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Why DJB's plan failWhy DJB's plan failPosted Jan 27, 2011 22:06 UTC (Thu) by lutchann (subscriber, #8872)In reply to: Why DJB's plan fail by dlang Parent article: LCA: IP address exhaustion and the end of the open net
Your attitude of the IPv6 standard is so large and hard to get right and having to run dual stack is considerably more expensive and complicated than just running IPv4 suggests you really don't have much experience with IPv6. Yet you're confident that even an idiot could have come up with a simple extension to IPv4 that would have solved the address exhaustion problem and everyone would have enthusiastically adopted it. If you want to flesh out your proposed IPv4 extensions for how IPv6 "should have been", I'm sure we would have more to debate, but for now I'm going to lump you with the rest of the "I hate upgrades, why can't my vendor make a magic box to fix this for me" crowd.
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Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 27, 2011 22:18 UTC (Thu) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
IPv6 is not an upgrade. It's a new setup. To see what? The 3 sites currently running on IPv6? Ergo the objections.
All of your comments suggest that you have way too much experience with IPv6, so you have become fond of it, although it's useless shit in it's present form. It happens. Most people just want their computers connected to the net. Yeah, I know - that common sense thing. Apologies from the commoners, your highness! ;-)
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 27, 2011 23:08 UTC (Thu) by lutchann (subscriber, #8872) [Link]
*shrug* The market will decide. Providers will fix the address exhaustion problem with the cheapest solution that their customers will accept, which may or may not involve IPv6.
But it's insulting for you, dlang, DJB, or anyone else to walk in after a decade or more of development and say, "You guys are idiots. I haven't really thought it through, but my solution is way better. Too bad you didn't ask for my help from the beginning, because it's too late to do it my way now, and you'll just have to live with the shame of knowing I was right and you were wrong."
I mean, seriously. That's pretty immature.
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 27, 2011 23:25 UTC (Thu) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
for some of us it's not just waling in after two decades of development and saying 'you should have done this', many of us have been saying that the IPv6 'migration plan' was bogus for many years.
there are even people who have been saying this (some of them very vocally) since the plan was presented, before it was voted on.
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 27, 2011 23:38 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Yet it was voted on and accepted by IETF. DJB's plain failed to do even that. Any transition depends on acceptance. Which plan is better: the one which was adopted by committee or the one which was adopted by few fanboys? Yes, the committee is not always right (sometimes industry implements something totally different from what the IETF or ISO proposes), but current trends show the situation clearly: IETF's plan is adopted by millions while DJB's plan was not adopted by anyone (I know few crazy fanboys who talk about it constantly but noone who ever tried to actually implement it). So if our current translation plan is "failure" DJB's plan is "failure of such an epic proportion that it's not even funny".
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 28, 2011 0:17 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> Which plan is better: the one which was adopted by committee or the one which was adopted by few fanboys?
> So if our current translation plan is "failure" DJB's plan is "failure of such an epic proportion that it's not even funny".
So, people that were warning about the dangers of sub-prime mortgage markets, default swaps, pyramid selling etc. (i.e. the plan that was _not_ put in action) are a failure of epic proportions? Not the ones that caused the GFC? You are really funny.
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 28, 2011 0:44 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] So, people that were warning about the dangers of sub-prime mortgage markets, default swaps, pyramid selling etc. (i.e. the plan that was _not_ put in action) are a failure of epic proportions? Sure. Not the ones that caused the GFC? "The ones that caused the GFC" architected the Reaganomics to kill the USSR. Plan successed brilliantly, but GFC become unevitable at this point. "People that were warning about the dangers of sub-prime mortgage markets, default swaps, pyramid selling" and other "atrocities" just described what they see - they had no idea what they are talking about, why the structure they are talking about was created and how it works in first place. All these "atrocities" posponed the GFC by about 3-5 years, but made it more profound. Was is good trade-off? Well, it's hard to say, but it gave people few more years of respite before decade (or may be two) of suffering. Just like with IPv6: people who are moving it forward are solving real problems while clueless people like DJB complain that the plan has unintended consequences. Well, duh - but what is your plan?
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 28, 2011 0:59 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> Well, duh - but what is your plan?
Here is my plan. I have this program called ping on my system. With it, I can check whether my Internet connection works. I tried it with ipv6.google.com, but it didn't work. I'm pretty sure my connection works (it's been on for many years now). I can also ping pretty much everything out there. So, it must me some kind of a software problem.
I'd like to get a series of software upgrades so that my connection works with ipv6.google.com. Yeah, I know - I can't get that. It was a rhetorical request anyway.
So, back to the real world. My plan is to wait and see. Maybe my ISP will do something so that I can really see IPv6 world without wasting hours and hours on currently useless effort of enabling IPv6. Maybe I won't need to because they'll just whack several layers of NAT in between. I dunno.
Or maybe they'll tell me I have to do all this useless work after all. I'll have to "connect again" although I have a perfectly good connection.
That's my plan. Pretty much anything goes. Isn't it grand?
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 28, 2011 1:33 UTC (Fri) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link]
> I'd like to get a series of software upgrades so that my connection works with ipv6.google.com. Yeah, I know - I can't get that.
Actually, you can. If someone made a software upgrade which installed and enabled teredo (which needs no configuration to work), your connection would work with ipv6.google.com. On Windows, there is no need to install teredo at all, just enable it - and I heard some Bittorrent clients did enable it for you automatically. And teredo works perfectly with ipv6.google.com.
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 28, 2011 1:57 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
OK, one problem solved. And people will then be able to access my IPv4 addressed site too over IPv6? My firewall will work? And all my services will be reconfigured? I think not.
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 28, 2011 2:53 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> OK, one problem solved.
Actually, scrap that. The ping would not have come from my IPv4 address, so it doesn't really count.
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 27, 2011 23:43 UTC (Thu) by lutchann (subscriber, #8872) [Link]
During the many years you and others were complaining about IPv6 being bogus, why didn't anybody come up with alternative solutions to the address exhaustion problem? It sounds like you've had plenty of time.
The very fact that no credible alternatives to IPv6 have gained traction (at least since NAT appeared in the mid-'90s) kind of suggests that the problem is not as easy to solve as you insist.
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 28, 2011 0:12 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> During the many years you and others were complaining about IPv6 being bogus, why didn't anybody come up with alternative solutions to the address exhaustion problem? It sounds like you've had plenty of time.
People did come up with alternative ideas, they were not accepted. Sometimes such mistakes happen. For instance, we had this thing called GFC in 2008. Huge carnage all around the world, caused by a similarly bad plan.
Why DJB's plan fail Posted Jan 28, 2011 0:06 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
Oh, sorry. The grand plan forged 20 years ago that produced nothing thus far is a great success. Just like Itanium. :-)
Nobody is calling anyone an idiot. It just a bad, bad plan that didn't really work.
How do I know this? I cannot ping ipv6.google.com and I am connected to the Internet right now. It's that simple.
But, forget DJB, me, dlang and the rest of the "unimportant" folk. Cerf and Huston are saying the exact same thing, just a touch more politically correct.
To quote Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv4_address_exhaustion): "By early 2012, new devices and services are expected to appear on the Internet that are only reachable by IPv6. These will only be accessible from the IPv4 Internet if older hosts that cannot implement IPv6 utilize special translator gateway services."
So, the grand plan for a clean new protocol needs "emulators" to work. Simply hilarious!
I know that things will eventually sort themselves out. They always do. That does not mean we are not allowed to criticise a bad plan.
Well, yes... Posted Jan 28, 2011 0:31 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Oh, sorry. The grand plan forged 20 years ago that produced nothing thus far is a great success. Just like Itanium. :-) Sorry, but there is a difference: Itanium was great success for a time - before AMD started selling Opterons. When Opteron outsold Itanium is was easy to see and say that Itanium is failure - but not before. Now, where is your alternative to IPv6 with more users then IPv6 (or at least with estimates which show that it'll overcome number of IPv6 deployments any time soon). Till such alternative materializes DJBs plan is just a useless rant. Nobody is calling anyone an idiot. It just a bad, bad plan that didn't really work. Why do you say it didn't work? Where is your alternative which pushes IPv6 away? So, the grand plan for a clean new protocol needs "emulators" to work. Simply hilarious! It's sad, not hilarious, but it's no different from AMD64, for example: without syscall 32bit emulation layer your old programs no longer work. And your 32bit drivers no longer work period.
Well, yes... Posted Jan 28, 2011 0:42 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> Itanium was great success for a time
Hey, when did we switch to stand up comedy? I wasn't warned! Good one - love it. ;-)
> Why do you say it didn't work?
Remember that ping6 I did to ipv6.google.com? It says network unreachable. I'm pretty sure I'm connected. Not sure what's going on there... :-)
> Where is your alternative which pushes IPv6 away?
I don't want to push it away. I'd like to use it. But I can't.
> without syscall 32bit emulation layer your old programs no longer work. And your 32bit drivers no longer work period.
Yes they do. On my 32-bit OS running on amd64.
Oh, and on 64-bit, I didn't even know I had 32bit emulation layer (OK, I did, but I didn't have to know) and they still worked. Good folk at Red Hat and Microsoft did all that for me. So sad they couldn't reuse my IPv4 address to use on IPv6.
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