One sure way to stir up Linux users and developers is to propose replacing a tried-and-true technology with an up-and-coming technology. Especially replacing something as crucial as X, which is what Mark Shuttleworth suggested might happen on Ubuntu, with Wayland taking its place. The response to Shuttleworth's post, along comments and questions on development mailing lists since, show that Wayland is not well-understood in the larger Linux community. Moving to Wayland isn't as far-fetched as one might initially think.
So what is it? Wayland is not, as it was initially reported, a "new X Server" for Linux. Wayland is the name for the protocol and the MIT-licensed implementation of a compositor that can run as a standalone display server, or under X as a client. Most importantly, Wayland (when running on its own) removes a few layers of complexity.
As explained in the Wayland architecture document, X runs on top of the Linux kernel and, in conjunction with a compositor, it is in effect adding an extra layer between the kernel, hardware, and compositor. With X, windows and contents are sent to a separate buffer and then "composited" together into the frame buffer by Compiz, Kwin, or another compositing window manager. With Wayland, all of this will happen in one display manager.
Wayland works directly on top of the kernel, and lets the clients handle rendering directly without the intermediate layer. Wayland uses direct rendering through OpenGL, or OpenGL ES. X imposes additional layers, and that causes a performance hit. As Shuttleworth wrote when tapping Wayland as the future for Ubuntu and Unity, "we don't believe X is setup to deliver the user experience we want, with super-smooth graphics and effects."
The initial reactions and discussion about Wayland had more than a tinge of concern. Much of which based on fairly breezy reports about Wayland as a replacement for X for Ubuntu. As Andrew Haley points out on the Fedora devel list, there's no immediate cause for alarm:
It looked like a bunch of kiddies who had never used remote X applications had decided we didn't need to do that anymore, and it was more important to get kewl features like smooth scrolling and rotating 3D whatnots. It seems that isn't true, and we don't need to worry. The lunatics have not, in fact, taken over the asylum.
Yes, the asylum remains in competent hands. Wayland is not a new idea. Wayland started as a "secret" project by Kristian Høgsberg in 2008. Høgsberg's creation was outed by Phoronix, caused a brief wave of excitement in Linux circles, and then went back to largely being ignored by most of the Linux world.
But X folks have been thinking about Wayland, at least occasionally, for some time. Last year at the Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit, Keith Packard talked about turning "the graphics stack upside down" by moving device configuration out of X and into the kernel, which would pave the way for other systems like Wayland. Packard also hinted that a post-X era may be in the offing while at this year's Linux Plumbers Conference, and mentioned Wayland as a possible replacement — with X running as a client.
Why not simply extend X, yet again? It's been extended to add all sorts of features never envisioned when it was first developed. Wayland is an option "of pushing X out of the hotpath between clients and the hardware and making it a compatibility option," as described in the FAQ. X running as a client is a particularly important feature. As Adam Jackson points out on the Fedora devel mailing list, X applications only need be ported to behave as native Wayland clients. Otherwise they can run within Wayland within a nested X server "and you wouldn't ever know the difference." Note that Wayland can also run as an X client, which allows for development and testing during the transition.
It may be beneficial to look at Wayland as an opportunity rather than a potential problem. For example, while many games now run well on X, it is not particularly friendly for fullscreen 3D games. Høgsberg indicates that thought has already gone into the specific problems of fullscreen games and how to address problems like modesetting and handling the pointer.
Wayland is also poised to support GPU hotswapping, something that X does not currently support. As more hardware ships with more than one GPU, which is intended to help with power savings, users will want Linux to support switching between the GPUs.
But we're not there yet. The big problem, of course, is that Wayland is not ready for prime time — or even early morning between infomercials. Wayland may see an influx of interest thanks to the attention it's getting, but there's a long way between vision and reality at the moment.
As Packard mentioned during his LPC talk, input is another problem for an alternative display system. Key mapping, accessibility work (using the keyboard for mouse movement, for instance) and handling more complex input devices like touchpads, all need to be addressed.
Aside from a general lack of readiness for Wayland itself, Wayland also lacks drivers. Nvidia has already explicitly said it has no interest in Wayland, though Nouveau may be able to take up the slack there. Wayland can use the open source KMS drivers for ATI, Intel, and Nvidia — but what about the new crop of video hardware coming with ARM-based devices? Here we have a new set of video hardware without open source drivers or existing efforts to create them.
There's also the question of who's going to do the work to ready Wayland. The work on Wayland up until now — and in the foreseeable future — has been on Red Hat and Intel's payroll. Høgsberg was a Red Hat employee when he first started Wayland, and is now working for Intel. Canonical doesn't have any resources currently assigned to work on Wayland. Canonical's Ted Gould has set up an import of Wayland's git tree into Launchpad to make it easier to build packages. But Gould says he's unaware of anyone directly working on Wayland who is on Canonical's payroll:
Most of our effort there is ensuring that the new stuff we are building (Unity, uTouch, etc.) is compatible with a post-X11 future. It seems like momentum is definitely switching in that direction with even Keith implying it at Plumber's.
Personally, my biggest worry with Wayland is graphics drivers, and I think that was partially what Mark's blog post was trying to help with. Establish a direction at a high level to let other companies know where we're going. I hope it's successful, otherwise the switch (which seems inevitable at this point) will be very painful.
Users who are itching to get hands on bleeding-edge Wayland builds can look at the compile instructions, or add the "xorg crack pushers" PPAs for Ubuntu to install Wayland on Maverick (10.10) or Natty (11.04). Breakage is quite likely. Developers interested in pitching in are welcome to do so. Wayland is part of freedesktop.org, and the git repository is open.
But it will be some time before anyone needs to make the switch. With the renewed attention caused by Shuttleworth's post, Høgsberg has started working more actively on Wayland again. But while Høgsberg isn't quite going it solo, there's not a lot of commits from other developers yet. Shuttleworth indicated that it would be a year before Ubuntu could seriously consider switching to Wayland. Fedora will probably package Wayland for F15, but when it will be default is up in the air. Jackson says the "cabal" of Fedora graphics folks "don't even have a complete list of transition criteria yet, let alone a timeframe for switching the default." It would seem that replacing X has momentum, but we're a long way away from making a switch.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 10:09 UTC (Thu) by rwmj (guest, #5474) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 13:47 UTC (Thu) by DiegoCG (subscriber, #9198) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 13:51 UTC (Thu) by rwmj (guest, #5474) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 15:41 UTC (Thu) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]
For a real example, Windows RDP supports single app remoteing...and they sure don't use X11. It works damn well -- better than X11 forwarding.
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc753844(WS.10).aspx
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 16:38 UTC (Thu) by rwmj (guest, #5474) [Link]
Pixels are not the same shape on every display. Colours aren't balanced the same way.
The application really needs to talk to the display to find out these things, which is exactly how X works, and how the other technologies you mentioned do not. (I should also mention that actual rootless VNC/whatever that *I can use today* does not exist).
Rich.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 17:42 UTC (Thu) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]
But RDP gets a lot of other things right, which Unix/X11 forwarding doesn't: sound devices, filesystem, and printers are all shared from the desktop client to the server.
Yes, sure, those are all "simple" additions on top of X11 (or perhaps beside it). Just like color calibration and pixel shape are to RDP.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 23:52 UTC (Thu) by intgr (subscriber, #39733) [Link]
You forgot performance. I've tried using X11 forwarding over SSH on a 100Mbit LAN. Maybe I'm doing somethng wrong, but I always found the performance to be abysmal. They say it's GTK's fault, but what's the point of a feature if major toolkits can't find developers to work on properly supporting it? As it stands, I couldn't care less about X11's network transparency.
RDP, on the other hand, flies even over a regular DSL connection. That's more important than getting color profiles right.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 21, 2010 17:36 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
X is really rather good over LANs. It's latency that kills it.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 2:21 UTC (Fri) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
sound is an issue in some cases.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 23, 2010 5:06 UTC (Tue) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]
Filesystems (and printers) aren't otherwise *easily* shared from client to server, in a way such that the app running on the central server can access your client's filesystems and printers.
Of course you can turn on NFS on your client, set things up so that it's securely and encrypted, become root on the server, mount your client's file share...then undo all that again when you stop using the remote app. But that's anything but easy. MS Remote Desktop makes it *easy*. (I suspect that functionality is not actually part of the display protocol, but rather just using a tunnel through the same encrypted connection, but still it's very nice for the client to handle all of that)
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 11:20 UTC (Thu) by mti (subscriber, #5390) [Link]
Is there a big performance problem with having both an X server and a compositing manager?
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 13:49 UTC (Thu) by DiegoCG (subscriber, #9198) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 13:52 UTC (Thu) by rwmj (guest, #5474) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 4:28 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
If you want to keep running X then do so. There is nothing incompatible or wrong with using Wayland on your desktop and X apps on your server.
The way we do X now is kinda a throwback and nobody would do it this way if they had a chance to start over. It's like designing a operating system were your web browser is required to have the ability to fiddle with bits on your PCI buss. It's a network protocol and there is no good reason why your display software needs to drive your hardware.
Anyways who the hell runs any GUI anything from their servers? I have no less then 3 different computers of my own personal use that I have at a few places at over the internet and I don't use X on any of them.
For work I have to regularly deal with well over a thousand different Redhat boxes and I have yet to give a crap about any sort of remote GUI access... for any purpose at all.
I understand this is not unusual and I like X over SSH, but the way people are talking whenever this subject comes up they are acting like X11 over SSH is absolutely critical for Linux on the server and that having to use anything other then Xorg xserver sitting on their hardware to display it is completely unacceptable.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 8:57 UTC (Fri) by rwmj (guest, #5474) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 14:15 UTC (Fri) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 15:06 UTC (Fri) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link]
Anyways who the hell runs any GUI anything from their servers? I have no less then 3 different computers of my own personal use that I have at a few places at over the internet and I don't use X on any of them.Your personal incredulity is not a rationale for cutting a feature that many people do use, as amply demonstrated by other comments on these tiresome threads. You have one style; others have theirs.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 22, 2010 15:42 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]
This seems like such a complete non-sequitur. What are you talking about?
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 23, 2010 3:06 UTC (Tue) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 23, 2010 8:11 UTC (Tue) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 23, 2010 11:29 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]
Not really. It's been mentioned, but mostly people have been talking about RDP and SPICE because VNC is unlikely to ever be a good protocol for transparent remote access.
>but VNC requires that you have the entire desktop installed on the system you are accessing.
This is so silly. We're talking about software that doesn't yet exist picking a protocol for network transparency; why would anyone assume that it would directly copy implementation details of existing software that's designed for a different purpose?
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 14:46 UTC (Thu) by mti (subscriber, #5390) [Link]
Or one could let the compositing manager run in the same thread as the X server.
Btw, how expensive is a context switch compared to the actual drawing?
Great stuff
Posted Nov 18, 2010 12:46 UTC (Thu) by Velmont (guest, #46433) [Link]
Also, I'm really looking forward to some performance improvements and a nice multitouch future.
Working on a computer all day long, I've become increasingly frustrated with its bad input system. Keyboard is very nice for writing code, but when working with big drawings/design/CSS and HTML (etc), it just doesn't cut it. I'd like to have a big screen and use my hands however I want. Do things quicker and not feel limited by the computer.
Great stuff
Posted Nov 19, 2010 15:14 UTC (Fri) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link]
Sure. I want that too. But Wayland won't do a thing to give you these features. In fact, it'll set us all back quite a bit because we'll have to go through the "OOG THINK FIRE HOT" stage of graphics stack development all over again. If the Wayland people were serious about improving the desktop experience, they'd focus on toolkits and applications. They'd propose incremental improvements via X11 extensions as countless hard-working, serious, and professional people have done. Instead, Wayland proponents are wasting everyone's time by foisting an inferior solution to a solved problem on hapless users of major distributions.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 14:13 UTC (Thu) by ortalo (subscriber, #4654) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 14:26 UTC (Thu) by ortalo (subscriber, #4654) [Link]
Kernel fb support may not necessarily imply that the graphics hardware is documented enough to support advanced features (esp. wrt performance). OpenGL ES some 3D support, but doesn't it also implies a restricted set of advanced graphics operation?
Maybe I am underestimating KMS + OpenGL/ES. That's a really pretty good start certainly: but is it *enough* to provide the experience that people like Shuttleworth seems to expect?
If no, how are we going to convince manufacturers to provide better documentation of their hardware? (X as a project was doing a decent job at that - probably in part due to its maturity and overall success.)
We need to ensure that life after X will provide us with something really worth the effort to switching (not even counting the network transparency feature drop - which I would personnally linger for).
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 4:53 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
Think about it:
Are you going to be happy that Linux cannot use the processor in your computer and get the same level of performance as other OSes without proprietary drivers?
The things to remember is:
The GPU is now part of the computer architecture. It's not just about driving graphics acceleration anymore. It's increasingly used for a wider variety of workloads and GPUs are now being integrated into processors themselves. Both AMD and Intel now are releasing processors that include GPUs on die. The idea that Linux cannot support the processors being shipped natively and requires proprietary drivers to get acceptable performance is, hopefully, unacceptable for most people.
So GPU drivers are still needed. Newer solutions like Gallium3D are needed. Were the drivers can support multiple APIs effectively. This is different from X model were you have to have a DDX driver for 2D and 3D DRI driver for 3D. This is really quite a broken design, especially since modern hardware no longer has any 2D acceleration except through emulation support and that is going away eventually, too.
> Maybe I am underestimating KMS + OpenGL/ES. That's a really pretty good start certainly: but is it *enough* to provide the experience that people like Shuttleworth seems to expect?
That is just what is needed to drive Wayland itself. Minimal requirements.
With this approach the display manager is just another application and is not very special in terms of what it requires to operate. Other applications can use different APIs for acceleration. Wayland is just a application that collects their output and puts it into a single image that is displayed on the screen.
> If no, how are we going to convince manufacturers to provide better documentation of their hardware? (X as a project was doing a decent job at that - probably in part due to its maturity and overall success.)
Intel is supplying open source drivers. That's right about 70-80% of the desktop market right there. If all we gave a crap about was providing support for the majority of potential users they could stop right there.
AMD/ATI are not providing their own open source drivers and are also giving out documentation. And Nvidia is being asshats as usual about being open, but the open source driver is progressing at a good pace regardless.
For the desktop and server market that covers 99% of all situations. Via is still lurking in the wings, but that's about it.
For embedded systems it is much more difficult. But the Wayland model offers significant advantages for them in terms of efficiency and memory footprint over X.
Think about why Android does not use X.
> We need to ensure that life after X will provide us with something really worth the effort to switching (not even counting the network transparency feature drop- which I would personnally linger for).
X and Wayland are not mutually exclusive.
Remember X is a network protocol and the X server just displays the output from X clients. Would you like it if your web browser had to control the hardware directly to render Web pages?
Anyways. X is not very good when compared to more modern protocols like ICA or Spice.
Nobody can do anything like:
http://www.gotomypc.com/remote_access/remote_access
With X Windows. It's just impossible. It's far too inefficient.
Look at the name at the bottom of the page. Notice that: Citrix?
They make a huge amount of money providing support for thin clients and remote applications for corporations all over the planet. Do you know why they can make so much money?
Partially because X sucks so badly. There are ways to deal with remote applications that are probably better.
With SPICE they can get performance better with Linux-KVM then ICA through the use of virtualization and special 'virtual' hardware. So they are going at a level much lower then X, VNC, RDP, or ICA runs at and they are getting better results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRliEV7GnF0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvfkj8V6ylM
I don't know how that can be applied to Wayland, but certainly something can be figured out. They made ICA and RDP work for Windows after all! Anything is possible!
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 9:08 UTC (Fri) by ortalo (subscriber, #4654) [Link]
Concerning VNC/RDP/ICA etc. Well, from my own experience (I have been working for +5 years in an organization that made a general switch to Citrix 10 years ago), Citrix success is not only tied to the display client efficiency.
It is primarily the administration infrastructure for Citrix servers and the (supposedly good) idea of "thin clients" (ie. no administration overhead on client PCs) that seems to be the key issue for IT managers selecting such architectures. (In some sense, it is also a sort of reversing the movement towards distributed computing of the nineties to go back to centralized computing.)
The display client efficiency was a requirement, but from what I have observed, it was not alone the key feature for selecting that solution.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 10:44 UTC (Fri) by job (guest, #670) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 20, 2010 18:02 UTC (Sat) by mfedyk (guest, #55303) [Link]
also lets stop talking about x twiddling bits on the hardware. with KMS that's not happening anymore and wayland won't work without KMS anyway.
I think we are going to regret our wayland future.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 20:17 UTC (Thu) by alonz (subscriber, #815) [Link]
Would it be considered extremely rude to confess a lack of surprise at Canonical's lack of contributions to a technology it claims to be “The next major transition for Unity”?
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 18, 2010 21:17 UTC (Thu) by jeremiah (subscriber, #1221) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 10:50 UTC (Fri) by job (guest, #670) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 14:29 UTC (Fri) by rvfh (subscriber, #31018) [Link]
Would it not be possible for Wayland to be designed to use X drivers? This way we would not break compatibility with older/newer hardware?
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 23:43 UTC (Fri) by JohnLenz (subscriber, #42089) [Link]
The problem is closed source drivers. If the closed source drivers would be modified to not require X but run directly on the hardware, then wayland would work for them too with no changes to wayland needed. But no one can see the code so no one knows.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 15:01 UTC (Fri) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link]
For Christ's sake, you Jacobins complain that "nobody" uses network transparency, then you go on to tout *GPU HOTSWAPPING*? That's brazen and maddening. It smacks of other motivations.
I can't believe you people aim to utterly castrate the Linux desktop for... this. You still can't explain exactly what it is about X11 that you find so distasteful. You can't demonstrate what aspects of its architecture cause local performance issues or come up with benchmarks to support your dubious assertions about network transparency harming performance. X11 could support every feature you mention; every previous challenge has been successfully met with an X11 extension. Your particular case is no different.
It seems as if you're entirely motivated by a simplistic rejection of the old in favor of the new ---- no matter what the relative merits of the two. Wayland has nothing to do with improving the state of the desktop and everything to do with a bunch of cretins burning down the great old edifice of Unix out ignorance and fear. It's as if you think X11 is some evil demon that need to be driven out. It'd be ridiculous if distributors weren't listening, but they seem to be full of adherents to this asinine, reactionary religion.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 19, 2010 15:56 UTC (Fri) by glisse (subscriber, #44837) [Link]
Truth is current Xorg community want X to be out of the picture and wayland seems like the perfect solutions.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 20, 2010 19:49 UTC (Sat) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link]
What part of that requires ditching the X protocol and architecture?
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 20, 2010 20:29 UTC (Sat) by glisse (subscriber, #44837) [Link]
So now with a compositor here is what happens :
app->toolkit->render window(gtk/qt/cairo ...)->upload to X as a pixmap (memcpy new buffer allocation + others overhead)->compositor use it has a texture->screen
Wayland:
app->toolkit->render window(gtk/qt/cairo...)->give buffer id(ie send an int)->compositor use it as texture->screen
Suddenly you removed all the X protocol, all the memcpy non sense, all the painfull path to try to make it right in the DDX. And now life is beautifull. I am not even mentioning app half rendered and others rendering non sense of X.
X is painfull to accelerate and even more to get it right, i have been writing X driver for few years now and what i can tell you is that i prefer writing a GL driver than an X driver.
But please if you feel X is the right way come join us and wrote driver to truely use GPU with X.
Bottom line is if all X people says that they want wayland then it just means it's what you will get in your distribution sooner or later unless new people step up and shows all the X people how X was supposed to be done.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 20, 2010 20:45 UTC (Sat) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link]
Tearing can be solve not too badly with compositorSo you concede that tearing can be fixed within the X protocol.
please feel free to show me how to do itYou can do it with a novel technique called double buffering. I mean, it was only invented in the 1980s: you may not have heard of it yet.
app->toolkit->render window(gtk/qt/cairo ...)->upload to X as a pixmap (memcpy new buffer allocation + others overhead)->compositor use it has a texture->screenCairo and other toolkits can render directly using XRENDER or OpenGL. The XRENDER and OpenGL operations are sent symbolically to the X server, which then hands them off directly to the GPU. There's no client-side pixmap and memcpy involved. You're either disingenuous or ignorant.
X is painfull to accelerate and even more to get it righBoo hoo, programming is hard! Let's burn the place down instead.
wrote driver to truely use GPU with XWhat specific operations that are not accelerated today would be accelerated under your proposed architecture?
i prefer writing a GL driver than an X driverYour statement is nonsense. What's the difference? When writing an X driver, you don't have to care about it being for X per se. A graphics driver deals with the same primitives in any environment: mode setting and acceleration. That's why nVidia can use the same codebase for its drivers on all platforms.
if all X people says that they want waylandIf that's the case, then the X people have lost their minds.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 20, 2010 23:55 UTC (Sat) by glisse (subscriber, #44837) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 22, 2010 0:32 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]
Have you contributed any code to X? If you actually do have real-world experience with this codebase, then I am definitely interested in what you have to say. But if your point is that someone else can fix everything, I can only conclude that your shrill opinion carries very little water at all.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 20, 2010 18:48 UTC (Sat) by mfedyk (guest, #55303) [Link]
thank you, I couldn't have said it better. hopefully people will come to their senses
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 23, 2010 1:33 UTC (Tue) by nlucas (subscriber, #33793) [Link]
If the implementation is done right no one will notice. The network transparency will remain as good or better than before, so why all this hostility?
Sure, it can be another Pulse Audio or KDE 4 breakage, but that seems just to be the preferred "Linux way" of improving things. On the other hand there are real gains on dropping X as the hardware controller and have it be just the X protocol controller he is good at.
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 23, 2010 3:08 UTC (Tue) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 23, 2010 11:32 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]
Is there any actual evidence of this?
The way to Wayland: Preparing for life After X
Posted Nov 25, 2010 9:22 UTC (Thu) by renox (subscriber, #23785) [Link]
Probably because implementation are never "done right" at least at the beginning, so there will be some pain at the beginning.
And some like me thinks that improving the toolkits would give much more bang (improved user experience) for the buck (development effort and transition pain).
Plus Wayland developers say "we focus on the local case, but it's easy to add network transparency", which implies that they don't really care about network transparency and pretty much ensure that it'll stay a 'second class citizen' for a long time because other things such as input event handling are really, really difficult to do well..
Copyright © 2010, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds