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Debugging conference anti-harassment policiesDebugging conference anti-harassment policiesPosted Feb 7, 2011 17:06 UTC (Mon) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)In reply to: Debugging conference anti-harassment policies by dneary Parent article: Debugging conference anti-harassment policies
If you are using the guideline that says "Avoid things likely to offend some people.", "Avoid unnecessary subjects." and "If someone in your audience is uncomfortable with something you've said, you're not doing your job." there is no telling what is in scope and what is not. It's subjective.
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Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 17:52 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Rules involving social interaction tend to be subjective. People tend to manage for the most part.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 19:39 UTC (Mon) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] Subjective rules are fine for parties. Although conferences have parties, their main function is a more serious one for which party rules are not appropriate.You really should be made uncomfortable at times by a good speaker, because that speaker's purpose is to make you think of things you would not have otherwise. And thus it's no surprise that the most controversial speaker in our industry is the one whose message was entirely swamped by reaction to a well-meant joke about "emacs virginity" by the folks who have since imposed party rules. I would much rather have conferences tell that speaker not to talk about "taking" any sort of virginity, as "taking" from someone is easy to construe as a violent act, than I would tell him not to make people uncomfortable!
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 19:54 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
If you're defining problematic behaviour in terms of whether or not it could be easily construed as violent, how do you objectively make the determination of whether a given behaviour is problematic or not?
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 20:34 UTC (Mon) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] If you're defining problematic behaviour in terms of whether or not it could be easily construed as violent, how do you objectively make the determination of whether a given behaviour is problematic or not?You need to analyze past situations and build rules based on how the actions violate an individual's civil rights rather than how they create feelings in that individual. Don't touch because it violates the right to safety. Don't portray or encourage violence or coercion because it encourages violation of the right to safety, even in so mild a form as jokes about taking virginity. Don't demean or humiliate racial, religious, ethnic, or sexual (including sexual orientation, not just gender) classes of people for being themselves. Such things tend to excuse discrimination against those classes, the violation of their right to safety, or repression of them. But also do not tolerate the imposition of religious or sexual rules upon others against their will, because it violates their freedom from repression. Understand that people can be very different from you, and you may parse their actions incorrectly because you have not understood them. Unless you are in immediate physical danger, consider how their intent may not have been to violate your rights. Make the rules specific. And if you find that one has been left out that should have been there, add it and make that specific too.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 20:47 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
You still seem to be trying to solve a different problem. I don't have any objection to that, and if you honestly think that you can codify a set of rules that covers every problematic behaviour we're likely to see without any subjectivity (such as "encourages" - who decides whether it encourages or not?) and without forbidding things that should be allowed, and if said rules aren't so long that it's impossible for anyone to reliably adhere to them, then I'd really encourage you to do so. It'd be a useful thing to have. But it wouldn't be a replacement for what we're talking about here, which is seeking to ensure that conference attendees enjoy a safe and relaxed atmosphere and as such requires consideration of human reaction rather than speaker motivation.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 20:59 UTC (Mon) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] But it wouldn't be a replacement for what we're talking about here, which is seeking to ensure that conference attendees enjoy a safe and relaxed atmosphere and as such requires consideration of human reaction rather than speaker motivation.I am pretty confident that I can define rules about keeping them safe. I think "relaxed" is vague, what we want is for all attendees to be confident that all in the event will respect and not violate their civil rights.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 21:03 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
"I am pretty confident that I can define rules about keeping them safe. I think "relaxed" is vague, what we want is for all attendees to be confident that all in the event will respect and not violate their civil rights."
Why do you keep using "we"? I'm pretty sure that that's not what the authors of the AHP want.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 21:10 UTC (Mon) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] "We" would include both speakers and attendees, the two parties whose rights are to be protected. I feel at least the speakers rights are endangered at present. The AHP authors simply missed the mark.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 21:14 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
...so by "We" you mean the speakers and attendees other than the speakers and attendees who have explained to you that your approach doesn't achieve the desired goal?
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 0:24 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] I mean the speakers and attendees other than the ones who, in my honest opinion, came up with an unfair and discriminatory strategy. It doesn't protect the people it is intended to protect well because it is so vague, and what protection they get is at another party's expense. The fact that it is "what you wanted" doesn't give you any special rights, but it does give you the responsibility to take the blame. You're violating people's civil rights, including mine. You could have done better. "Man up" and take responsibility.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 0:55 UTC (Tue) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link]
Bruce, are you seriously suggesting that the organizers of a conference are violating your civil rights if they do not choose to invite you as a speaker? Or by not choosing to invite a particular speaker you would like to hear?
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 1:22 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] Bruce, are you seriously suggesting that the organizers of a conference are violating your civil rights if they do not choose to invite you as a speaker? Or by not choosing to invite a particular speaker you would like to hear? Let's not be silly, please. Were you to speak as much as I have, you would not really want to go to yet another conference and deprive your 10-year-old of his daddy for another week. I make sure Stanley gets lots of my time, and consider conference opportunities very carefully. I turn down opening keynotes more often than not. However, I have seen opportunities where I would have submitted a paper, were the speaker guidelines not in place. But a policy that violates my rights is not acceptable, so I refrain from submitting. I understand the problem the guidelines are meant to address and wish to solve it fairly.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 2:02 UTC (Tue) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link]
That is a distinction without a difference. If you choose not to submit a talk that you think will be turned down as being contrary to the guidelines for selected presentations, that is a rational choice that saves everyone involved from a hassle. But nowhere in that scenario is there any violation of your civil rights.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 2:12 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] You don't seem to have parsed my reason. I am not refraining from submitting because I believe I would be rejected. I know how to produce speech proposals that are reliably accepted and have keynoted a conference of the organization behind the policy in question.I am refraining from submitting because I would have to be subjected to a policy that violates my rights, and is arbitrary and non-deterministic in the way it does so because of its vagueness and subjective nature - so there is no telling what will "offend" or "make someone uncomfortable" and no way to defend myself. For you to tell me "just don't submit" is like saying "That lady should simply have stayed in the back of the bus".
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 3:35 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
"You don't seem to have parsed my reason. I am not refraining from submitting because I believe I would be rejected. I know how to produce speech proposals that are reliably accepted and have keynoted a conference of the organization behind the policy in question."
You're confusing the Gnome Speaker Guidelines (which I wrote the first draft of) with the Anti-Harassment Policy adopted by LCA (which I had nothing to with).
"I am refraining from submitting because I would have to be subjected to a policy that violates my rights"
Given that you don't have any right to appear at a conference in the first place, and given that conferences have the right to terminate presentations at any time for any reason and issue whatever apologies they want to, I'm struggling to see how this violates your rights in any way whatsoever.
'For you to tell me "just don't submit" is like saying "That lady should simply have stayed in the back of the bus".'
You're genuinely arguing that a private event's requirement that speakers and attendees be conscious of the effect that their behaviour may have on others is equivalent to state-backed discrimination against its own citizens in their public life on the basis of the colour of their skin? There's... rather a lot of ways in which these things aren't analogous.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 4:05 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] You are correct, I am connecting the AHP with the GSP erroneously - at least if the AHP is not in any way derivative of the GSP. They both seem to embed the same problem of not being rights-based. Given that you don't have any right to appear at a conference in the first place, and given that conferences have the right to terminate presentations at any time for any reason and issue whatever apologies they want to, I'm struggling to see how this violates your rights in any way whatsoever. Suppose the conference decided to handle the problem of bad things happening to women by prohibiting women from attending. By your theory, the women's rights would not be violated. Apply your statement to the women instead of me: "they don't have any rights to attend in the first place". Sounds wrong, doesn't it? The plight of a speaker who values intellectual freedom (within clear limits designed to protect others) may be a lesser plight than the plight of women (or Blacks, in my previous example) but his rights are still worthy of protection.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 14:07 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
"Suppose the conference decided to handle the problem of bad things happening to women by prohibiting women from attending. By your theory, the women's rights would not be violated. Apply your statement to the women instead of me: "they don't have any rights to attend in the first place". Sounds wrong, doesn't it?"
If a conference chose to discriminate along those lines, it's not a conference I'd choose to attend. But as a privately-run event, the organisers would be within their rights to discriminate in that manner.
"The plight of a speaker who values intellectual freedom (within clear limits designed to protect others) may be a lesser plight than the plight of women (or Blacks, in my previous example) but his rights are still worthy of protection."
And that speaker has the right to speak at a different conference, or to organise a competing conference with a different set of behavioural policies. But since that speaker never had a right to speak at this conference in the first place, putting boundaries on their behaviour within the context of the conference is not limiting their rights.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 4:36 UTC (Tue) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link] Your position may be more nuanced, but if so you are not explaining it very well. From where I sit, it comes across like a parody:
Organizers: We welcome talks that meet the conference theme and guidelines.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 5:03 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] I do want the conference to accept topics that make people uncomfortable, like "why you should not use mono". I don't feel the conference is doing its job otherwise. I do feel that speakers (doesn't have to be me) have a right to present on that sort of topic and that intellectual freedom is harmed if they can't. I want to be able to present my speech without being judged using rules that I can't parse and can't prepare for. I accept that there should be rules to protect other's civil rights. They just have to be clear.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 17:45 UTC (Tue) by shmget (subscriber, #58347) [Link]
"who have explained to you that your approach doesn't achieve the desired goal?"
since you picked on the Bruce's 'we' usage: not "the" desired goal, but 'their' (the speaker and attendee you speak off) desired goal.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 8, 2011 0:35 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] I should have added to this one problem I've already discussed. Don't present people as sexual objects. Specifically, don't use images or live persons meant to direct attention mainly through sexual attraction, because 1) that deprives a person or class of people (often women) of their right to be treated as human beings and 2) the recipients of such messages (often men) are manipulated sexually for business purposes, which is molestation, thus violence. This deals with the T&A graphic and "booth babe" issue without imposing a dress code upon attendees, etc.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 19:58 UTC (Mon) by dneary (subscriber, #55185) [Link]
Hi,
> it's no surprise that the most controversial speaker in our industry is
That's exactly the point. He made plenty of people unconfortable that day with his history lesson on the origins of GNOME and the reasons why we should avoid depending on Mono. What do people remember? The well, meant but ill-phrased emacs virginity joke.
Cheers,
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 20:40 UTC (Mon) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] I think that walking out of the hall, many more people remembered what he had to say about mono.The fact that people now remember the emacs joke is a result of subsequent beating of political drums about it, IMO way over the top and I still believe that one of the parties beating drums used the women's issue to promote his own agenda.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 20:03 UTC (Mon) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]
Even though it is is subjective, most people will get it "right" most of the time. Aren't people amazing!
And when people don't get it "right", someone will complain (politely I hope as I think was the case at LCA), an apology can be offered, and the incident becomes information that future speakers can use to guide their subjective decisions.
Thus workable guidelines get defined largely by a set of examples.
Sure: the mathematician in me would rather precise guidelines, but the community member in me knows that it not possible and tends to create as many problems as it fixes (and hence is only valuable if the problems it fixes are much more severe that the problems it creates).
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 7, 2011 20:43 UTC (Mon) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] It is possible to create working, precise guidelines from past incidents, based on analysis of the violation of civil rights in those incidents. I sat down and wrote down a start of this in another LWN message. Don't be lazy.
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