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 17, 2011 21:55 UTC (Thu) by maco (guest, #53641) [Link]
KDE has the same requirement for its accounts.
In a similar vein: whether you are asked your gender identity or not, you can still be made to feel unwelcome for it. If some people just assume that *everyone* else is a dude and so feel free to be a bit boys-locker-room about things (sexist jokes, stereotyping, linking to pictures of women they find attractive wearing very little, etc), that can make some women very uncomfortable. Generally, discomfort leads to something changing to get rid of it. Leaving is a lot easier than fixing the discomfort-inducing behaviours.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 18, 2011 13:14 UTC (Fri) by jondkent (subscriber, #19595) [Link]
Agree with your point, but that doesn't appear to be what Ada is about. It would appear to be a hand holding initiative. Taking your point, Ada would appear not address them at all.
From looking at their web page it is very hard to see exactly what is it Ada is providing here. There is very little firm details on how they propose to implement the ideals.
If it was my money, I'd put it to use elsewhere.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 21, 2011 1:02 UTC (Mon) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]
> that can make some women very uncomfortable.
I know, because I've met them, that it can make many *men* uncomfortable, as well. No one's sticking up for them, yet they arguably have it worse.
But, no one's holding a gun to any developer's head saying "you must work on this specific project", last time I checked.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 21, 2011 8:33 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Yes, it can make men uncomfortable. The solution here is not to say 'bugger off, you lot, the people here who are making you uncomfortable have right of way, oh, and if they come into your *own* project and do the same there, you can sod off then too'. It's to *stop* these people doing things that make people feel uncomfortable. It's not as if locker-room talk is technically necessary or even mildly beneficial to the project, and it's not as if avoiding locker-room talk is going to freeze the social atmosphere into a hell of formality, either. It's just going to make it a more pleasant environment for everyone who isn't a boor.
Crudeness is never appropriate; it's a matter of the heart Posted Feb 27, 2011 8:33 UTC (Sun) by blujay (guest, #39961) [Link]
If behaviors are making women uncomfortable, those behaviors ought to make men uncomfortable as well. Such behaviors aren't appropriate for public venues, regardless of the sex of the audience.
So the issue, then, is not one of changing behaviors to accommodate women, but changing behaviors to eliminate crudeness, period.
Good luck.
Besides, anyone who is coerced to restrict his crude behavior for the sake of females will likely resent said females, thereby having the opposite effect than was intended. Fail.
The things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. So the real issue, then, is one of changing people's hearts. And there is only one true solution to that.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 17, 2011 21:58 UTC (Thu) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link] When you join an open source project do you need to answer questions like: Are you male, female or transgender? ... But what is your point? It sounds like you are arguing against a position that no one has taken: people won't let women work on open source projects. The only statements I see in this area are that women aren't working on open source projects. And that that's a bad thing.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 18, 2011 14:39 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] I can assure you that white men, particularly educated white men, are still the advantaged group in the UK, though less so than 40 years ago. We don't generally get suspected of obtaining our promotions at work in a supine position. We don't get asked at tech conferences whose husband / boyfriend / gigolo we are. We don't get catcalls from the workers on building sites. We don't have social pressure to have more variety of clothing than "enough to be able to wear clean clothes every day while only doing the laundry once a week". Nobody feels the need to make satirical references to being arrested on suspicion of being white in charge of a Mercedes Benz. As for hate groups, the bulk of the membership tends to consist of people (often of low socioeconomic status) persuaded by demagogues to see the Other - rather than themselves, the System, or the people who run the System - as the source of their problems.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 19, 2011 22:52 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] Nobody feels the need to make satirical references to being arrested on suspicion of being white in charge of a Mercedes Benz.Although being white and a banker is probably a thing best concealed at present.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 19, 2011 20:50 UTC (Sat) by geofft (subscriber, #59789) [Link]
Sure, you do need to answer questions about whether you're male or female -- if you want people to talk about your work at all, they're going to need a pronoun to refer to you.
You could attempt to get people to use the wrong one, but this will get you in trouble if anyone who does know whether you're male or female or whatnot ever refers to you. (And you will need to pick one, either way.)
I'm not white, but I am male and I am from a relatively privileged race, and I'm not entirely happy that things are easier for me than average because of these two things. I don't like it that people subconsciously probably assume a little more competence from me when my e-mail address or Signed-Off-By line reveals my name. I want my work to be accepted on its own merits.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 19, 2011 23:11 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Quite so. Also, I feel uneasy when my real name goes into anything for a terribly English reason: it feels too much like boasting.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 20, 2011 16:39 UTC (Sun) by Tet (subscriber, #5433) [Link]
You're a perfect example of why it doesn't matter. I spent years not knowing anything about you apart from the name "nix". But it really wasn't relevant. You could have been black, white, brown, yellow, male, female or something in between. I wouldn't have cared. You were clearly competent in the necessary areas, which was all that mattered.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 21, 2011 19:34 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Exactly. Real names don't matter: *consistent* names and no sock-puppeting matter (so that you can build up a reputation, for good or ill). The 'must use your real name' things are unenforceable anyway, because people can say their real name is anything they like: as PaXTeam (I think) has pointed out, it is almost certain that things have got into the kernel under pseudonyms simply because the chosen pseudonyms looked like real names. So this sort of policy discriminates against those who have honest reasons to want to use a pseudonym, while not deterring bad actors one bit.
(For that matter, people have -- repeatedly -- referred to me using the wrong gendered pronoun. Huge innate differences between men and women, my foot.)
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 21, 2011 13:28 UTC (Mon) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link]
> I am a white male
<irony>No kidding? I could never have guessed.</irony>
> the internet is one of the few places left that I am not discriminated against
You have absolutely no idea what systematic discrimination means. With the statement you just made, you executed one of your rights as a cultural majority: Speaking out on subjects you barely know. Very few members of a minority would speak out as if their opinions were matters of fact.
(With this comment I do the same. The irony here does not escape me, but the subject is much too important to leave certain opinions unchallenged.)
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 25, 2011 5:26 UTC (Fri) by quartz (guest, #37351) [Link]
That's ridiculous, I'm a white male living in a different culture, under a different language, and I can tell you I suffered plenty of discrimination.
All it takes is not being like "average" in the local group (your office, your neighbourhood, even the pub or club you're in).
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Feb 27, 2011 8:25 UTC (Sun) by blujay (guest, #39961) [Link]
Right on, brother. Reverse discrimination makes me sick.
One of the reasons racism and sexism are still problems in some venues is that some people won't let them die.
In a way, claiming that there should be a certain ratio of male-to-female in anything is hypocritical from those who clamor for equality, because equality is really about freedom--having freedom equal to anyone else's freedom, regardless of sex, race, etc. People of both sexes are free (or ought to be free) to choose their activities and interests. No one ought to be telling women (or men) to be involved in (or not be involved in) whatever projects they choose because of an artificial problem of male/female ratio.
And, in fact, what is happening is more attention is being drawn to people's sex, which is the antithesis of the equality movements (which go too far when they attempt to erase differences between the sexes)! It's being made more of an issue instead of less of an issue.
Just let people do what they want. Yeesh.
The Ada Initiative takes a different approach Posted Mar 3, 2011 22:52 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
I think letting people do what they want is unacceptable when 'what they want' includes intimidating, threatening, or outright assaulting women.
Which is, it seems, a lot of the problem.
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