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About Those 882 Novell Patents: This is Where OIN Comes In (Groklaw)

Groklaw takes a look at the sale of Novell's patents and how the Open Invention Network (OIN) fits in. "Here's how it works. The patents of OIN members are licensed to each other royalty-free in perpetuity. Even on a sale, the license remains in force for all pre-existing members. If you are a member of OIN prior to the closing on the Novell deal, then, you are covered. The proposed closing date is January 23rd, so you still have time to join OIN and get the benefit of the license to those patents. Then, if Microsoft shows up at your door, you can say, "Thanks, but no thanks. I already have a license." So here's what it all adds up to, by my reading: if ever you were thinking of joining the Open Invention Network, this is the sensible time to do it, as long as you get it done before this sale closes and that door shuts with respect to the Novell patents."

to post comments

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 7, 2010 21:30 UTC (Tue) by SilverWave (guest, #55000) [Link] (20 responses)

Just saying its getting a little old, lets try to keep it civil and focused please?

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 8, 2010 1:02 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> Groklaw 3.2.1...

Is 3.2.1 Groklaw's or the attack on Groklaw's version number? When will 4.0 be out? ;)

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 8, 2010 12:30 UTC (Wed) by stumbles (guest, #8796) [Link]

I see, the truth of the matter hurts.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 9, 2010 6:56 UTC (Thu) by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048) [Link] (17 responses)

No attack from me at this point. At this stage I simply haven't yet formed an opinion as to the consequences of an OIN member/licensee selling patents to a third party. I analyzed the OIN license agreement several months ago with a view to its scope and will sooner or later also look into this kind of scenario more closely. I know that the OIN agreement doesn't contain a clear-cut, straightforward definition of all of the consequences of such a move. I previously criticized that shortcoming in connection with the question of whether a Sun membership in OIN would have made a difference for the Oracle vs. Google dispute. But I don't want to jump to conclusions now for the scenario of a sale of patents and/or a possible termination of Novell's membership (I commented on that theory toward the end of this post).

Even some of the people who disagree with my positions usually recognize that my blog is always based on thorough research, so I won't take a right-or-wrong position on that GroklXX article prematurely. I can just tlak about OIN issues I've already analyzed.

I have recently been too busy with my analysis of smartphone patent disputes (such as this slideshow visualization of Apple's fight with Android, a Linux context in which OIN doesn't appear to have any impact whatsoever). So for the time being I neither rule out that GroklXX is right nor that it may be wrong given that it also told its readers an unspeakable untruth about IBM's patent pledge, quoting from a speech given long before the pledge and in a different context, claiming that it was a statement "when [IBM] announced the patent pledge", in order to claim a limitation the pledge doesn't have. The pledge stands on its own. So since there's a precedent of GroklXX telling the opposite of the truth concerning a patent license grant of a somewhat similar nature and refused to correct that bad mistake even when readers pointed it out, it could have been intentionally wrong again.

What I can say for sure is that even in the event that GroklXX should be right about the "perpetuity" claim concerning OIN's cross license, the arbitrarily defined scope that I mentioned before -- which is why some absolutely essential parts of Android fall outside the OIN's scope -- would be a severe limitation regardless of the duration of a license grant.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 9, 2010 12:01 UTC (Thu) by sdalley (subscriber, #18550) [Link] (2 responses)

What does GroklXX stand for?

I must admit I hadn't heard of them ...

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 9, 2010 12:21 UTC (Thu) by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048) [Link] (1 responses)

What does GroklXX stand for?

I don't want to get into a detailed debate of that here, but you can find an explanation of the terminology there.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Jan 24, 2011 2:25 UTC (Mon) by designerfx (guest, #72536) [Link]

where, oh where shall we begin.

How about you call Groklaw Groklaw, instead of GroklXX like it is?

We don't call you Full of Much BS, even though some may liken you that way. Nor do we call you anything other than your initials, or your first or last name. You are not Nazgul, and we have apparently more respect for you than you do for the community, it seems.

There are plenty of derogatory comments around here Florian, and yours are indeed the ones firing the first and last salvo, every single time.

Next, let's get to the "legal blogs hold me in high regard" lie. It's been noted that a few legal blogs which are not LEGAL ANALYSIS blogs. So these are not ones that represent a check of factual legal knowledge, or actual analysis by lawyers. It'd be one thing if Volokh quoted you for a factual statement. Volokh actually represents a lot. If that happens, then a real legal blog likes you.

you got quoted in an editorial, someone linked to an image you made, and *that's it.*

So no, legal blogs don't like you, in fact you don't even exist to them. Not any more than I do. Not a single legal blog that isn't sponsored by you or Maureen O'gara would ever put your writings out there without being misinformed or refusing to correct when they find you make an inaccurate statement. Get quoted by RIAA vs the people (ray beckerman) or volokh, and then you actually have something which puts weight behind your claim.

So, are you going to say this is legal advice, or are you going to beat a drum claiming that legal people hold you in imaginary high regards, which in fact adds validity to absolutely nothing, because we have no proof of anyone actually confirming what you say.

It also holds water that nothing you say has ANY substance unless it actually means something in court. Are you a lawyer? are you a judge? Are your suggestions of sound legal merit? Answer me all of these with a straight face, if you dare.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 10, 2010 1:31 UTC (Fri) by SilverWave (guest, #55000) [Link] (13 responses)

And like clock work the predicted attack :-(

Couldn't help yourself could you?

sigh.

Your repeated use of "GroklXX" is an attack.

Whatever your disagreements with PJ this is going too far.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 10, 2010 5:23 UTC (Fri) by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048) [Link] (12 responses)

Your repeated use of "GroklXX" is an attack.

No, "XX" means everyone can substitute for those two X's what they feel is appropriate.

Whatever your disagreements with PJ this is going too far.

The word "disagreements" is a euphemism in this case. I have no problem at all with disagreements. I disagreed multiple times with Jon Corbet (and likely will disagree many more times in the future) but never had a reason to doubt his fair intentions when he writes or moderates this site. I also disagree on some key issues with certain open source journalists such as Steven Vaughan-Nichols and Dana Blankenhorn. But those are really just "disagreements", while the GroklXX problem is a more fundamental one.

When a site has demonstrably and repeatedly told untruths that are lightyears outside of any room for legal interpretation, and when those untruths clearly have a certain attack vector in common (so they can't be a coincidence), it's not just about "disagreements" but about fundamental distrust and disgust.

The problem is that many people are easily misled in connection with those legal issues. Patent law, competition law etc. are all complicated by themselves and even more so where they intersect. I believe that it's essential to tell people the truth where it's a matter of fact and not a matter of opinion, including unpleasant facts such as the outcome of Bilski, where PatentlyO, the leading US patent law blog, now also looks at a ruling and quotes that "[I]nventions with specific applications or improvements to technologies in the marketplace are not likely to be so abstract that they override the statutory language and framework of the Patent Act". And above that: "Focusing on the category of abstract ideas, the court noted the Supreme Court's admonition in Bilski not to provide a rigid formula or definition for abstractness." I said back in June that Bilski didn't do away with software patents in any way, not to any significant extent, and there you have it. So those who told the community the opposite in recent months did it a disservice, and I a website that tells the community the opposite of the actual legal situation on a number of such issues cannot legitimately claim the word "law" in its name and cannot expect me to propagate such a mislabeling. So I have the right to replace the last two characters with X's.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 10, 2010 10:35 UTC (Fri) by SilverWave (guest, #55000) [Link] (11 responses)

>... it's not just about "disagreements" but about fundamental distrust and disgust.

I am amazed at such a level of vitriol given the high level of regard that Groklaw and PJ are generally held in.

I have perviouly found Groklaw articles to be very accurate and informative, e.g re SCO etc..

PJ seems mostly to see to the heart of the matter.

For instance recently you and PJ seemed to have opposite interpretations re TurboHercules.

Given the latest news from the The Financial Times: "Microsoft buys stake in IBM accuser", I think we can safely say that you were mistaken and that PJ called it correctly from day one.

So I would again call on you to stop the divisive attacks on Groklaw and concentrate on the real enemy.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 10, 2010 10:53 UTC (Fri) by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048) [Link] (9 responses)

given the high level of regard that Groklaw and PJ are generally held in.

Sounds a little bit like the logic of "a million flies can't be wrong." ;-))

My blog, although pretty new, is also held in high regard, particularly in the US legal community. Law.com recently pointed to "a really smart post at FOSS Patents" and the leading US patent law blog, PatentlyO, links to my "nice diagram" of Apple's patent fights with HTC and Motorola. So "high regard" can't serve as a defense for GroklXX.

I have perviouly found Groklaw articles to be very accurate and informative, e.g re SCO etc..

I didn't follow the SCO case in enough detail to be able to tell whether GroklXX's reporting was accurate. I kept my fingers crossed for the defendants all the time, and so did GroklXX, and I understand GroklXX predicted SCO's defeat early on, but I don't know whether it got all the facts right (one can arrive at the right prediction for all the wrong reasons).

For instance recently you and PJ seemed to have opposite interpretations re TurboHercules.
Given the latest news from the The Financial Times: "Microsoft buys stake in IBM accuser", I think we can safely say that you were mistaken and that PJ called it correctly from day one.

Sorry, but this is a non sequitur.

The IBM threat letters I published went back to March 2010 and November 2009 -- long before that Microsoft investment in TurboHercules apparently happened.

I never cared about whether Microsoft was or might be or would be involved with that case. I cared about the issue. I can't see that PJ would be right, particularly with her lie about IBM's pledge (with that speech that had nothing to do with the pledge and predated it by a number of months), just because of what now appears to be some kind of strategic partnership between that company and Microsoft.

Also, PJ believed that there was no antitrust issue there, but the European Commission launched formal investigations in July. So concerning the merits of the competition issues, time has proven me right. The Commission doesn't launch formal investigations (after taking a close look before doing so) without serious issues. The launch of an investigation doesn't mean that a company is guilty, but it does mean that rational people have good reasons to be profoundly concerned, just like I was.

So I would again call on you to stop the divisive attacks on Groklaw and concentrate on the real enemy.

It depends on what enemy you mean. The enemy I focus on primarily is disinformation because it prevents people from taking the right decisions and finding the best solutions.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 10, 2010 12:18 UTC (Fri) by SilverWave (guest, #55000) [Link] (8 responses)

Well lets be quite blunt then:

Are you or have you been an agent of Microsoft?

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 10, 2010 12:26 UTC (Fri) by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048) [Link] (1 responses)

Well lets be quite blunt then:
Are you or have you been an agent of Microsoft?

I've received similar questions before and I will never answer such questions about any company. If I have relationships to announce, I will do so, such as when I worked with Monty on the MySQL merger case. There's nothing that I'd have to announce in the TurboHercules context.

It would be helpful if you could comment on what I wrote about the actual issues. Frankly, even if PJ were right with whatever conspiracy theories, what difference would it make? That still wouldn't justify telling people lies about IBM's patent pledge or misassessing the antitrust issues involved. I'd sign a deal any day of the week under which PJ would be right on all of the conspiracy theories and I would be right on all of the actual issues.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 10, 2010 15:07 UTC (Fri) by SilverWave (guest, #55000) [Link]

>If I have relationships to announce, I will do so[...]

Well to help us remember your allegiance when you do, perhaps I could suggest the following helpful coding, (along the lines already suggested by yourself for Groklaw), e.g. FlorianMuellerXX where the XX are substituted with your current allegiance.

Until then you could be referred to as FlorianMuellerXX in posts and we can just mentally fill in the blanks ourselves for the time being, based on the most likely organisation for you to be working for.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 10, 2010 15:04 UTC (Fri) by fuhchee (guest, #40059) [Link] (5 responses)

At least Florian is unquestionably a real person.
PJ only seems to have an electronic public existence.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 11, 2010 8:50 UTC (Sat) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (4 responses)

so her public appearance last week was a fake then?

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 11, 2010 9:08 UTC (Sat) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (2 responses)

ops, I meant to type last month.

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Posted Dec 11, 2010 12:11 UTC (Sat) by fuhchee (guest, #40059) [Link] (1 responses)

[citation needed]

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Posted Dec 11, 2010 15:26 UTC (Sat) by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048) [Link]

He won't be able to present a citation because "PJ" is an avatar and has never appeared at any public event, not even last month's EFF awards ceremony as I explained in this reply here.

'PJ' is an avatar

Posted Dec 11, 2010 15:25 UTC (Sat) by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048) [Link]

so her public appearance last week was a fake then?

You corrected this with a follow-on message and meant "last month". So you meant the EFF awards. However, you are wrong. You can see here that "PJ" didn't attend the ceremony. Groklaw submitted a video. The EFF had a total of four winners. The other three accepted their award in person and their pictures were shown on the EFF website before the awards ceremony -- "PJ"'s picture has to date not been published anywhere on the Internet, nor is there any proof of "her" having attended any public event.

On page 20 of this document I expressed my views of the fact that "PJ" will probably never appear in person, given that "she" didn't even do it for the EFF ceremony.

Waiting for the predictable FM attack on Groklaw 3.2.1...

Posted Dec 13, 2010 13:35 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

I have perviouly found Groklaw articles to be very accurate and informative, e.g re SCO etc..

That may well be the case, but Groklaw also appears to operate a tricky mechanism that can hide the contributions of unwelcome (to the site managers) commenters from every visitor except the commenter in question, without pointing this out to anyone concerned – neither the commenter nor the rest of the readership.

Personally, I find that any site that prefers this sort of tactics to addressing criticism openly and constructively is not a site that I want to frequent.

About Those 882 Novell Patents: This is Where OIN Comes In (Groklaw)

Posted Dec 8, 2010 13:40 UTC (Wed) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link] (3 responses)

And if I'm not a member, what is the ION good for?

About Those 882 Novell Patents: This is Where OIN Comes In (Groklaw)

Posted Dec 8, 2010 13:42 UTC (Wed) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link] (2 responses)

Grr... OIN, not ION. Ion is said to be a fine WM.

About Those 882 Novell Patents: This is Where OIN Comes In (Groklaw)

Posted Dec 8, 2010 14:41 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (1 responses)

If you choose not to become a member, you don't get any benefits. That is of no surprise.

About Those 882 Novell Patents: This is Where OIN Comes In (Groklaw)

Posted Dec 8, 2010 16:01 UTC (Wed) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]

Jein. Since the members promise to not sue each other or "the Linux System":
Patents owned by Open Invention Network® are available royalty-free to any company, institution or individual that agrees not to assert its patents against the Linux System.
(http://www.openinventionnetwork.com/about.php) that should lessen the lawsuit liability some immeasurable amount, even if you never join the oin yourself.

About Those 882 Novell Patents: This is Where OIN Comes In (Groklaw)

Posted Dec 9, 2010 6:22 UTC (Thu) by jmorris42 (guest, #2203) [Link]

So we have a flag day coming, and after that no new company can appear without worrying about getting the ever lovin' poop sued outta them?

That doesn't sound like much of a future.


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