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Debugging conference anti-harassment policiesDebugging conference anti-harassment policiesPosted Feb 5, 2011 3:10 UTC (Sat) by shmget (subscriber, #58347)In reply to: Debugging conference anti-harassment policies by BrucePerens Parent article: Debugging conference anti-harassment policies
"It is coercive sex which is offensive, which is of course a form of violence."
Well, apparently that depend on the mood of the day. Not so long ago the up-in-arms was about the so-called 'soft-porn' in the CouchDB presentation.
"You seem to be repeating the unfortunately popular social convention that sex is offensive while violence is not"
I may be unfortunate, but it is a very real state of affair and not a 'popular' myth.
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Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 5:11 UTC (Sat) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
As has already been pointed out to you, this is unrelated to cultural perceptions of sex. Does the US have an entirely maladjusted view of the relative damage caused by sexual images compared to violent ones? In my opinion, yes. Is this what we're talking about? Not in the slightest.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 6:50 UTC (Sat) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] Is this what we're talking about? Not in the slightest. Not so sure. Unfortunately ours is a warlike society and thus values coercive behavior. You could take much of the ambiguity out of the process of determining what is appropriate at a conference by considering whether it is in some way coercive (and thus violent). Obviously touching is directly coercive behavior. It's the "take" in "take their emacs virginity" that makes it language about a coercive act. Speakers can use imagery and language that makes you uncomfortable or offends you to make a point. It is when the language or imagery depict or encourage coercive behavior that they are unfair to the parties to which such coercion is directed. If a future conference policy were to focus on coercion rather than what makes one uncomfortable or offends, it would be much less ambiguous and much more fair.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 17:42 UTC (Sat) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
"Speakers can use imagery and language that makes you uncomfortable or offends you to make a point. It is when the language or imagery depict or encourage coercive behavior that they are unfair to the parties to which such coercion is directed."
I don't think this is an accurate characterisation of the situation. It's entirely possible to use imagery of women in bikinis in a non-coercive manner, but that doesn't mean that doing so is acceptable in a technical presentation. The reasons for this have been explained at length.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 18:00 UTC (Sat) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] It's entirely possible to use imagery of women in bikinis in a non-coercive manner, but that doesn't mean that doing so is acceptable in a technical presentation. Or men in thongs. But the point there is that objectifies people (treats them as sexual objects). Which is easy to describe and identify as a category of material to be avoided, as is material that depicts or encourages coercion. This still seems 1000 times more specific, unambiguous, and easy to identify than guidelines based on being offensive or making uncomfortable.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 18:16 UTC (Sat) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
No. The problem with the images is not that they objectify people. The problem with the images is the effect they have on the audience, which has nothing to do with objectification.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 18:28 UTC (Sat) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] The problem with the images is the effect they have on the audience, which has nothing to do with objectification.Really? I was thinking that the images were offensive because they objectified a person. If you are merely objecting to them because they titillate, then state that clearly. "Effect they have on the audience" doesn't even state what effect, which I am sure you can produce. And of course it's an auteur's job to effect the audience, so it gets you into territory that can never be disambiguated. Just classifying based on discomfort or offense is really "I know what it is, but I can't describe it". And you really don't know what it is in that case, because it's subjective.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 18:41 UTC (Sat) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
What? I'm not objecting to them because they titillate. I'm objecting to them because of the atmosphere they create, which disproportionately affects a specific group in the community.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 19:32 UTC (Sat) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] I'm objecting to them because of the atmosphere they create, which disproportionately affects a specific group in the community. You really can arrive at a concrete statement, I'm sure you can see how vague this still is. How does it effect them, what specific group, why is it disproportinate?
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 19:35 UTC (Sat) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Have you read the rest of the discussion? I'd perhaps naively assumed that you wouldn't be offering solutions without having done so, but I'm now beginning to suspect that you haven't.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 19:42 UTC (Sat) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] Yes. I see a problem in that discussion that you still seem to be missing, which is that the problems come from a lack of specificity and a subjective nature.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 19:47 UTC (Sat) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
And you're proposing solutions that don't actually demonstrate any understanding of why the existing policy exists. It's not about coercion. It's not about titillation. It's not about objectification. It's about how the audience feels, and it's not practical to come up with an exhaustive list of things to avoid in order to prevent them feeling that way. It's inherently subjective, because so are people.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 22:47 UTC (Sat) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] It's about how the audience feels You can go to jail for rape, or assault, or maybe even some form of harassment, and in some countries for hate speech, but not for simply hurting someone's feelings or making them uncomfortable with your words. Ever think about why? It's simply the difference between objective and subjective. We have no good way of fairly ruling on the subjective. That's why policies that rely on subjective parameters must, simply by their nature, be oppressive and unjust.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 22:57 UTC (Sat) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
We're talking about a policy that's analogous to a corporate sexual harassment policy, not a law. The original paper selection process was subjective too.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 0:14 UTC (Sun) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] We're talking about a policy that's analogous to a corporate sexual harassment policyOK, let's look at some corporate sexual harassment policies, then. First, it's important to recognize that they are regarding the environment in which a person has to spend much of their life working, not just a conference. But they have a lower standard that we seem to have for conferences, and real rules. This is from http://www.elinfonet.com/human-resources/Sexual-Harassment/
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 0:17 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
...which appears to be a list of a variety of subjective rules. What point are you actually trying to make?
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 0:27 UTC (Sun) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] The one that stands out most is: whether the discriminatory conduct is physically threatening or humiliating or a mere offensive utterance The point here is that an environment where obscentity is used is not for that reason alone a sexually harassing environment. The presence of a physical threat or humiliation is evaluated. Certainly we must entirely prohibit physical threats and humiliation at our conferences, and we can do so with much more precise language than we are using. But "mere offensive utterance" is so subjective that whether or not you are guilty is not based upon a "reasonable person" standard but upon the specific people who make the decision.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 0:36 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
With the difference between "humiliating" and "mere offensive utterance" being precisely and objectively defined?
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 0:48 UTC (Sun) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] With the difference between "humiliating" and "mere offensive utterance" being precisely and objectively defined? Obviously whether a communication is directed toward a person or class of people would be a determination. Calling a woman "b***h" is intended to humiliate her. Undirected obscentity is merely offensive. But this is not to say that courts or corporate sexual harassment policies have really grappled with the subject, either. In fact, there is one place where they seriously blow it, which is that they consider harassment to be only unwelcome advances. Making it entirely dependent upon something the recipient decides after the message has already been sent. A fair rule would simply direct employees not to make such advances to their co-workers.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 0:55 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Well, that would be one determination - but it's hardly the only one. Which seems to support my point. The rest of the world doesn't rely on precise and objective definitions of acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, and so your argument that a conference anti-harassment policy should doesn't seem to be terribly grounded in reality.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 1:00 UTC (Sun) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] So because those deciding a loosely-related topic don't do better, you think you don't have to either. And thus ignoring the fact that you could have drafted a fair policy, and still can is in some way OK, even though people are being oppressed and treated unfairly. That hardly seems ethical.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 1:10 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
It is impossible to simultaneously achieve your definition of a fair policy and for that policy to achieve its desired goals for reasons that have been previously explained. While it's clear that conference organisers can take advantage of the fact that we're working in a grey area in order to unfairly punish individuals, the reality is that conference organisers can do whatever they want at their conference anyway. I haven't seen any evidence that they tend to do so, and I don't think I've seen any cases where the anti-harassment policy has been used to oppress or treat people unfairly.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 23:20 UTC (Sun) by shmget (subscriber, #58347) [Link]
"I don't think I've seen any cases where the anti-harassment policy has been used to oppress or treat people unfairly."
Have you read the article your are commenting on?
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 23:30 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
The policy states that no sexual images should be displayed in public places. Mark's keynote displayed sexual images in public places. There's nothing subjective whatsoever about the decision that followed, and Bruce's statement was related to the distinction between subjective and objective decision making. So on that basis, no, it wasn't used to oppress or treat anyone unfairly.
Mark's made no indication that he believes that the organisers' decision to apologise was unfair. In fact, without being required to in any way whatsoever, he made a personal apology. So even on the grounds that you're arguing, there's no evidence that anyone was oppressed or treated unfairly.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 21:36 UTC (Sat) by shmget (subscriber, #58347) [Link]
"Have you read the rest of the discussion?"
he seems to have, and so did I, but the problem here is that you take a fallacy, turn that to an 'absolute and undeniable' Truth(tm)' and then demand that everybody subscribe to your unsubstantiated misandric position.
I challenge you to produce a study that demonstrate the causality that you claim. (namely that showing a girl in a bikini to a group of 'male' turn them into uncontrolled sex-maniac that are going to jump any female in the immediate vicinity, or even better in that case, showing them a cartoon of a pig doing a goose or a fake road-sign with some sexual content achieve the same result)
Furthermore, I did not read you or other proponent of your thesis demanding strict dress code for female at conference, after all if the mere sight of a sexy picture can have the devastating effect you claim they have, imagine what a good looking garment could do. Of course good looking female should also, by the same logic , be banned from conference, since they put - still by the same logic - every women in the audience in dire risk of rape.... stupid isn't it ? yeah I thought so.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 5, 2011 21:54 UTC (Sat) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Oddly, that's not the argument I'm making. I don't think it fundamentally matters whether or not showing reasonably mild sexualised images at a conference results in a statistically measurable increase in the number of sexual assaults carried out by participants[1]. What matters is that the audience are able to enjoy the presentation without sections of it being made to feel distinctly different from other sections of it.
[1] There's various pieces of work that indicate that there's some level of association.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 6:52 UTC (Sun) by AdamRichter (guest, #11129) [Link]
"[1] There's various pieces of work that indicate that there's some level of association." I, for one, would consider your credibility increased if you would provide a little more detail in your citations, even it's just "I think a friend told me last year" or "I thought I saw it on a television advertisement in the United States about twenty years ago." If you don't remember a single reference at all, it would still help your credibility with me if you would explicitly admit it.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 6, 2011 16:36 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Sure. Haavio-Mannila et al is repeatedly cited for sexual harassment being linked to the degree to which an environment is sexualised - sadly it doesn't seem to be online and most of the referring articles are also behind paywalls (such as Pryor et al, 1993, from which the relevant line is "If local norms are more permissive with regard to sexual behaviour, sexual harassment is more likely to occur"). There's also a fair amount of research into the role of sexism and rape proclivity, such as http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20042541 (exposure to sexist jokes tends to increase men's willingness to self-report willingness to engage in rape, but this is influenced by their attitude towards sexist jokes in the first place)
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 11, 2011 18:39 UTC (Fri) by AdamRichter (guest, #11129) [Link]
Thank you for the references. This response may seem nit-picking at first, but I way to honor your taking the trouble to provide references by providing a serious response, and also I think it is important to fight public misconceptions and moral panics, so here goes.
I got one hit on Google Books, zero on Google web, and zero on Google scholar for your quotation from "repeatedly cited" Elina Haavio-Mannila, whose wikipedia page is only available in Finnish, which I find surprising for someone being used used as an authority on a subject of such universal interest.
That quotation from Haavio-Mannila, "if local norms are more permissive with regard to sexual behavior, sexual harassment is more likely to occur", does not necessary even support your claim tht "showing reasonably mild sexualised images at a conference results in a statistically measurable increase in the number of sexual assaults carried out by participants", since showing an activity does not necessarily indicate that that activity is the local norm. Come to think of it, the opposite can be true. Quite often an activity is interesting enough to show because it is the not the norm, such as a news presentation. I think it's fair to say that a common theme among the other images in mark's presentation was that they were showing images outside of the "local norm", so the inclusion of an image in that set does not imply that is is the local norm, and would not, by the logic of Evina Haavio-Mannila's statement, necessarily make sexual harassment more likely to occur.
Moving to your second reference, the link to the abstract that you include only describes sexual jokes as making subjects more willing to confess, which is different from making people more willing to commit an act. Just to illustrate with a speculative scenario, it's not entirely implausible to me that seeing something made light of might make one feel revulsion, think introspectively about it and be more willing to confess as a path toward self improvement.
So, I'm not convinced yet that "there's various pieces of work that indicate that there's some level of association" for your claim that "showing reasonably mild sexualised images at a conference results in a statistically measurable increase in the number of sexual assaults carried out by participants."
However, I am digressing with this argument. As I acknowledged at the outset, you did say that you "don't think it fundamentally matters", and what I really objected to was that you then made an utterly untraceable reference to try to support your claim. It is important to me to reduce attempts to make vague untraceable references to authority, which I see as argument by intimidation, which I suspect contribute to public misconceptions (but I don't know of any studies to support this).
Anyhow, thank you very much for providing references. Even though I find the references unconvincing so far (maybe I need to go read Havvio-Mannila's book), your proving references of any kind has substantially increased your credibility in my view.
Debugging conference anti-harassment policies Posted Feb 11, 2011 9:49 UTC (Fri) by Seegras (subscriber, #20463) [Link]
> But the point there is that objectifies people
> (treats them as sexual objects). Which is easy > to describe and identify as a category of material > to be avoided, as is material that depicts or > encourages coercion.
I absolutely concur with that. THIS is what
And this is of course the prime example for it:
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