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It just shows how badly even intelligent people may misunderstood the simple problemIt just shows how badly even intelligent people may misunderstood the simple problemPosted Jan 26, 2011 13:36 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252)In reply to: It just shows how badly even intelligent people may misunderstood the simple problem by bojan Parent article: LCA: Vint Cerf on re-engineering the Internet
From what I can tell, DJB wrote his piece in 2002. That's over 8 years ago. Yup. How much IP sensitive network equipment is around from then or even before that when IPv6 was designed? Problably little. Wrong question. Right question: how much IP sensitive network equipment without IPv6 support are still produced today? Probably a lot. People are delaying IPv6 as much as possible - and without "magic function" you can not change anything there. This is well-known phenomenon and you can not change much there. Bernstein explains how to solve non-problem: how to marry endpoints if the routing infrastructure does not need an upgrade (as was in the case of MX records: you needed change on Internet endpoints, but it didn't affect routers in the middle). IPv4-to-IPv6 transition does not need to solve such problem because it does not exist: most endpoints have IPv6 support (and had for many years) already. The real problem (the need to upgrade routers "in the middle") is silently ignored in the article. It is a simple fact that right now we cannot reach any IPv6 hosts from pure IPv4 addresses that have been around for a while. This was never in the plan - and rightfully so. All the software and networking equipment is way newer than that and it just doesn't work. Sure - but this is because IPv4 addresses are still available! They are expensive, true, but they are available! That is interoperability failure, whether you want to admit it or not. No, this is application of "Internet only just works" principle. IPv6 will be employed when it'll be needed - and not before. IP, CIDR and other network-wide specifications were introduced under extreme pressure when other options were exhausted - because any other way just does not make any sense from economics POV. I suspect that LTE which will introduce hundred of millions IPv6-only clients will be the required push, but then again, may be not (proxies will mitigate the problem for a while). But Bernstein's plan is just stupid: the fact that you need new kind of IP number supplied by ISP never was a problem (and still is not a problem). The fact that ISP must replace it's expensive hardware was and is a problem - and article kind of ignores that problem completely.
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It just shows how badly even intelligent people may misunderstood the simple problem Posted Jan 26, 2011 13:52 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
Sorry, but you completely misinterpreted what DJB wrote. He was talking about upgrading everything on the net with software that understands both types of addresses. This includes routers. This was 8 years ago - plenty of time.
The reason this wasn't done is that IPv6 in its form (as proposed) was useless and not interoperable with IPv4, ergo nobody wanted to spend time configuring something that had no application.
The whole thing should have happened transparently, so that current IPv4 site didn't have to change a single thing to work with IPv6 addresses. If network manufacturers received that message, there would be no question which equipment to buy. It would be one and the same. And you would not have IPv6/v4 stack combos on OSes - just IPv6 that included IPv4. That's the point that you missed.
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 26, 2011 14:20 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Sorry, but you completely misinterpreted what DJB wrote. He was talking about upgrading everything on the net with software that understands both types of addresses. This includes routers. This was 8 years ago - plenty of time. To throw good money after bad? All pieces where it was cheap and easy to add IPv6 support were upgraded in these 8 years, only routers are the hold-out - and they are real problem. The reason this wasn't done is that IPv6 in its form (as proposed) was useless and not interoperable with IPv4, ergo nobody wanted to spend time configuring something that had no application. No, the reason it was not done is that it's more expensive to install IPv6 on router and gives you no benefits. DJB does not address this issue at all. In his plan ISPs will magically decide to be altruists and install more expensive and useless hardware for the sake of the future. This is not how ISPs operate if they want to survive. The whole thing should have happened transparently, so that current IPv4 site didn't have to change a single thing to work with IPv6 addresses. Have you read the article? This is definitely not what I'm seeing: (2) I control the operating system and the applications. I am ready and willing to make various changes to the code. This asinine dilemma does not change anything WRT to real problem. If network manufacturers received that message, there would be no question which equipment to buy. It would be one and the same. How come? How exactly you propose to make IPv6 router as cheap as IPv4 router? Remember: IPv4 routers are highly-optimized pieces of ASIC which are optimized for particular bit-layout of packets (if you use optional flags in IPv4 they slowdown by factor of 10x-100x, these packets are dropped early, etc). This is critical question - and both you and DJB keep to ignore it. And you would not have IPv6/v4 stack combos on OSes - just IPv6 that included IPv4. There are very few OSes without IPv6. The problem lies with networking hardware. You know: FPGA, ASICs - things which are expensive and hard to change. That's the point that you missed. I've not missed it: as I've said it's irrelevant. The problem which this approach was supposed to fix either does not exist (we can change OS and everything else, but can not ask for a new IPv6 address - WTF? why no?) or impossible (we want to participate in IPv4 network using only IPv6 address: how?). The real problem is not discussed at all: DJB presumes that it's easy to change hardware/software on ISP side and hard on the client side while in reality it's the other way around.
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 26, 2011 14:36 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
So, IPv6 is designed to embed IPv4, standards are witten, all software manufacturers start implementing IPv6 that includes v4 (i.e. understands 16 byte addresses as well), but network equipment manufacturers (according to you) do not implement this at all because they cannot redesign their ASICs to do that in almost 10 years. And on top of that, ISPs do not buy a single new router in that time.
Ten years ago all Cisco routers were routinely accessed via telnet. These days folks mostly use ssh. Things change when the right signals are given.
IPv6 transition is being handled rougly like the 2000 bug. At the last minute people are scrambling to cobble together workarounds. At least old programmers had a good excuse - space was at a premium.
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 26, 2011 14:59 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] So, IPv6 is designed to embed IPv4, standards are witten, all software manufacturers start implementing IPv6 that includes v4 (i.e. understands 16 byte addresses as well), but network equipment manufacturers (according to you) do not implement this at all because they cannot redesign their ASICs to do that in almost 10 years. Yeah, let's go with strawman. Of course they support both IPv6 and IPv4. For example Nexus 7000 M-Series (found in one minute using Google): up to 60 million packets per second (Mpps) of IPv4 unicast forwarding traffic and up to 30 Mpps of IPv6 unicast forwarding traffic. Price difference between IPv4 and IPv6 is exactly two times. And on top of that, ISPs do not buy a single new router in that time. Sure they do, but they disable IPv6: this gives 2x price saving. They are not stupid: why spend $200'000 when you can spend $100'000 and give the same features to end-users? IPv6 transition is being handled rougly like the 2000 bug. At the last minute people are scrambling to cobble together workarounds. At least old programmers had a good excuse - space was at a premium. It's still a premium and prices for network equipment show...
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 26, 2011 15:23 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
The only reason they can disable (or not pick) IPv6 is because they are two different protocols. Which is exactly the problem with this transition plan. They don't need IPv6, because they are not expecting anyone to use it. Because it's useless. Because all hosts are IPv4.
If transition was handled differently, all hosts with current 32 bit addresses (which would also work as 128 bit ones) would also be IPv6 hosts, so having IPv6 on routers would actually be (surprise!) useful.
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 26, 2011 17:15 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] If transition was handled differently, all hosts with current 32 bit addresses (which would also work as 128 bit ones) would also be IPv6 hosts, so having IPv6 on routers would actually be (surprise!) useful. Useful for what? In this plan (the same as with current one) you can still safely disable useless extension on networking router, save half of the money and users will not notice. What incentive will there be for the ISP to support this extension? If Cisco will decide that it's good idea to support IPv6 unconditionally then it'll just lose to Juniper (or some other firm) which will implement "turbo mode" with 32bit addresses only...
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 26, 2011 19:18 UTC (Wed) by cmccabe (guest, #60281) [Link]
Routers have to go through qualification tests-- sometimes very difficult ones, in third party labs. I'm sure there are a lot of features Cisco would like to drop from IPv4 and IPv6, but guess what: they can't. Not if they want to call their equpiment compatible.
You are focusing on the wrong end of the problem completely. Big equipment vendors love new standards, especially if they're complicated and difficult to implement. It creates churn, which means more purchase orders, which means more money.
The problem is that IPv6, as designed, is as useless as a screen door on a submarine until the magic moment arrives-- the IPv6 rapture, if you will. And ISPs are focused on Q4.
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 26, 2011 21:51 UTC (Wed) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
So, your approach is to hope that people will pay extra for something they don't want, because you said so.
Why do you need DJB's jabbering for that? You can just demand they pay extra for IPv6. Call it "Super Internet Plus" if you like. Go lobby your representative. See how much that helps.
The idea that because something is "part of" IP therefore it works on all the network gear people are buying? Just more proof you're completely out of touch with the real world. It is completely _normal_ to have stuff that doesn't work. Most of the time there's a config switch, the default is conservative, everything else is a lucky dip. All the features that deviate from the most basic processing of unicast TCP traffic are in the lucky dip category. You know Intel shipped a whole stepping of i386 that can't run protected mode Windows? That's the whole point of the 386, and it didn't work. Vendors have shipped whole families of products where they know there are features that just don't work. But "Oops, yes that is a bug, we'll let you know if we can fix it in firmware" is a lot better than "No, we can't deliver that feature, we won't bid". Nobody is going to sue - network admins in big corporations (especially big tight-fisted corporations) are used to being disappointed.
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 26, 2011 22:28 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> So, your approach is to hope that people will pay extra for something they don't want, because you said so.
No. For something they want.
I cannot request access to a cool new IPv6 site right now. I'm on IPv4. So, my ISP cannot possibly have request for IPv6 traffic from me. Ergo, IPv6 is useless to them (and me).
Have my stacks been upgraded so that my current IPv4 addressing just worked with IPv6, occasionally I would get an AAAA response to my DNS queries (that is also stupid - this should have been simple A - but that's a different issue altogether), which would have a genuine IPv6 address in it. Now, I would not be able to access this site, because my ISP failed to buy IPv6 capable equipment, although my network was already IPv6 ready without me touching a thing in my config (I'm already on the net).
So, I have a choice:
1. Drop this stupid ISP and get one that does IPv6.
In both cases IPv6 wins by default.
Right now, the onus of IPv6 upgrade is on each and every customer. Each and every customer already connected to the only net we have. For no good purpose whatsoever.
You've lost one more possibility. Posted Jan 26, 2011 23:45 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] So, I have a choice: Sorry, but you forgot one more choice:
3. Forget about crazy site which by someone's folly only have IPv6 address. Because 99% users sites choose option number 3 (DJB plan or no DJB plan) there are no need to think about these silly AAAA-only sites. ISPs know this full well. Right now, the onus of IPv6 upgrade is on each and every customer. And this is not a problem at all: either you have IPv6-capable OS like Windows7 (where you only need to connect to the IPv6 internet to use IPv6) or you have something like PS3 or XBox360 where IPv6 does not work because developers just decided to ignore it. In both cases DJB plan is not needed at all. Sure, if you have large organization you'll need to do something, but "IPv6 works by default" approach will not help there at all: a lot of such organizations (most of them?) disable direct access to internet and ask uses to use proxy with authorization - and all that must be changed for IPv6 anyway.
You've lost one more possibility. Posted Jan 27, 2011 3:13 UTC (Thu) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> 3. Forget about crazy site which by someone's folly only have IPv6 address.
Folly? You mean the address exhaustion. Yeah, let's do that. That'll work as well as the current plan. Which is to say not work at all.
> either you have IPv6-capable OS
I have an IPv6 capable OS. I have a relatively new DSL router with very young software on it. I have a valid net address. I have my DNS configured. I have my firewall configured. I've been connected to the net for a few years now using the same address. And yet, I cannot ping ipv6.google.com. That is what common sense people call "interoperability failure." I'm sure you'll have some funny explanation for this, full of acronyms like ASIC, FPGA etc. :-)
No, I meant simple fact... Posted Jan 27, 2011 8:58 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] > 3. Forget about crazy site which by someone's folly only have IPv6 address. No, I meant another folly: someone decides to implement IPv6-only resource in an IPv4 world. This is real stupidity and you can safely ignore such people - their resource will be dead very soon anyway. Of course if it's some kind of underground resource and you absolutely positively need to visit it... you'll find a way. Just like people without access to the Internet had a ways to download some files from it (yes, I mean ftpmail and other similar technologies). That'll work as well as the current plan. Which is to say not work at all. It works perfectly. Just like any disruptive technology it starts from the places where IPv4 just does not fit and goes from there. The only problem: IPv4 address are still not scarce enough so there are few such niches. I have an IPv6 capable OS. I have a relatively new DSL router with very young software on it. I have a valid net address. I have my DNS configured. I have my firewall configured. I've been connected to the net for a few years now using the same address. But you don't have an ISP which supports IPv6 - and that is the problem. Everything else is irrelevent and if you'll not have such provider IPv6 will not work. DJB plan or no DJB plan. And yet, I cannot ping ipv6.google.com. That is what common sense people call "interoperability failure." I'm sure you'll have some funny explanation for this, full of acronyms like ASIC, FPGA etc. :-) And you'll insist that somehow it can be solved by the insane DJB plan. You were asked dozen of times: how exactly this plan materialize ISPs with IPv6 routers. You refused to answer. This means one thing and one thing only: you don't know. And if you don't know how this critical part will be worked out with DJB plan then what evidence do you have that it may work?
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 26, 2011 22:09 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> Useful for what?
Routing of packets from hosts.
Bottom line: lots of people have to do unnecessary work for no benefit at all. They are already on the net. Why do they have to connect again? Yeah, it's that simple.
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 27, 2011 0:01 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] > Useful for what? You mean: DJB plan will magically induce ISPs to throw money for no apperent reason? Hard to believe... Bottom line: lots of people have to do unnecessary work for no benefit at all. They are already on the net. Why do they have to connect again? Yeah, it's that simple. Bottom line: there were more CompuServer users 20 years ago then Internet users back then. They all are gone today. 20 years down the road IPv4 user will be similarly extinct. Switch will happen in the same fashion: people will get "poor alternative" because they can not afford "good one" and eventually the "good alternative" will be useless. Prioces for IPv4 will start raising in the coming years, so there are no need to worry: people will upgrade. They are not stupid. But before that happens price of IPv4 address should become high enough to make these 2x hardware prices cheap by comparison. It didn't happen yet: "white IP" is sold for $2-$10 per month today. It's not nearly high enough to induce change. But times are changing.
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 27, 2011 2:35 UTC (Thu) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]
> 20 years down the road IPv4 user will be similarly extinct.
That I can believe. The transition plan to it is still shit.
Well, sure. Posted Jan 27, 2011 9:05 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] > 20 years down the road IPv4 user will be similarly extinct. Well, sure. I mean: people spent lots of reasources trying to invent some "perfect" transition plan (DJB's way is only one alternative - and it's just as stupid as all other ones), but in the end there are only two ways: But for the market way to work IPv4 needs to be significantly more painful then it's now. Prices for "white IP" should be around $100/month at least, not $2-$10 like they are now. I'm not sure we'll reach this stage any time soon. More likely some ecosystem will adopt IPv6 first and the snowball will go from there. Will this be an LTE or something else? We'll see.
Who will pay - this is the question... Posted Jan 27, 2011 7:26 UTC (Thu) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link]
"Price difference between IPv4 and IPv6 is exactly two times."
I don't buy your logic. If IPv6 traffic right now is <1 % of the total traffic and probably won't grow very rapidly any time soon, why does it matter that this year's router model is half as slow forwarding IPv6 packets?
Because today's model is the best available Posted Jan 27, 2011 9:09 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] If you enable IPv6 you reduce not only number of packets you can process. You reduce number of routes you can process, etc. And about <1%... this is red herring: if the IPv6 traffic is <1% and you expect to have at on this point for a long time - then why bother (do you really expect significant revenuy from this <1% traffic?), but if you expect that this proportion will grow then IPv6 support means real money. The best alternative is to prepare contingency plans and wait till they will be needed - and this is exactly whay most ISPs are doing.
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